O Line

[tep624]

Stephen Bailey article on the O Line.

Joe Adam seen wearing this around campus.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Sure here is a recent podcast from 3 weeks ago by Joe DeFranco. He talks specifically on the subject. He recommends doing on Wednesday for college kids 3 sets of 2/3-2/3-2/4 of presses at 80% your max every week (which is conservatively your 3 rep working max, aggressively your 4 rep working max). For squat he recommends lower (60-75%)

I think you are having a reading comprehension issue. I am not saying one should do a full strength workout. Or that they should do the same program offseason as on season. What I was saying is one should be doing something like:

Week1: 2 sets of 5 at 70-75%
Week2: 2 sets of 4 75-80%
Week 3: 2 sets of 3 at 80-85%
Week 4: 2 sets of 12 at 50-60%
And repeat

That is not a lot of volume. Offseason you will have more volume and intensity.

Just to give an example weight wise if a kid can max at 405 then:

Week1: 2 sets of 5 reps at 285
Week2: 2 sets of 4 reps at 305
Week3: 2 sets of 3 reps at 325
Week4: 2 sets of 12 reps at 205

What you are saying is that doing 3 sets of 12 at 185 is better for maintaining strength.

 

[timkay99]

Just to give an example weight wise if a kid can max at 405 then:

Week1: 2 sets of 5 reps at 285
Week2: 2 sets of 4 reps at 305
Week3: 2 sets of 3 reps at 325
Week4: 2 sets of 12 reps at 205

What you are saying is that doing 3 sets of 12 at 185 is better for maintaining strength.

Is that solely a Wednesday lift - what do the other lifts look like over the course of a week? I strongly disagree with your (or whomever's) ideas of week 1, 2 and 3. I have never heard of 2 sets of low reps, we typically do (which is what our power phase will be) 5 sets of 5 reps.

If you are maxing 405, your reps at 205 for only 2 sets is nothing and you don't even need a spotter. And I would argue that is the same case for every lift up there. 2 sets of 4 reps at 305 for a guy that maxed 405 will give a small challenge on the 4th rep of probably the 2nd set. Otherwise, it isn't that difficult to rep out.

If it was me and a guy was maxing 405, he better be doing 12 reps of at least 250. He made need assistance, but that is the point of spotting and assisted lifting.

You talk a lot about college athletes' ego in the weight room. Honest question, did you play on a team? A lot of college athletes straight do not like working out. Most of our team was more then happy to go through the motions and get out of the weight room so they could stuff their face with pizza or hit on girls or do a variety of other things that are more fun then lifting. And many college athletes don't really know what lifting means, what a set should feel like, etc. You really need to teach some freshman how to lift and what your arms should feel like during a set, etc.

This is just me, but I have never seen value in doing athletic lifting of anything less then 5 reps. I am willing to listen on why to do less reps, but the weight (in my experience) doesn't change from 5 reps to 3 reps in the athlete's mind. When we are doing 5 reps, we are doing 3 reps that the athlete can do by themselves and 2 reps where a spotter will need to assist w/ a finger on both hands (for bench) or be there to keep the back straight (on squat).

You can do high reps to exhaustion just like you can do low reps to exhaustion.

 

[bcubs9497]

Stephen Bailey article on the O Line.

Good read.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Is that solely a Wednesday lift - what do the other lifts look like over the course of a week? I strongly disagree with your (or whomever's) ideas of week 1, 2 and 3. I have never heard of 2 sets of low reps, we typically do (which is what our power phase will be) 5 sets of 5 reps.

If you are maxing 405, your reps at 205 for only 2 sets is nothing and you don't even need a spotter. And I would argue that is the same case for every lift up there. 2 sets of 4 reps at 305 for a guy that maxed 405 will give a small challenge on the 4th rep of probably the 2nd set. Otherwise, it isn't that difficult to rep out.

If it was me and a guy was maxing 405, he better be doing 12 reps of at least 250. He made need assistance, but that is the point of spotting and assisted lifting.

You talk a lot about college athletes' ego in the weight room. Honest question, did you play on a team? A lot of college athletes straight do not like working out. Most of our team was more then happy to go through the motions and get out of the weight room so they could stuff their face with pizza or hit on girls or do a variety of other things that are more fun then lifting. And many college athletes don't really know what lifting means, what a set should feel like, etc. You really need to teach some freshman how to lift and what your arms should feel like during a set, etc.

This is just me, but I have never seen value in doing athletic lifting of anything less then 5 reps. I am willing to listen on why to do less reps, but the weight (in my experience) doesn't change from 5 reps to 3 reps in the athlete's mind. When we are doing 5 reps, we are doing 3 reps that the athlete can do by themselves and 2 reps where a spotter will need to assist w/ a finger on both hands (for bench) or be there to keep the back straight (on squat).

You can do high reps to exhaustion just like you can do low reps to exhaustion.

The people I have read are anti max efforts mid season. It makes it harder to recover for the sport. The weight doesn't matter. You can max effort at 15 reps and it will have a bigger impact on recovery than doing a working set of 3 reps at a much higher weight. 5 sets of 5 reps seems a lot in season.

Most people I have read recommend only 2 lifts per week in season.

The 205 is a working off week. It is a recovery week where you do 50-60%. You should only need a spotter doing max efforts. Some trainers and bodybuilders are against assisted lifting at all. Even more so in season for sports. Assisted reps are more for bodybuilding anyway which an athlete shouldn't be concerned with.

My observation from when I played in HS and when I see people at the gym. I see people trying to do too much weight all the time. Or I see them start off with 10 rep max without even doing warm up sets. Most people hate warming up.

 

[timkay99]

The people I have read are anti max efforts mid season. It makes it harder to recover for the sport. The weight doesn't matter. You can max effort at 15 reps and it will have a bigger impact on recovery than doing a working set of 3 reps at a much higher weight. 5 sets of 5 reps seems a lot in season.

Most people I have read recommend only 2 lifts per week in season.

The 205 is a working off week. It is a recovery week where you do 50-60%. You should only need a spotter doing max efforts. Some trainers and bodybuilders are against assisted lifting at all. Even more so in season for sports. Assisted reps are more for bodybuilding anyway which an athlete shouldn't be concerned with.

My observation from when I played in HS and when I see people at the gym. I see people trying to do too much weight all the time. Or I see them start off with 10 rep max without even doing warm up sets. Most people hate warming up.

I am anti-max effort during the season too.

2 lifts per week in season? That is a complete non-starter and no way you maintain strength in 2 lifts per week.

I am referring to (with the 5 x 5) as our out of season lifting (power phase). The in season phase (which we are in now, is 3 or 4 days a week - we have 2 separate in season phasees - and involves reps of 8-10 w/ no squatting or barbell benching).

Athletes should definitely have some assisted lifting. To get stronger, you need assistance (referring to the squats and bench). This isn't lifting for them, but using the finger method where you give them as minimal assistance as they need to lock out reps. You are the first person I have heard to suggest the spotter should just be there to help re-rack the weight.

If our guys did those lifts 2 days a week during the season and we enforced it, we would have a revolt on our hands from half the team and a team full of fatties on the other end.

I have worked around millions of athletes from professional and collegiate level. Your small sample is incorrect, many do not like lifting or doing too much weight. Most want to do low weight and just knock it out and be done.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I am anti-max effort during the season too.

2 lifts per week in season? That is a complete non-starter and no way you maintain strength in 2 lifts per week.

I am referring to (with the 5 x 5) as our out of season lifting (power phase). The in season phase (which we are in now, is 3 or 4 days a week - we have 2 separate in season phasees - and involves reps of 8-10 w/ no squatting or barbell benching).

Athletes should definitely have some assisted lifting. To get stronger, you need assistance (referring to the squats and bench). This isn't lifting for them, but using the finger method where you give them as minimal assistance as they need to lock out reps. You are the first person I have heard to suggest the spotter should just be there to help re-rack the weight.

If our guys did those lifts 2 days a week during the season and we enforced it, we would have a revolt on our hands from half the team and a team full of fatties on the other end.

I have worked around millions of athletes from professional and collegiate level. Your small sample is incorrect, many do not like lifting or doing too much weight. Most want to do low weight and just knock it out and be done.

I don't mean two exercises. I meant 2 days of lifting. Either 1 day heavy 1 day light or 1 day upper and 1 day lower. There would be accessory exercises as well that would be lighter weight higher rep to go along with the strength exercises. And for the heavy it would be just 2-3 working sets. You would do 2-3 lighter sets at the same rep ranges as well. So that guy doing 405 absolute max might do:

135 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5
285 x 5
285 x 5

Then 3 sets of back, 3 supersets hitting all the delts, and 3 supersets of bis & tris.

Some people are against assisted lifting. They believe that doing 5 reps on your own at a lighter weight is the same a doing 5 reps with help. The assistance is taking that extra weight out of the equation. Personally I like to use assisted lifts from time to time to do negative reps. Once you are exhausted on the positive you can still do 2-3 on the negative and gain muscle from it. That is more for bodybuilding though than strength.

 

[timkay99]

I don't mean two exercises. I meant 2 days of lifting. Either 1 day heavy 1 day light or 1 day upper and 1 day lower. There would be accessory exercises as well that would be lighter weight higher rep to go along with the strength exercises. And for the heavy it would be just 2-3 working sets. You would do 2-3 lighter sets at the same rep ranges as well. So that guy doing 405 absolute max might do:

135 x 5
225 x 5
255 x 5
285 x 5
285 x 5

Then 3 sets of back, 3 supersets hitting all the delts, and 3 supersets of bis & tris.

Some people are against assisted lifting. They believe that doing 5 reps on your own at a lighter weight is the same a doing 5 reps with help. The assistance is taking that extra weight out of the equation. Personally I like to use assisted lifts from time to time to do negative reps. Once you are exhausted on the positive you can still do 2-3 on the negative and gain muscle from it. That is more for bodybuilding though than strength.

Yea, I was referring to days. I think our guys would revolt and lose strength.

I don't mind negatives, but you can only do 2-3 before they are all assistance, so I think your rep count there is fine.

I do think our definition of assistance is different as it relates to the power lift.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Yea, I was referring to days. I think our guys would revolt and lose strength.

I don't mind negatives, but you can only do 2-3 before they are all assistance, so I think your rep count there is fine.

I do think our definition of assistance is different as it relates to the power lift.

You have baseball players who have 6 games a week lifting more than twice a week? Or just pitchers who only play once a week?

Back to the original point, as long as you are not using max efforts what is the issue with using 80-85% in season?

 

[anomander]

Agreed, guy has the talent but doesn't seem to making the transition of what it takes to succeed at this level from a work ethic stand point. He was our best O Line recruit the year he came in from what I remember, people were discussing him coming and playing immediately. Certainly not ruling him out but the time is NOW

Ward himself was actually trying to get a guarantee that he could come in and start. I wish he took what he said seriously, and showed up ready to play.

 

[tep624]

Ward himself was actually trying to get a guarantee that he could come in and start. I wish he took what he said seriously, and showed up ready to play.

Looking back on it, I think the warning signs were there with him. He was an early Michigan commit, then Purdue commit, and Florida offer, who ended up decommitting from both schools and putting himself back on the market. He my very well have been recruited over by the schools because his performance started to regress because of his lack of work ethic, conditioning and commitment. We all bought hook, line and sinker into the elite recruit because of where he was coming from, not necessarily where he was going.

Unless he gets back on the train so to say, he may never see the field here.

 

[anomander]

Stephen Bailey article on the O Line.

Looks like a lot of finger point, and strangely it's being pointed right at you're true Freshman, who just happens to be the best player on the team, and the future of the program. If i'm Dungey i'm just reading this and laughing. If it wasn't for him Lester would be looking for a new job next year, now he's just the scapegoat because he's a Freshman.

Plus i'm not sure what Lester's looking at but I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when UVA rushed right up the middle, and Robinson blocked air, then turned around and chased the guy that rushed right by him. Mind you this is coming from right up the gut. Dungey may have had a split second to find that "hot" route.

Shafer would be crazy not to shake things up when it comes to the OL. You can't have such a sharp decline from a veteran group. I've said it plenty of times, but move Adam to DB coach. and bring in a real OL coach.

 

[anomander]

Looking back on it, I think the warning signs were there with him. He was an early Michigan commit, then Purdue commit, and Florida offer, who ended up decommitting from both schools and putting himself back on the market. He my very well have been recruited over by the schools because his performance started to regress because of his lack of work ethic, conditioning and commitment. We all bought hook, line and sinker into the elite recruit because of where he was coming from, not necessarily where he was going.

Totally agree. Plus remember how he was at IMG? There is a reason he transferred back to Simeon.

 

[tep624]

Totally agree. Plus remember how he was at IMG? There is a reason he transferred back to Simeon.

His recruitment definitely didn't pass the "sniff" test. Enoicy's didn't either. Both of those kids were big time recruits as Soph's, had offers from you name it, then were just hanging around looking for a place to land the last few months of the recruiting cycle. I truly believe that Ward is elite talent wise, and maybe that's why we went after him because he was our best shot for a 3-4 year dominant LT starter during that recruiting cycle. But that doesn't do us any good if he's too out of shape to take advantage of it.

And on Enoicy, I'm really surprised with his lack of use. He was specifically praised by Shafer during training camp last year before the injury and I still don't think he's even step foot on the field yet.

 

[anomander]

His recruitment definitely didn't pass the "sniff" test. Enoicy's didn't either. Both of those kids were big time recruits as Soph's, had offers from you name it, then were just hanging around looking for a place to land the last few months of the recruiting cycle. I truly believe that Ward is elite talent wise, and maybe that's why we went after him because he was our best shot for a 3-4 year dominant LT starter during that recruiting cycle. But that doesn't do us any good if he's too out of shape to take advantage of it.

And on Enoicy, I'm really surprised with his lack of use. He was specifically praised by Shafer during training camp last year before the injury and I still don't think he's even step foot on the field yet.

Ya I can't figure that one out? He seemed to be getting a lot of praise in Fall camp before his Freshman year, but now nothing. Wonder if he met all the conditioning standards? Or who knows maybe he's injured?

 

[Crusty]

Looks like a lot of finger point, and strangely it's being pointed right at you're true Freshman, who just happens to be the best player on the team, and the future of the program. If i'm Dungey i'm just reading this and laughing. If it wasn't for him Lester would be looking for a new job next year, now he's just the scapegoat because he's a Freshman.

Plus i'm not sure what Lester's looking at but I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when UVA rushed right up the middle, and Robinson blocked air, then turned around and chased the guy that rushed right by him. Mind you this is coming from right up the gut. Dungey may have had a split second to find that "hot" route.

Shafer would be crazy not to shake things up when it comes to the OL. You can't have such a sharp decline from a veteran group. I've said it plenty of times, but move Adam to DB coach. and bring in a real OL coach.

Yes, Robinson looked lost. He doubled the DE and then realized the DT was unblocked. Not the sixth man.

He should can that empty formation for awhile anyway.

 

[TheCusian]

Looks like a lot of finger point, and strangely it's being pointed right at you're true Freshman, who just happens to be the best player on the team, and the future of the program. If i'm Dungey i'm just reading this and laughing. If it wasn't for him Lester would be looking for a new job next year, now he's just the scapegoat because he's a Freshman. Plus i'm not sure what Lester's looking at but I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when UVA rushed right up the middle, and Robinson blocked air, then turned around and chased the guy that rushed right by him. Mind you this is coming from right up the gut. Dungey may have had a split second to find that "hot" route. Shafer would be crazy not to shake things up when it comes to the OL. You can't have such a sharp decline from a veteran group. I've said it plenty of times, but move Adam to DB coach. and bring in a real OL coach.

He said "we missed some assignments"... I don't buy the finger pointing at Dungey being anything more than repeating what he's said in private. If you have 6 guys coming and the line picks up 5 and it's the QB's responsibility to read it and make the play and he can do it - then I don't see how that's the line or Lester's fault. That's squarely on Dungey.

If you want to make the argument he should be covering for his QB publicly, I'd get that. But if it's on him and he doesn't do it? Not sure that's on the line.

 

[Crusty]

What we are saying is that it was more than a couple of missed assignments on pass plays. They also didn't hold blocks, didn't seal the edge and just plain whiffed in the last OT. Lester didn't want to throw his coaches under the bus.

While it is true Dungey makes mistakes on literally 15% to 20% of the plays, the other 80% to 85% are pretty darn good.

IMO Lester needs to rethink some of his plays and focus on what Eric does best.

 

[tep624]

What we are saying is that it was more than a couple of missed assignments on pass plays. They also didn't hold blocks, didn't seal the edge and just plain whiffed in the last OT. Lester didn't want to throw his coaches under the bus.

While it is true Dungey makes mistakes on literally 15% to 20% of the plays, the other 80% to 85% are pretty darn good.

IMO Lester needs to rethink some of his plays and focus on what Eric does best.

I wouldn't be surprised if Robinson is banged up a bit.

 

[Crusty]

I wouldn't be surprised if Robinson is banged up a bit.

Maybe more than one of them.

 

[qdawgg]

then I don't see how that's the line or Lester's fault. That's squarely on Dungey.

If you want to make the argument he should be covering for his QB publicly, I'd get that. .

I think this might actually lead to a bigger more important question/questions

- Does it make sense to blame your freshman QB publicly?
- I think Dungey has done an incredible job given the play of the OL, Hunt would have been sacked and/or thrown multiple int's if he had not gotten hurt. So If Dungey is playing this well, see the original point.
- I believe the OL play has not been good. It's not a fact, although I think it is but still my opinion along with many others... that implies to some degree that Shafer has chosen to place some blame on Dungey but not his own coaches.
- I think that leads back to the original questioning of his hires, in some way. Why hire a guy to coach the OL with no experience. Why not at least interview some OC's for the position. I think this shows that he is extremely loyal, to a fault. The boss needs to hold the people below him accountable. McF was the exception because he wasn't getting along with the rest of the staff, so that was an easy one.

 

[tep624]

Maybe more than one of them.

I just remember last year once he was banged up, it was a steep drop off in performance from when he was healthy. Trudo too.

 

[TheCusian]

I think this might actually lead to a bigger more important question/questions - Does it make sense to blame your freshman QB publicly? - I think Dungey has done an incredible job given the play of the OL, Hunt would have been sacked and/or thrown multiple int's if he had not gotten hurt. So If Dungey is playing this well, see the original point. - I believe the OL play has not been good. It's not a fact, although I think it is but still my opinion along with many others... that implies to some degree that Shafer has chosen to place some blame on Dungey but not his own coaches. - I think that leads back to the original questioning of his hires, in some way. Why hire a guy to coach the OL with no experience. Why not at least interview some OC's for the position. I think this shows that he is extremely loyal, to a fault. The boss needs to hold the people below him accountable. McF was the exception because he wasn't getting along with the rest of the staff, so that was an easy one.

I don't know. I get that we don't trust everything coaches say - but if they are grading them out every game? Don't they have more info? What's to gain by publicly calling out Dungey unless it's a legit thing they already talked to him about? Why protect the oline but criticize Dungey? (Again - Lester said the line missed some assignments publicly)