OT - Bernie

[Guinness]

I have never seen the man in person (only on TV or in print) but I swear I saw him at the Wake game last night. I was standing in line with my son for some ice cream and looked up to see someone talking to the usher at the stairs 5 feet away. I could be wrong but sure looked like him.

 

[jekelish]

Were these two with him?

 

[cto]

If it were he, you should have said "Hello, Bernie." He would have appreciated it. He is a very sad and lonely human being right now -- cut off from a lot of friends and the school he loved for 50 years.

 

[bballbeadle]

If it were he, you should have said "Hello, Bernie." He would have appreciated it. He is a very sad and lonely human being right now -- cut off from a lot of friends and the school he loved for 50 years.

That makes me feel sad. Will we ever know what really happened? No. We certainly know many things that did not happen.

I assume he crossed a boundary with a young man with whom he was in a position of trust. That was not a good thing, but it does not seem to be the kind of thing to be banished forever from the face of the earth. He has paid a high price for his actions. I wish him peace.

 

[cto]

Peggy. I sincerely believe that he did not "cross a boundary" with that person who made those allegations. I sincerely believe that person was angry at Bernie for refusing to "lend" him more money... and thought he would get back at him. Aside from the accuser, no one who knows Bernie believes any of the accusations... many of which were disproven by actual records. They searched all Bernie's computer records... every piece of paper in his home and office... and talked to dozens of people who knew him well during his career at Syracuse. Nothing was proven. Nothing! I consider this a very sad chapter in American history. It all started because ESPN wanted to have their own "scandal" (after playing catch up at Penn State), and they had a troubled person who was willing to say anything.

 

[supp]

Peggy. I sincerely believe that he did not "cross a boundary" with that person who made those allegations. I sincerely believe that person was angry at Bernie for refusing to "lend" him more money... and thought he would get back at him. Aside from the accuser, no one who knows Bernie believes any of the accusations... many of which were disproven by actual records. They searched all Bernie's computer records... every piece of paper in his home and office... and talked to dozens of people who knew him well during his career at Syracuse. Nothing was proven. Nothing! I consider this a very sad chapter in American history. It all started because ESPN wanted to have their own "scandal" (after playing catch up at Penn State), and they had a troubled person who was willing to say anything.

Any insight as to why he dropped his lawsuit against ESPN?

 

[cto]

Any insight as to why he dropped his lawsuit against ESPN?

He was weary and disheartened and did not want to pursue a case that would allow espn to keep rehashing the allegations. He just wanted to move on with his life. When I was in corporate PR, we used to say "Don't pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel." In today's world, that has been extended to ... "Don't keep fighting with someone who is the WWL."

 

[BludOrange]

It's to bad that in the court of public opinion, most times you are guilty until proven innocent. And even if never charged or convicted, there will always be a stigma attached to the person.

 

[AccuRater]

Peggy. I sincerely believe that he did not "cross a boundary" with that person who made those allegations. I sincerely believe that person was angry at Bernie for refusing to "lend" him more money... and thought he would get back at him. Aside from the accuser, no one who knows Bernie believes any of the accusations... many of which were disproven by actual records. They searched all Bernie's computer records... every piece of paper in his home and office... and talked to dozens of people who knew him well during his career at Syracuse. Nothing was proven. Nothing! I consider this a very sad chapter in American history. It all started because ESPN wanted to have their own "scandal" (after playing catch up at Penn State), and they had a troubled person who was willing to say anything.

Season ticket holder. We always get to The Hill 2-3 hours early. During the 2012-2013 season, we had occasion to talk to several people who attended the camp run by Bernie. My kids all went to camps (Not Bernie's). Camps are rumor mills. Anything untoward happens, and I mean anything, word gets out. The response to my questioning was universal: There were no rumors. Bernie was a complete gentleman. No indication of any "crossing boundaries", physically, verbally, gestures, nothing. Of course, this was not a systematic investigation. But I am familiar with behavior disorders (PhD Psychologist, several decades experience). A general rule is that pedophiles seek out several victims. I can just about guarantee you that if Bernie was a pedophile, campers would have known. This whole thing was a tragedy on so many levels.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

How does the Laurie Fine tape work into this? It sounded pretty damning, and to many people that's all that matters. It seems on that tape that she agrees that Bernie did awful things to him.

 

[OburgOrange]

If it were he, you should have said "Hello, Bernie." He would have appreciated it. He is a very sad and lonely human being right now -- cut off from a lot of friends and the school he loved for 50 years.

Really feel bad for him. No due process, just allegations that ruins someones life, and they couldnt have come at a worse time. Does JB stay in contact with him?

 

[texascpa]

If it were he, you should have said "Hello, Bernie." He would have appreciated it. He is a very sad and lonely human being right now -- cut off from a lot of friends and the school he loved for 50 years.

The school has cut off an innocent man?

 

[Orange Barrel]

Aside from the accuser, no one who knows Bernie believes any of the accusations... many of which were disproven by actual records. They searched all Bernie's computer records... every piece of paper in his home and office... and talked to dozens of people who knew him well during his career at Syracuse. Nothing was proven. Nothing! I consider this a very sad chapter in American history. It all started because ESPN wanted to have their own "scandal" (after playing catch up at Penn State), and they had a troubled person who was willing to say anything.

Agree completely with this and posted something similar on Nunes the other day. There is no way all of that law enforcement and investigation comes up empty. Unless of course Bernie is innocent.

 

[Orange Barrel]

How does the Laurie Fine tape work into this? It sounded pretty damning, and to many people that's all that matters. It seems on that tape that she agrees that Bernie did awful things to him.

I'm a 25 year Newhouse educated audio tech. It's pretty simple to edit audio recordings these days. A third grader could do it. I also never considered those tapes particularly damning. Neither did an army of law enforcement investigators. When presented by OTL they sound pretty bad because that's what OTL was going for. It's all in the editing.

 

[two3zone]

I'm soooooooooo in the middle on this I don't even know what to say.


On one side it seems to me that he is guilty. The tapes, the huge federal investigation.


On the other hand, not one credible accuser. Not one charge after the investigation, not one other person coming out.


If he's innocent, I feel awful for the man. Lost everything somebody that had as much love and passion for the program only matched by our HOF coach.

If he's guilty, he's gotten off light, real light.

I still have no idea what to think. I feel really bad sometimes, the stop only because I really don't know. (Probably the first time in my life I was so in the middle on something and couldn't find a side to back.)

 

[tee1222]

I'm soooooooooo in the middle on this I don't even know what to say.


On one side it seems to me that he is guilty. The tapes, the huge federal investigation.


On the other hand, not one credible accuser. Not one charge after the investigation, not one other person coming out.


If he's innocent, I feel awful for the man. Lost everything somebody that had as much love and passion for the program only matched by our HOF coach.

If he's guilty, he's gotten off light, real light.

I still have no idea what to think. I feel really bad sometimes, the stop only because I really don't know. (Probably the first time in my life I was so in the middle on something and couldn't find a side to back.)

I feel exactly the same way about this.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I'm a 25 year Newhouse educated audio tech. It's pretty simple to edit audio recordings these days. A third grader could do it. I also never considered those tapes particularly damning. Neither did an army of law enforcement investigators. When presented by OTL they sound pretty bad because that's what OTL was going for. It's all in the editing.

I'm not sure it would prove anything either way, but Did Laurie Fine ever deny that the conversation took place and that the tape was manufactured? Or did she simply say it was taken out of context?

 

[Sgt Cuse]

[quote="two3zone, post: 915107, member: 3651
On the other hand, not one credible accuser. Not one charge after the investigation, not one other person coming out.

If he's innocent, I feel awful for the man. Lost everything somebody that had as much love and passion for the program only matched by our HOF coach.

If he's guilty, he's gotten off light, real light.
[/quote]
But things aren't so black and white. Guilty of what exactly?

Doesn't it depend on what he is guilty of? What if he's guilty of:
being homosexual - did he get off light, real light? no one is really charging him with this, but then again no one is really charging him with anything, and this alone pretty much is a career ender.
waiting until the guy turned 17 and then had an affair? - the crossing of a boundary (highlighted by gender)
having his way with the guy when he was just a kid - disgusting, but how can he ever disprove it?
mass pedophile, ie Penn State - no longer really in the running for those following the case here, but certainly a possible
meaning of "if he's guilty" to those not following the whole ordeal - sad.

And all the while, none of it has been proven, or admitted. All based on a pre-conceived script with a third party that lacked specifics, and was later followed up with an apology by the accuser.

I hope this never happens to me. I even hope it doesn't happen to you.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

I'm a 25 year Newhouse educated audio tech. It's pretty simple to edit audio recordings these days. A third grader could do it. I also never considered those tapes particularly damning. Neither did an army of law enforcement investigators. When presented by OTL they sound pretty bad because that's what OTL was going for. It's all in the editing.

I understand this -- I've been doing video and audio editing for years. Specifically on Pro Tools. I know how easy it is to edit this stuff, I warn my students about the ease with which we can take things out of context if we want to -- do you think it was ESPN that did this editing? Because to me -- He says straight out "Bernie is a pedophile." And Laurie doesn't disagree. She also asks "did you blow him" at one point. If you're suggesting Davis did the editing, I'd be surprised that his knowledge on audio editing would be that advanced (to clip together certain segments, etc...). I hated the OTL stuff as much as anyone, but if they doctored the tape knowingly, wow. That's damning, and I don't think it would happen.

I would counter that the sound was bad because Davis did the recording over the phone on his own, and used low end equipment -- not because ESPN doctored it to sound that way.

 

[Orange Barrel]

I believe Davis did some editing. His end of the conversation was also transparently leading. Pretty obvious he was baiting her to say what he wanted to hear.

As far as OTL is concerned, I put nothing past them. They condoned their reporter facilitating a phone call between witnesses. Ethics were apparently not a big concern for them.

As an aside, I live in the same town as an OTL reporter and occasionally work with him and see him around town. On these occasions, I make it a point to ask him when OTL is going to retract it's story and apologize to Bernie. I follow that up by demanding that ESPN fire Schwartz and his producer.

 

[DownTheField]

Wouldn't the huge federal investigation that led to no charges make it seem that he's not guilty? It's not like he was being investigated by some rinky dink Keystone Cops. If there was anything, they would find it.

I'm soooooooooo in the middle on this I don't even know what to say.


On one side it seems to me that he is guilty. The tapes, the huge federal investigation.


On the other hand, not one credible accuser. Not one charge after the investigation, not one other person coming out.


If he's innocent, I feel awful for the man. Lost everything somebody that had as much love and passion for the program only matched by our HOF coach.

If he's guilty, he's gotten off light, real light.

I still have no idea what to think. I feel really bad sometimes, the stop only because I really don't know. (Probably the first time in my life I was so in the middle on something and couldn't find a side to back.)

 

[two3zone]

Wouldn't the huge federal investigation that led to no charges make it seem that he's not guilty? It's not like he was being investigated by some rinky dink Keystone Cops. If there was anything, they would find it.

Yes and no. This is where it get tricky. Even if they found something on bobby Davis and his brother it's past the statute of limitations, or really anything before that time frame. Realistically they could have found a ton of stuff on past crimes but couldn't do anything. Or they could have found nothing recent or anything at all. So really we have no idea what the investigation led to legally.

I'd really like too see what they found in the investigation personally just so they guy can either be vindicated or keep getting the treatment he's getting now. Right now it has to suck being Bernie Fine.

 

[orangecuse]

Peggy. I sincerely believe that he did not "cross a boundary" with that person who made those allegations. I sincerely believe that person was angry at Bernie for refusing to "lend" him more money... and thought he would get back at him. Aside from the accuser, no one who knows Bernie believes any of the accusations... many of which were disproven by actual records. They searched all Bernie's computer records... every piece of paper in his home and office... and talked to dozens of people who knew him well during his career at Syracuse. Nothing was proven. Nothing! I consider this a very sad chapter in American history. It all started because ESPN wanted to have their own "scandal" (after playing catch up at Penn State), and they had a troubled person who was willing to say anything.

I agree with your sentiment. And, indeed, a sad chapter in American history in yet, unfortunately, another example of man's inhumanity...

 

[DoctorBombay]

Agree completely with this and posted something similar on Nunes the other day. There is no way all of that law enforcement and investigation comes up empty. Unless of course Bernie is innocent.

This is why I lean towards something other than what he was accused of. Pedophiles rarely if ever have just ONE victim. To have no one but a relative of the accuser belatedly come forward is waaay too convenient, IMO.
Also, the tape sounded far worse than it really was, IMO- its the timing and ESPN's editing more than the content, that made him look guilty. And so what if Laurie stayed silent when he said "Bernie's a pedophile"? I've called people worse in a conversation, and if it was taped I'd look pretty bad. The "did you blow him" question could also be taken out of context since she doesn't add "when u were underage".
Finally the clincher for me was, why didn't Davis just say it straight out: "When I was 11 years old Bernie molested me and he's kept it up to this day". Why is he so vague if what he was looking for was corroboration? He NEVER makes that direct statement, NOT ONCE, on any of the tapes. Why not?
When Tomaselli came forward and ESPN embraced his accusations for sensationalist reasons, and Schwarz forgot the use of "allegedly" in his vocabulary, suddenly Bernie was guilty before proven innocent. Couple that with the publicity-seeking DA announcing that he "would have indicted him if he could", and the rest is history.
Once the layers were pulled back and some of the nonsense exposed, it was too late to change that first impression.
What that man went through, & continues to go through, is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. JMHO