Our last 8 games defensively

[LAorange44]

It’s a real head scratcher. We are the opposite team of what we were in the first half of the season. In the last 10 games, our offense efficiency ranks 36th and defense ranks 204. Earlier in the season, our defensive efficiency was top 25 but we couldn’t score the ball for the life of us. If only we could pair our early season defense effort with our new found ability to score the ball. We might be a dangerous team then.

 

[djcon57]

I am not so sure I see a lot of anti-Red agenda around here. Seems like everyone wants him to be successful, and most are willing to give him a fair shot.

There is important context behind those numbers you are not acknowledging. Last year we were a horrible defensive team, but we were consistently bad from beginning to end, mostly because we played a lot of bad defenders and freshmen.

This year we started off quite well (only averaging 69 ppg allowed in the first 13 games against a tough schedule) but we've been getting worse and worse as the year goes on. Injuries (especially McLeod's) has affected this some, but doesn't account for it all. The fact that we continue to get worse defensively is a clue that the way we play has major flaws that teams are able to figure out and capitalize on.

Our best defense this year was better than our best defense last year but that all came early when nobody had video of how to play against Red's style, and I would argue were accidentally playing right into our strengths.

Our worst defense this year is just as bad as our worst defense last year, but it's coming late in the season, which to me is concerning.

I'm not ready to push the panick button, we had a lot of bad luck personnel-wise, but I think it's fair to say Red needs to rework his defense in the offseason and his ability to do so is the most important part of our future success (or lack there of) and something fans should be paying close attention to next year.

Wasn't an anti Red agenda I was speaking about.

The context of the numbers is simply a response to the question the OP, anything else that was implied that I said is coming from other posters.

Is this the worst our defense has been? Nope. That was the context of the numbers posted. Simple as that.

Do I share your concern about the defense? Absolutely. I posted nonstop about Red's refusal to adjust to the NBA like 2 man game to setup a mismatch on Bell. It almost cost us the game. The injuries and lack of depth are for sure hurting us though. I'm willing to see what he can do to adjust in year 2 with a different group. If we see the same issues, we have a problem

 

[PoppyHart]

75% of the coaching staff has virtually no experiencing coaching M2M. How will that improve? Trial and error?

 

[Bulldog04]

Westry was going to be the defensive leader of this team. Not having him is crushing on the defensive end

 

[Red2003]

the guy who shoots 8.5 ft's a game (more than 2 + per game than #2 in the ACC 5.7 ) is called for touch fouls ? oh the injustice. either you believe he's a foul magnet or else perhaps he is creating contact and getting friendly whistles. we shoot 0ver 3 more ft's per game on avg. seems rather disproportionate wouldn't you say ?

Did you watch the defensive fouls Judah was called for last Saturday? None of them were him fouling shooters.

 

[Bayside44]

Did you watch the defensive fouls Judah was called for last Saturday? None of them were him fouling shooters.

Pretty sure there was one in the lane, but he didn't touch the guy.

 

[br801]

Too reliant on generating steals

Need to add more size to help with rebounding in the offseason

But imagine how bad it might look if they couldn't do that effectively.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Starling, Bell and Mintz aren’t playing any defense. They are the main 3 culprits in that order.

I'll be watching Starling closely tonight. I feel like he gets a hard rap about his defense on this board.

 

[two3zone]

Starling, Bell and Mintz aren’t playing any defense. They are the main 3 culprits in that order.

Copeland isn’t great out there either. Not at their levels but he takes way way way too many plays off on the defensive end.

 

[two3zone]

I'll be watching Starling closely tonight. I feel like he gets a hard rap about his defense on this board.

It’s noticeable, and when I noticed how bad it it’s I made it a point to watch more and it’s horrific.

 

[CardiacCuse]

It’s a real head scratcher. We are the opposite team of what we were in the first half of the season. In the last 10 games, our offense efficiency ranks 36th and defense ranks 204. Earlier in the season, our defensive efficiency was top 25 but we couldn’t score the ball for the life of us. If only we could pair our early season defense effort with our new found ability to score the ball. We might be a dangerous team then.

they were pouring everything they had into the defense earlier in the year and I think it hurt the offense

only so much energy to expend

now that they are playing matador D the offense is good

now to find the sweet spot

 

[billsin01]

For the season vs last 2 seasons:

Better Defensive Rating - We're 188th out of 362 currently, 2 years ago were were 323

We allow 8 3's a game vs 10 3s a game the last 2 seasons

The defense is not good. It's better than the last 2 years. Recency bias (and agenda) makes some of you think otherwise.

Dude. I don't know if this is directed at me but I have zero agenda. Loved JB, was fine with the zone for a long time, but completely fine with them hiring Red and have said since long before the transition ever took place that these things always go in-house. Zero agenda, other than seeing us hopefully restore a bit of the luster to this program.

So the point of the post was two very simple things:

1) That 8-game stretch is objectively putrid defense.
2) There are likely many reasons. Personnel, injuries, effort, rebounding, transition defense, and strategy/coaching. It's not one thing and it is never one thing. It

Now, if we are committed to playing mostly m2m going forward -- great! That's cool. Still would like to see us use some sort of zone for a few minutes a half to get McLeod on the floor when healthy because he cannot play on the perimeter in man, but otherwise, pressure man is cool with me.

I also noted that I think our high ball-screen defense has improved significantly. I also think Red is pretty close to getting the ceiling out of this team at least in terms of wins/losses.

But, if you've watched this team play defense this season and found yourself not thinking there are improvements we'll have to make if we want to get back to being a top-25 type team, I don't know what to tell you. That's not a knock on Red or JB or even the players ... at least not beyond simply stating that there are plenty of things to work on in the offseason for all involved.

 

[billsin01]

I am not so sure I see a lot of anti-Red agenda around here. Seems like everyone wants him to be successful, and most are willing to give him a fair shot.

There is important context behind those numbers you are not acknowledging. Last year we were a horrible defensive team, but we were consistently bad from beginning to end, mostly because we played a lot of bad defenders and freshmen.

This year we started off quite well (only averaging 69 ppg allowed in the first 13 games against a tough schedule) but we've been getting worse and worse as the year goes on. Injuries (especially McLeod's) has affected this some, but doesn't account for it all. The fact that we continue to get worse defensively is a clue that the way we play has major flaws that teams are able to figure out and capitalize on.

Our best defense this year was better than our best defense last year but that all came early when nobody had video of how to play against Red's style, and I would argue were accidentally playing right into our strengths.

Our worst defense this year is just as bad as our worst defense last year, but it's coming late in the season, which to me is concerning.

I'm not ready to push the panick button, we had a lot of bad luck personnel-wise, but I think it's fair to say Red needs to rework his defense in the offseason and his ability to do so is the most important part of our future success (or lack there of) and something fans should be paying close attention to next year.

wish i had seen this before i posted my response. Yeah, I agree. I'm not on the panic button in any way, but Red will have to learn a bit from this and adjust. All coaches -- especially first-year coaches -- have to evaluate and adapt. Can he do it? I have no reason to think he can't. But he will absolutely need to adjust a bit.

 

[djcon57]

Dude. I don't know if this is directed at me but I have zero agenda. Loved JB, was fine with the zone for a long time, but completely fine with them hiring Red and have said since long before the transition ever took place that these things always go in-house. Zero agenda, other than seeing us hopefully restore a bit of the luster to this program.

So the point of the post was two very simple things:

1) That 8-game stretch is objectively putrid defense.
2) There are likely many reasons. Personnel, injuries, effort, rebounding, transition defense, and strategy/coaching. It's not one thing and it is never one thing. It

Now, if we are committed to playing mostly m2m going forward -- great! That's cool. Still would like to see us use some sort of zone for a few minutes a half to get McLeod on the floor when healthy because he cannot play on the perimeter in man, but otherwise, pressure man is cool with me.

I also noted that I think our high ball-screen defense has improved significantly. I also think Red is pretty close to getting the ceiling out of this team at least in terms of wins/losses.

But, if you've watched this team play defense this season and found yourself not thinking there are improvements we'll have to make if we want to get back to being a top-25 type team, I don't know what to tell you. That's not a knock on Red or JB or even the players ... at least not beyond simply stating that there are plenty of things to work on in the offseason for all involved.

No not at you at all. You just asked the question.

 

[billsin01]

Wasn't an anti Red agenda I was speaking about.

The context of the numbers is simply a response to the question the OP, anything else that was implied that I said is coming from other posters.

Is this the worst our defense has been? Nope. That was the context of the numbers posted. Simple as that.

Do I share your concern about the defense? Absolutely. I posted nonstop about Red's refusal to adjust to the NBA like 2 man game to setup a mismatch on Bell. It almost cost us the game. The injuries and lack of depth are for sure hurting us though. I'm willing to see what he can do to adjust in year 2 with a different group. If we see the same issues, we have a problem

So you don't think that's the worst 8-game stretch? I'm fascinated by this. I could be wrong, but even just eye-test wise, teams look incredibly comfortable against us and get wide open looks on simple actions. It's pretty brutal. I'd also suggest that as inconsistent as our effort has been and as limited as some of our guys are defensively, it's actually a more athletic roster than the past two seasons, which weren't pretty obviously.

 

[djcon57]

So you don't think that's the worst 8-game stretch? I'm fascinated by this. I could be wrong, but even just eye-test wise, teams look incredibly comfortable against us and get wide open looks on simple actions. It's pretty brutal. I'd also suggest that as inconsistent as our effort has been and as limited as some of our guys are defensively, it's actually a more athletic roster than the past two seasons, which weren't pretty obviously.

Look back 2 years and include the pace we play at currently. It’s not good, but no, I wouldn’t call it the worst 8 game stretch.

 

[billsin01]

Look back 2 years and include the pace we play at currently. It’s not good, but no, I wouldn’t call it the worst 8 game stretch.

Fair enough. I guess the massive barrage of threes we gave up makes a big difference. Been a tough three-year stretch defensively regardless.

 

[Red2003]

Not a perfect comparison since it is SU's possession count, but if we look at

2022-2023: 70.8 poss/game giving up 72.9 points or ~1.030/poss
2023-2024: 73.7 poss/game giving up 75.7 points or ~1.027/poss

The difference is negligible honestly, only 0.25%. Now if you look 2023-2024 vs 2021-2022, that is a sizeable difference of 2%

Nice, thanks for this. It's crazy how close it ended up.

 

[JaySU22]

It’s a real head scratcher. We are the opposite team of what we were in the first half of the season. In the last 10 games, our offense efficiency ranks 36th and defense ranks 204. Earlier in the season, our defensive efficiency was top 25 but we couldn’t score the ball for the life of us. If only we could pair our early season defense effort with our new found ability to score the ball. We might be a dangerous team then.

This is wild to me. Can’t remember ever being good on D and bad on O for 20 games and then it doing a complete 180 on the back half of the season.

If we can get the D back to a respectable level we’ll be a tough out.

 

[Sherman20]

The worst stretch of defense in my lifetime as a fan? I'm not sure, but man, those numbers are brutal.

• In 8 games, we've allowed 82.5 ppg on .538 shooting, .456 from three, and we're an average of -12 on the glass.
• Four of our opponents have shot 60%+ for a game and five of our opponents have shot at least 44% from three while taking at least 19 threes.
• Take the Ga Tech game out and the numbers are even worse. Tech shot .393 and .280 from three.

I think there will be a lot of folks that point to individuals as well as collective effort and attitude. Those a factors but we need to go back to the drawing board on our defensive approach this offseason. How we're 4-4 in this stretch is absolutely mind-boggling.

Our defense fell totally apart at the end of last season too. Teams were killing us from 3 the last month or so—even worse than earlier in the season. The zone was getting shredded. I don’t know the stats but they were bad, maybe worse than this stretch.

 

[upperdeck]

We are playing better on D for much of the possessions. We get steals.. But we let teams get into simple sets and break down for easy scores.

not sure how to fix it, some of it is we still need to score and we have guys with holes in both sides of their game.

 

[Sherman20]

For the season vs last 2 seasons:

Better Defensive Rating - We're 188th out of 362 currently, 2 years ago were were 323

We allow 8 3's a game vs 10 3s a game the last 2 seasons

The defense is not good. It's better than the last 2 years. Recency bias (and agenda) makes some of you think otherwise.

We’re still top 100 in KenPom defensive efficiency. Not great but not terrible. We had been top 50 earlier in the season.