Class of 2016 OLB Solomon Manning (NJ) Verbal to Rutgers

[jekelish]

So Marrone, doesn't get any credit for his game planning in 2012? It's not like Sales, Lemon, Bailey, and Provo were these elite talents. None of them even sniffed the NFL other then Lemon being on a practice squad. Sure Nassib, and Pugh were big losses, but our OL was still a strength the following year, and Nassib was developed into the player he became.

The success of the 2012 team has just as much to do with coaching as it did talent.

I won't dispute that. But everyone involved with the offense from a coaching standpoint was gone by 2013, too. So I think it just furthers the point that the offense was basically a complete rebuild after 2012.

 

[TheCusian]

So Marrone, doesn't get any credit for his game planning in 2012? It's not like Sales, Lemon, Bailey, and Provo were these elite talents. None of them even sniffed the NFL other then Lemon being on a practice squad. Sure Nassib, and Pugh were big losses, but our OL was still a strength the following year, and Nassib was developed into the player he became. The success of the 2012 team has just as much to do with coaching as it did talent.

Absolutely correct. But they were gone by 2013. But both talent and coaching dropped off a cliff (partly due to recruiting issues, partly due to hiring a bad OC). 2013 was going to be a tough climb no matter what. It got much worse when Marrone left. 2013 with Hunts legs and our RB got better and we did beat a lot of our 50/50 games.

Last year was a mess.

 

[leftytg]

So Marrone, doesn't get any credit for his game planning in 2012? It's not like Sales, Lemon, Bailey, and Provo were these elite talents. None of them even sniffed the NFL other then Lemon being on a practice squad. Sure Nassib, and Pugh were big losses, but our OL was still a strength the following year, and Nassib was developed into the player he became.

The success of the 2012 team has just as much to do with coaching as it did talent.

This is exactly right. I'd also add that, in addition to the high level of game planning, Marrone also had a clear vision for the philosophies he wanted for the program on offense and defense, and worked to develop and execute that vision as a program. Shafer's problem isn't just that he made a disaster of a hire with McDonald as OC. It's that he doesn't have a consistent vision and identity for what offense should be at Syracuse. That's a much different, and much more serious mistake, than simply making a bad hire in McDonald.

 

[DownTheField]

This is exactly right. I'd also add that, in addition to the high level of game planning, Marrone also had a clear vision for the philosophies he wanted for the program on offense and defense, and worked to develop and execute that vision as a program. Shafer's problem isn't just that he made a disaster of a hire with McDonald as OC. It's that he doesn't have a consistent vision and identity for what offense should be at Syracuse. That's a much different, and much more serious mistake, than simply making a bad hire in McDonald.

What was Marrone's vision on offense? Prior to 2012 our offense was pretty abysmal and Marrone was supposed to be an offensive guy. We were winning games because of Shafer's defense. Shafer is deservedly taking the blame for the McDonald hire but why doesn't anyone mention Rob Spence who was even worse than McDonald?

Edit: I just looked it up and in 2010 and 2011 we averaged 22.2pts/322.8yds and 24.2/348.2. In 2013 and 2014 we were at 22.7/376.8 and 17.1/329.3. Last year was awful but we also played 4 QB's, had a ton of O-line injuries, and switched OC in the middle of the year.

 

[TheCusian]

This is exactly right. I'd also add that, in addition to the high level of game planning, Marrone also had a clear vision for the philosophies he wanted for the program on offense and defense, and worked to develop and execute that vision as a program. Shafer's problem isn't just that he made a disaster of a hire with McDonald as OC. It's that he doesn't have a consistent vision and identity for what offense should be at Syracuse. That's a much different, and much more serious mistake, than simply making a bad hire in McDonald.

I'm not confident Marrone had some grand idea of what the defense should look like. He hired a great DC to do the job. And that DC saved his arse in almost all of the seasons sans his last.

 

[leftytg]

What was Marrone's vision on offense? Prior to 2012 our offense was pretty abysmal and Marrone was supposed to be an offensive guy. We were winning games because of Shafer's defense. Shafer is deservedly taking the blame for the McDonald hire but why doesn't anyone mention Rob Spence who was even worse than McDonald?

Edit: I just looked it up and in 2010 and 2011 we averaged 22.2pts/322.8yds and 24.2/348.2. In 2013 and 2014 we were at 22.7/376.8 and 17.1/329.3. Last year was awful but we also played 4 QB's, had a ton of O-line injuries, and switched OC in the middle of the year.

I swear, it's like some people don't remember the Robinson years and what a complete and total disaster the program was in when he left. I'm certainly sympathetic to the notion that people have repressed it or break into hives thinking about it again, but those years did happen. There is a difference between a program rebuild and reloading. What Marrone inherited was a total rebuild. He had to instill a new culture, set new expectations, and purge the roster of the considerable amount of FCS talent that had accumulated, on top of the ordinary tasks that go along with being a head coach. You post the 2010 and 2011 numbers. I can't help but notice you did not post the 2008, 2009, and 2012 numbers. If you had, a clearer picture would emerge of just how far the program had sunk, and the very clear line of progress culminating in the 2012 season.

The whole point of hiring Shafer was for continuity and maintain (and ideally advance) the foundation that Marrone had laid. Nobody is disputing that Syracuse lost a ton of offense going into Shafer's first year. This happens at every school every now and then. Only the elite schools can seamlessly transition, and even that isn't a guarantee. A step backwards as younger players assume their new starring roles is to be expected. But that isn't what happened. Shafer - rather than aiming to continue Syracuse's offensive identity of a pro-style offense with an emphasis on multiple outlets each play - decided to reinvent things. That is fine, but he followed that up with promoting a WR coach to OC, a guy who hadn't worked out and demonstrated an ability to successfully install and run an offensive system. A guy who was long on buzzwords and current trends and short on demonstrated ability.

Say what you want about Marrone, but he was an offense guy. He had a very good NFL pedigree on that front, and he was going to be the shaper and molder of the Syracuse offense. His most important hire, then, would be his DC. When he hired Shafer, he hired a known quantity. a guy who had been a DC for 8 years, with two of those years at the major conference level. Shafer knew who he was as a DC - especially after the disaster of Michigan and RichRod forcing him to run the 3-5-3 defense.

Shafer, being a defense guy, needed to bring in an experienced, proven, offensive coordinator who had a demonstrated vision and proven track record of executing that vision, that synced up with what Shafer wanted for Syracuse University. Now sometimes proven, experienced coordinators don't work out. The aforementioned Rob Spence is certainly an example. But at least the Spence hire made sense - he had been an OC for 9 years, including the most recent 4 at Clemson. McDonald wasn't just a bad hire, it was a failure of concept. To double down on Tim Lester, and to continue to hire nearly exclusively from the WMU/Bill Cubit pool, leaves me deeply skeptical of his priorities and decision making abilities as a head coach. I earnestly hope I'm wrong. Along with everyone else here I'll be watching every game come football season and their wins and losses make or break my weekends. But I see troubling trends and cracks in the foundation, and it doesn't make me, or anyone in my position, a bad fan or unduly negative to talk about them on a fan board.

 

[Toga]

Furthermore, as much as Ish did last year, he's up 20 lbs of muscle without losing any speed or quickness. He is an NFL caliber guy after his JR. year, a true #1. AC is no slouch, best footwork on the team, and he's done what's necessary from a work standpoint to put himself in a position to showcase it. I don't think that him and GM got along very well, hence why he disappeared after an encouraging FR campaign.

This staff is bringing in talent, now, it's just a matter of utilizing it.

Marrone's staff did much more, with much less honestly.

All AC has done in his limited time is make plays.

 

[TheCusian]

I swear, it's like some people don't remember the Robinson years and what a complete and total disaster the program was in when he left. I'm certainly sympathetic to the notion that people have repressed it or break into hives thinking about it again, but those years did happen. There is a difference between a program rebuild and reloading. What Marrone inherited was a total rebuild. He had to instill a new culture, set new expectations, and purge the roster of the considerable amount of FCS talent that had accumulated, on top of the ordinary tasks that go along with being a head coach. You post the 2010 and 2011 numbers. I can't help but notice you did not post the 2008, 2009, and 2012 numbers. If you had, a clearer picture would emerge of just how far the program had sunk, and the very clear line of progress culminating in the 2012 season. The whole point of hiring Shafer was for continuity and maintain (and ideally advance) the foundation that Marrone had laid. Nobody is disputing that Syracuse lost a ton of offense going into Shafer's first year. This happens at every school every now and then. Only the elite schools can seamlessly transition, and even that isn't a guarantee. A step backwards as younger players assume their new starring roles is to be expected. But that isn't what happened. Shafer - rather than aiming to continue Syracuse's offensive identity of a pro-style offense with an emphasis on multiple outlets each play - decided to reinvent things. That is fine, but he followed that up with promoting a WR coach to OC, a guy who hadn't worked out and demonstrated an ability to successfully install and run an offensive system. A guy who was long on buzzwords and current trends and short on demonstrated ability. Say what you want about Marrone, but he was an offense guy. He had a very good NFL pedigree on that front, and he was going to be the shaper and molder of the Syracuse offense. His most important hire, then, would be his DC. When he hired Shafer, he hired a known quantity. a guy who had been a DC for 8 years, with two of those years at the major conference level. Shafer knew who he was as a DC - especially after the disaster of Michigan and RichRod forcing him to run the 3-5-3 defense. Shafer, being a defense guy, needed to bring in an experienced, proven, offensive coordinator who had a demonstrated vision and proven track record of executing that vision, that synced up with what Shafer wanted for Syracuse University. Now sometimes proven, experienced coordinators don't work out. The aforementioned Rob Spence is certainly an example. But at least the Spence hire made sense - he had been an OC for 9 years, including the most recent 4 at Clemson. McDonald wasn't just a bad hire, it was a failure of concept. To double down on Tim Lester, and to continue to hire nearly exclusively from the WMU/Bill Cubit pool, leaves me deeply skeptical of his priorities and decision making abilities as a head coach. I earnestly hope I'm wrong. Along with everyone else here I'll be watching every game come football season and their wins and losses make or break my weekends. But I see troubling trends and cracks in the foundation, and it doesn't make me, or anyone in my position, a bad fan or unduly negative to talk about them on a fan board.

Just to reinforce what's been said before your post:

1. Hiring McDonald was a huge mistake, Shafer owns that.
2. The offense in 2013 was going to be a mess no matter who the QB was.
3. When Marrone left and took the entire offensive staff except Moore, things went from bad to bleak.
4. When he left he left at the worst time on the recruiting calendar. We lost a stud RB and QB.

Now onto your points:

1. Marrone did dig us out of a hole. The culture change was real. Keeping Shafer on DID ensure that it continue. You could say it got better.
2. Marrone's offense didn't culminate in 2012 in a straight line. In fact, things were pretty bad in 2011 offensively. People were killing Marrone/Hackett around here. Hackett stumbled onto something different in 2012. And even that flopped around till Jerome Smith's emergence halfway through the year.
3. Writing Lesters obit right now is foolish. You haven't seen a snap of his offense run in a game situation.
4. Talk all you want.

I've just been pushing back on the notion that the program was in tip-top shape when Shafer took over. The only constant for the last 6 years has been good-very good defense. That's it.

 

[DownTheField]

I swear, it's like some people don't remember the Robinson years and what a complete and total disaster the program was in when he left. I'm certainly sympathetic to the notion that people have repressed it or break into hives thinking about it again, but those years did happen. There is a difference between a program rebuild and reloading. What Marrone inherited was a total rebuild. He had to instill a new culture, set new expectations, and purge the roster of the considerable amount of FCS talent that had accumulated, on top of the ordinary tasks that go along with being a head coach. You post the 2010 and 2011 numbers. I can't help but notice you did not post the 2008, 2009, and 2012 numbers. If you had, a clearer picture would emerge of just how far the program had sunk, and the very clear line of progress culminating in the 2012 season.

The whole point of hiring Shafer was for continuity and maintain (and ideally advance) the foundation that Marrone had laid. Nobody is disputing that Syracuse lost a ton of offense going into Shafer's first year. This happens at every school every now and then. Only the elite schools can seamlessly transition, and even that isn't a guarantee. A step backwards as younger players assume their new starring roles is to be expected. But that isn't what happened. Shafer - rather than aiming to continue Syracuse's offensive identity of a pro-style offense with an emphasis on multiple outlets each play - decided to reinvent things. That is fine, but he followed that up with promoting a WR coach to OC, a guy who hadn't worked out and demonstrated an ability to successfully install and run an offensive system. A guy who was long on buzzwords and current trends and short on demonstrated ability.

Say what you want about Marrone, but he was an offense guy. He had a very good NFL pedigree on that front, and he was going to be the shaper and molder of the Syracuse offense. His most important hire, then, would be his DC. When he hired Shafer, he hired a known quantity. a guy who had been a DC for 8 years, with two of those years at the major conference level. Shafer knew who he was as a DC - especially after the disaster of Michigan and RichRod forcing him to run the 3-5-3 defense.

Shafer, being a defense guy, needed to bring in an experienced, proven, offensive coordinator who had a demonstrated vision and proven track record of executing that vision, that synced up with what Shafer wanted for Syracuse University. Now sometimes proven, experienced coordinators don't work out. The aforementioned Rob Spence is certainly an example. But at least the Spence hire made sense - he had been an OC for 9 years, including the most recent 4 at Clemson. McDonald wasn't just a bad hire, it was a failure of concept. To double down on Tim Lester, and to continue to hire nearly exclusively from the WMU/Bill Cubit pool, leaves me deeply skeptical of his priorities and decision making abilities as a head coach. I earnestly hope I'm wrong. Along with everyone else here I'll be watching every game come football season and their wins and losses make or break my weekends. But I see troubling trends and cracks in the foundation, and it doesn't make me, or anyone in my position, a bad fan or unduly negative to talk about them on a fan board.

My main point was that Marrone didn't have some grand offensive plan for the future. He hired a terrible, bubble happy OC his first year and had terrible offenses until 2012. I don't think he spent his first three years working up to a no huddle offense with a simplified playbook. Even that offense had a hell of a time putting points on the board the first half of the year.

Shafer may live or die based on the Lester hire but if you want to talk about promoting a guy who had never demonstrated an ability to install and run an offensive system just take a look at Nate Hackett's resume prior to being named OC. The only reason he was a better hire than McDonald is because he and Marrone finally came up with a competent offense in their third year together. On paper there's not a huge difference.

 

[Finwad32]

The implementation of the 2012 offense occurred within days of opening kickoff. That's no bull . Hackett feared for his job, and, Marrone unhappy with the offensive results up to that point in camp demanded a change.

Literally stumbled upon it. Not to say it wasn't coached and called beautifully after, but, it was not in the original plan.

 

[TheCusian]

The implementation of the 2012 offense occurred within days of opening kickoff. That's no bull . . . . . Hackett feared for his job, and, Marrone unhappy with the offensive results up to that point in camp demanded a change. Literally stumbled upon it. Not to say it wasn't coached and called beautifully after, but, it was t in the original plan.

And the hand-ringing doom sayers were predicting awful things. Sounds familiar.

 

[wfschrec]

I don't think he inherited a total disaster. But he didn't inherit the 2012 roster. The most important pieces of that offense were gone by the time Shafer took over.

Lets not discount the fact that Marrone had the Big East to play with not FSU and Clemson twice a year ... talk about a strawman.

 

[Ottoble]

Lets not discount the fact that Marrone had the Big East to play with not FSU and Clemson twice a year ... talk about a strawman.

Yup I thought this was always the weakest part of marrone leaving that with the ACC on the horizon he just ran. Share made that team a bowl team... it wasn't a totally pretty season but still a bowl team.