O Line

[Nahson]

Going to be tough next year when those 3 are gone and 3 of the 5 linemen are first time starters. With the 2 experienced guys being Palmer (at Tackle) and Emerich at Center (all 270lbs of him).

I hope the underclassmen are extremely talented kids.

IF Palmer sticks around...

If anyone wants me to expand on this, DM me.

 

[Millhouse]

Our o line seems to always play better with better talent.

We have had some pretty good lineman in here past 7-8 years when you think about it, right now not seeing much. Macky being one of them. Adam is just shooting fish in a barrel really and I'm not saying his drawers are lily white in this but I think it's a combo of 4 things. Talent, coaching, S&C (specific programs kids are following ) and changing schemes on offense. The lack of consistency never helps, 3 ol coaches in 3 years as well. Perles seemed to be pretty good. I don't think you will find a better combo of ol coach than when marrone was here but we also had some talent there to, at least talent that was coached up significantly.

Even the JUCO kid who was good for a personal foul every game would be better than any of these tackles.

That said people complained about O line when Marrone was here questioning his acumen. It's always the same. Mitch Browning was perceived as one of the best OL coaches in college football when he came here, guys bitched about him too. He did make the line lose a bunch of weight though.

Hicks makes fat guys fatter, makes skinny kids bigger/ stronger, makes athletes bigger but slower. Been that way for years. Josh Thomas, Kimmel, C jones all kids that hicks was good for, big lanky athletes/ big frames who can can put weight on. Everywhere else he is terrible, IMO

i think it's all going to be moot. how long can hicks keep doing this? he is really struggling to get around on that cane.

i think we hear too much about freeney. that guy was uniquely explosive. like in the history of man. just pack on pounds and he'd be fine, nothing was going to take away that kind of explosiveness. not the ideal test case to evaluate hicks

 

[Ringostar57]

Will Hicks as do a lot of other trainers do very little to strengthen tendons and ligaments. They all seem to concentrate on muscle and mass thus leading to ligament damage and tendon strain. Too much mass and muscle strains inadequate tendon and ligament strength leading to end of season burnout.. There has been an epidemic of these injuries the past 20 years.

 

[Orange4]

If the offensive line is this bad this year, I'm nervous for next year. Next year I think our best line will be
LT-Conway
LG-Palmer
C-Emerich
RG-Roberts
RT-Adams
I think they end up keeping Palmer at RT and put Shanley at LG but I think that line has the most potential and is the most athletic.

 

[timkay99]

If the offensive line is this bad this year, I'm nervous for next year. Next year I think our best line will be
LT-Conway
LG-Palmer
C-Emerich
RG-Roberts
RT-Adams
I think they end up keeping Palmer at RT and put Shanley at LG but I think that line has the most potential and is the most athletic.

I wonder if its a talent issue or a poor fit of talent to scheme.

Marrone wanted road graders, recruited road graders and had guys who could run block with the best of them. McDonald wanted athletic guys who could move out for screens and other things. Lester wants something in the middle.

At any rate, I personally think our talent is more to blame for OL issues then the coaching. However, I do find it bizarre to have 2 coaches trying to coach a unit that acts as one.

And what the heck happened to Denzel Ward? Know he had some injury setbacks, but he can't be jumped by Conway and Adams already can he (though Conway has seemingly for sure jumped him)?

 

[bcubs9497]

Will Hicks as do a lot of other trainers do very little to strengthen tendons and ligaments. They all seem to concentrate on muscle and mass thus leading to ligament damage and tendon strain. Too much mass and muscle strains inadequate tendon and ligament strength leading to end of season burnout.. There has been an epidemic of these injuries the past 20 years.

Not true. Hicks has had the kids, at least Steven, doing a lot of reps at lower weights. Steven describes it as some sort of "ultimate circuit". They've not maxed, or lifted real heavy very often.

 

[RMH44]

I wonder if its a talent issue or a poor fit of talent to scheme.

Marrone wanted road graders, recruited road graders and had guys who could run block with the best of them. McDonald wanted athletic guys who could move out for screens and other things. Lester wants something in the middle.

At any rate, I personally think our talent is more to blame for OL issues then the coaching. However, I do find it bizarre to have 2 coaches trying to coach a unit that acts as one.

And what the heck happened to Denzel Ward? Know he had some injury setbacks, but he can't be jumped by Conway and Adams already can he (though Conway has seemingly for sure jumped him)?

I think it has been posted that Ward has conditioning/weight issues that stem from work ethic. Hopefully the light bulb turns on real soon.

 

[bcubs9497]

Let me further say that currently, Steven's incline projected incline bench max, with dumbbells, is really close to 400 pounds.

http://exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

Him and I have both used this one rep max calculator in the past, when we lifted together, and it gets pretty close.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think it has been posted that Ward has conditioning/weight issues that stem from work ethic. Hopefully the light bulb turns on real soon.

Agreed, guy has the talent but doesn't seem to making the transition of what it takes to succeed at this level from a work ethic stand point. He was our best O Line recruit the year he came in from what I remember, people were discussing him coming and playing immediately. Certainly not ruling him out but the time is NOW

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Let me further say that currently, Steven's incline projected incline bench max, with dumbbells, is really close to 400 pounds.

http://exrx.net/Calculators/OneRepMax.html

Him and I have both used this one rep max calculator in the past, when we lifted together, and it gets pretty close.

Mine looks to be at 40 pounds...

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Not true. Hicks has had the kids, at least Steven, doing a lot of reps at lower weights. Steven describes it as some sort of "ultimate circuit". They've not maxed, or lifted real heavy very often.

That isn't good. There is no reason to max out outside of one's ego. So the fact that they aren't maxed out is good. But they should training up to their 3 rep working max (not 3 rep max) at least once a month. Also doing high reps all the time exposes you to the greater possibility of injury. The more reps you do the more likely you are to lose your form. The more you lose your form the more you increase your chances of an injury. That is true for even professional lifters. If we really are doing as you say, I wonder if that is a factor in the injuries we have seen lately.

 

[Ringostar57]

Not true. Hicks has had the kids, at least Steven, doing a lot of reps at lower weights. Steven describes it as some sort of "ultimate circuit". They've not maxed, or lifted real heavy very often.

You need short movement heavy weight for building and thickening tendons. The tendon needs to be as big/strong or slightly larger than the muscle at the point that it connects tothe muscle It's a bone>tendon >muscle connection. The tendon is the bridge. Lower weight full range motion for ligaments. The "ultimate circuit " sounds like a ligament routine. Weak tendons lead to bone/joint pain muscle strain.
Rope climbing back in the 50's at SU with Coach Ben had tendon strength and size in mind. Short rapid pull ups on the rope lifting your body weight was supposed to strengthen your elbow joints and tendons. Somewhere online there are photos of Jim Brown Ron Luciano and a couple of other players climbing in full pads just outside Archbold Stadium.

 

[timkay99]

That isn't good. There is no reason to max out outside of one's ego. So the fact that they aren't maxed out is good. But they should training up to their 3 rep working max (not 3 rep max) at least once a month. Also doing high reps all the time exposes you to the greater possibility of injury. The more reps you do the more likely you are to lose your form. The more you lose your form the more you increase your chances of an injury. That is true for even professional lifters. If we really are doing as you say, I wonder if that is a factor in the injuries we have seen lately.

I couldn't disagree with this more.

The # 1 reason to max is to establish present strength to evaluate where the player stands. This evaluates what weights the players are utilizing for the normal workout. Players need to max about once every four months at the very least.

Secondly - football is in season. They are in a maintenance phase, not a power phase. They are focused on maintaining current strength and not tiring themselves completely for practice. Once they move into the power phase (read, offseason), then they will lift as you say (low reps, high sets). High reps w/ 3 sets is the way to go in the maintenance phase.

Thirdly - amount of reps has zero impact on maintaining current form. The last 3 reps you do of any exercise should be the last 3 you can do with perfect form. Just because you do 12 reps doesn't mean that rep quality deteriorates at the end.

 

[djorange1989]

The fact that Shafer has Moreland coaching the tackles this year tells me all I need to know about Adam as an OL coach. I hope Adam has a true position where he can coach because he is a good recruiter. With that being said, our OL is way below average for an ACC line. Way too small, not quick enough, seemingly not hungry enough.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I couldn't disagree with this more.

The # 1 reason to max is to establish present strength to evaluate where the player stands. This evaluates what weights the players are utilizing for the normal workout. Players need to max about once every four months at the very least.

Secondly - football is in season. They are in a maintenance phase, not a power phase. They are focused on maintaining current strength and not tiring themselves completely for practice. Once they move into the power phase (read, offseason), then they will lift as you say (low reps, high sets). High reps w/ 3 sets is the way to go in the maintenance phase.

Thirdly - amount of reps has zero impact on maintaining current form. The last 3 reps you do of any exercise should be the last 3 you can do with perfect form. Just because you do 12 reps doesn't mean that rep quality deteriorates at the end.

You can evaluate at a working max. You should strive to increase your working max, which shows increased strength. You don't need an absolute max to find that out. You can calculate your max from your working max and then use that as the basis of your program.

That is an old way of thinking that many trainers have gone away from. The industry (athletic training not bodybuilding) is moving toward using the conjugate method year round. That won't tired you out. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squat per week will not hurt an athlete.

We are humans. Every one of us end up cheating when we lift. Even the pros. If we were machines then sure what you said is correct.

 

[timkay99]

You can evaluate at a working max. You should strive to increase your working max, which shows increased strength. You don't need an absolute max to find that out. You can calculate your max from your working max and then use that as the basis of your program.

That is an old way of thinking that many trainers have gone away from. The industry (athletic training not bodybuilding) is moving toward using the conjugate method year round. That won't tired you out. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squat per week will not hurt an athlete.

We are humans. Every one of us end up cheating when we lift. Even the pros. If we were machines then sure what you said is correct.

Working max's (especially in college) are not always truthful b/c guys do not lift to exhaustion when working out. They rarely even need a spotter to satisfy the working max. Just the reality of college kids no matter how much you tell them how much more they have in the tank.

I would be curious to see what your lift looks like (a sample week). 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squat per week will most assuredly tire you out if done correctly and to the point of exhaustion (because I am assuming you have other lifts on top of that w/ the same reps and sets).

We are not even squatting in season (which we are in fall ball now) besides explosive jump squats because many guys say that it makes them stiff and they prefer doing the flexibility type squats during the season (these are our pitchers). I have worked for two professional organizations as well (Dodgers and Nationals) and they rarely, if ever, bench or go heavy squat during the season. Granted, baseball and football are 2 different sports w/ 2 different demands, but both sports also value flexibility and it can be a challenge to incorporate flexibility in power phases.

I think you overestimate the cheating aspect of it. Our baseball players don't cheat much b/c we watch them like hawks and call them out if they aren't doing it correctly. A lay person will cheat a lot b/c no one will hold them accountable. You are more apt to cheat (IMO and from my personal experience lifting) with the heavy weights (b/c the load is so much more) vs. the lighter weights and more reps.

 

[bcubs9497]

You can evaluate at a working max. You should strive to increase your working max, which shows increased strength. You don't need an absolute max to find that out. You can calculate your max from your working max and then use that as the basis of your program.

That is an old way of thinking that many trainers have gone away from. The industry (athletic training not bodybuilding) is moving toward using the conjugate method year round. That won't tired you out. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squat per week will not hurt an athlete.

We are humans. Every one of us end up cheating when we lift. Even the pros. If we were machines then sure what you said is correct.

This one post is proof that all opinions aren't valid.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

This one post is proof that all opinions aren't valid.

The first two points are from people in the industry. So professionals who train athletes for a living. They were not created by me. The fitness industry has a lot of differentiating opinions. Heck if you ask Arnold today's bodybuilders are doing it wrong. There are people today who feel that only working strength during the offseason is a mistake. It is fine to disagree but to say that they are not valid is silly.

The third point is solely my opinion from experience and observation at the gym. I see people all the time lose form. I see people cheat all the time. Personally I find it a lot easier to concentrate as well at lower rep ranges.

 

[bcubs9497]

The first two points are from people in the industry. So professionals who train athletes for a living. They were not created by me. The fitness industry has a lot of differentiating opinions. Heck if you ask Arnold today's bodybuilders are doing it wrong. There are people today who feel that only working strength during the offseason is a mistake. It is fine to disagree but to say that they are not valid is silly.

The third point is solely my opinion from experience and observation at the gym. I see people all the time lose form. I see people cheat all the time. Personally I find it a lot easier to concentrate as well at lower rep ranges.

Lifting heavy in the middle of the season is THE DUMBEST GD THING I"VE EVER HEARD. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squats? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR !@#$#@ MIND? What "expert" would recommend a heavy 2-3 day split (e.g. 5x5s at 80% or more) then go into a game? Some ftard at the local Gold's Gym?

Sht, not even power lifters go heavy right before a meet.

Again, proof that you've no clue.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Working max's (especially in college) are not always truthful b/c guys do not lift to exhaustion when working out. They rarely even need a spotter to satisfy the working max. Just the reality of college kids no matter how much you tell them how much more they have in the tank.

I would be curious to see what your lift looks like (a sample week). 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squat per week will most assuredly tire you out if done correctly and to the point of exhaustion (because I am assuming you have other lifts on top of that w/ the same reps and sets).

We are not even squatting in season (which we are in fall ball now) besides explosive jump squats because many guys say that it makes them stiff and they prefer doing the flexibility type squats during the season (these are our pitchers). I have worked for two professional organizations as well (Dodgers and Nationals) and they rarely, if ever, bench or go heavy squat during the season. Granted, baseball and football are 2 different sports w/ 2 different demands, but both sports also value flexibility and it can be a challenge to incorporate flexibility in power phases.

I think you overestimate the cheating aspect of it. Our baseball players don't cheat much b/c we watch them like hawks and call them out if they aren't doing it correctly. A lay person will cheat a lot b/c no one will hold them accountable. You are more apt to cheat (IMO and from my personal experience lifting) with the heavy weights (b/c the load is so much more) vs. the lighter weights and more reps.

Baseball plays 6 days a week which is a lot different. Flexibility and explosiveness need to be trained as well. The trainers I follow, one of whom has trained a bunch of SU athletes, like to use the conjugate method for 1 upper body exercise a week and 1 lower. Then the rest of the work out is auxiliary doing 3 sets of higher reps targeting other muscle groups. So for instance doing 1-3 sets of heavier bench, 3 sets of lighter chest, back, shoulders, and triceps. That can include weight, body movement, plyo, etc.

The working max should be going up every 4-5 weeks. If you are going 2 sets of 5-4-3-12 as your four week rotation and you do all those comfortably then the next week you should go up 5 lbs for each. Kids have egos they will be glad to go up.

Unless you are going very light, doing 3 sets of 12 will tire you out just as much as 2 sets of 3. And if you are going very light then you are going to lose strength. Also kids can leave just as much in the tank doing 12 vs 3.

Adults and professionals can keep form easier. Kids that are 18-21 who are extremely competitive want to prove themselves. I think the ego aspect is big in the gym at all ages and bigger at younger ages. Also Hicks cannot eagle eye all 85 kids. It isn't like he is a personal trainer. He can't be by everyone's side.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Lifting heavy in the middle of the season is THE DUMBEST GD THING I"VE EVER HEARD. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squats? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR !@#$#@ MIND? What "expert" would recommend a heavy 2-3 day split (e.g. 5x5s at 80% or more) then go into a game? Some ftard at the local Gold's Gym?

Sht, not even power lifters go heavy right before a meet.

Again, proof that you've no clue.

Again these are professionals who train high school, college, and NFL players. So if you have a problem it is with them and not me. They recommend lifting ONE exercise not many ONE time a week. Sorry but if you do two sets of your working 3 rep max on Sunday or Monday it will have no effect on your performance on Saturday. They believe that you can keep your strength and even add stretch during the season. If you have a problem go write them a letter.

 

[Crusty]

Stephen Bailey article on the O Line.

 

[Crusty]

Lifting heavy in the middle of the season is THE DUMBEST GD THING I"VE EVER HEARD. 2-3 sets of heavy bench and squats? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR !@#$#@ MIND? What "expert" would recommend a heavy 2-3 day split (e.g. 5x5s at 80% or more) then go into a game? Some ftard at the local Gold's Gym?

Sht, not even power lifters go heavy right before a meet.

Again, proof that you've no clue.

If you have been on this board for any length of time, that can't possibly be the dumbest thing you ever heard.

 

[bcubs9497]

Again these are professionals who train high school, college, and NFL players. So if you have a problem it is with them and not me. They recommend lifting ONE exercise not many ONE time a week. Sorry but if you do two sets of your working 3 rep max on Sunday or Monday it will have no effect on your performance on Saturday. They believe that you can keep your strength and even add stretch during the season. If you have a problem go write them a letter.

Name one. And it wouldn't matter 'cause I say they'd still be FOS.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Name one. And it wouldn't matter 'cause I say they'd still be FOS.

Sure here is a recent podcast from 3 weeks ago by Joe DeFranco. He talks specifically on the subject. He recommends doing on Wednesday for college kids 3 sets of 2/3-2/3-2/4 of presses at 80% your max every week (which is conservatively your 3 rep working max, aggressively your 4 rep working max). For squat he recommends lower (60-75%)

I think you are having a reading comprehension issue. I am not saying one should do a full strength workout. Or that they should do the same program offseason as on season. What I was saying is one should be doing something like:

Week1: 2 sets of 5 at 70-75%
Week2: 2 sets of 4 75-80%
Week 3: 2 sets of 3 at 80-85%
Week 4: 2 sets of 12 at 50-60%
And repeat

That is not a lot of volume. Offseason you will have more volume and intensity.