Can Someone Explain Moore's Season to Me?

[dasher]

I'm quite aware of the two sources of player payments. However, they're really distinctions without a difference when it comes down to how much each school can spend.

Everyone in P5 hoops has the same cap on direct payments (~$20.5M). But needless to say, there will continue to be wiiiiiide variances in what some schools can spend via collectives vs. others.

So, it's great SU will have 2X the player compensation fund than they did last summer. If other schools have 4X, and player compensation rates grow av average of 4X, we're worse off than we are now.

No it won't. If we have 2.5 million and other schools have 8 million, we are at a very big disadvantage. If we have 20 million and other schools have 30 million, it is a lot closer. In the second example, we have enough to compete and get guys we want. Not everyone we want but most of them. The disadvantage shrinks with the more money you have. Schools are not going to be spending 4 million for a player. Not yet anyway.

 

[orangecuse]

There is a provision in House that all third party NIL deals would have to be reviewed by a clearinghouse that would evaluate for fair market value. Unfortuntately this provision has been one of the holdups in final approval and may well end up being stricken when the fairness hearings are conducted in early April

That's what appears problematic, at least from a potential legal standpoint. If there is to be a $20 mil + or whatever cap, how can they still have NIL collectives in a similar/same manner in which it has operated to date? Everyone knows that NIL, collectives, etc. in its current state isn't NIL at all (in the true sense of the word) but rather a complete facade of 100% pay for play. The only way a particular player, etc. can honestly, perhaps more importantly, legally, skirt those set limitations, etc., is if that player signs (based upon his own true/legit NIL) an exclusive deal with whatever entity wanting that individual pitching its product, services, etc.

 

[Scooch]

No it won't. If we have 2.5 million and other schools have 8 million, we are at a very big disadvantage. If we have 20 million and other schools have 30 million, it is a lot closer. In the second example, we have enough to compete and get guys we want. Not everyone we want but most of them. The disadvantage shrinks with the more money you have. Schools are not going to be spending 4 million for a player. Not yet anyway.

$20 million?!

If hoops gets 20% of our direct payment fund, that's $4 million. Our NIL budget last year was reportedly $2.5 million.

Are we actually adding an incremental $14 million to our NIL funding this year? That's what'd it'll take to get us to $20 million.

 

[Consigliere]

$20 million?!

If hoops gets 20% of our direct payment fund, that's $4 million. Our NIL budget last year was reportedly $2.5 million.

Are we actually adding an incremental $14 million to our NIL funding this year? That's what'd it'll take to get us to $20 million.

I think there is a perception that the$20MM is just sitting there waiting for the okay to distribute. In fact, while there is a high level of confidence that we will have the funding to support maximum direct payments, a good portion of that will come from donors who are currently contributing to our NIL collectives, Some prominent programs are shutting down their preferred collectives bringing all fund raising in house and facilitating deals with third parties for true NIL transactions. To my knowledge, SU has not made a final determination how the relationship with their three major collectives will evolve at this point.

 

[Consigliere]

That's what appears problematic, at least from a potential legal standpoint. If there is to be a $20 mil + or whatever cap, how can they still have NIL collectives in a similar/same manner in which it has operated to date? Everyone knows that NIL, collectives, etc. in its current state isn't NIL at all (in the true sense of the word) but rather a complete facade of 100% pay for play. The only way a particular player, etc. can honestly, perhaps more importantly, legally, skirt those set limitations, etc., is if that player signs (based upon his own true/legit NIL) an exclusive deal with whatever entity wanting that individual pitching its product, services, etc.

Much the same as the NFL salary cap contols how much the Chiefs can pay Patrick Mahomes, but has no impact on how much he can make from T-Mobile or State Farm. Nor should it.

Issue with translating that to college sports is that State Farm and T Mobile make a business decision to partner with Mahomes and how much he is worth to the brand as an endorser on a national level. As you mention, current state of NIL has nothing to do with compensating a player for use of his or her name, image or likeness and the resultant transactions have nothing to do with the value of the endorsement. It's largely pure pay for play by business owners or high roller donors who want to see their teams at a local level win games. Hence the need for some type of clearinghouse, Absent that nothing will help the competitive balance and the floor for athlete compensation simply raises exponentially.

 

[orangecuse]

Much the same as the NFL salary cap contols how much the Chiefs can pay Patrick Mahomes, but has no impact on how much he can make from T-Mobile or State Farm. Nor should it.

Issue with translating that to college sports is that State Farm and T Mobile make a business decision to partner with Mahomes and how much he is worth to the brand as an endorser on a national level. As you mention, current state of NIL has nothing to do with compensating a player for use of his or her name, image or likeness and the resultant transactions have nothing to do with the value of the endorsement. It's largely pure pay for play by business owners or high roller donors who want to see their teams at a local level win games. Hence the need for some type of clearinghouse, Absent that nothing will help the competitive balance and the floor for athlete compensation simply raises exponentially.

Exactly, which was the point I was attempting to make. Salary cap per team, et al has absolutely nothing to do with one's true NIL prosperity, etc. Just stop calling the $20M + cap, etc. NIL in any way, shape or form. It's complete malarkey, and, rather insulting IMO. If the NCAA powers that be, etc. don't want to use the word "salary" or similar, I think the NCAA Player 'Winfall Cap' has a nice ring to it.

 

[Scooch]

I think there is a perception that the$20MM is just sitting there waiting for the okay to distribute. In fact, while there is a high level of confidence that we will have the funding to support maximum direct payments, a good portion of that will come from donors who are currently contributing to our NIL collectives, Some prominent programs are shutting down their preferred collectives bringing all fund raising in house and facilitating deals with third parties for true NIL transactions. To my knowledge, SU has not made a final determination how the relationship with their three major collectives will evolve at this point.

Agree. Plus, the $20 million is for all sports. And we know that football is going to gobble up 75% of that.

SU basketball alone is certainly not going to have a $20M player compensation budget.

 

[Red2003]

Carlos is probably going to end the season either 2nd or 3rd on the team in minutes, and that's insane.

Nightmare.

 

[tptcuse]

Carlos is probably going to end the season either 2nd or 3rd on the team in minutes, and that's insane.

This is pure speculation, but it feels very much like Red plays the players he likes as people. Carlos and Justin Taylor last year are glaring examples. JT is averaging 1.8 ppg in 10 minutes a game at JMU. He played 23 minutes a game here last year.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This is pure speculation, but it feels very much like Red plays the players he likes as people. Carlos and Justin Taylor last year are glaring examples. JT is averaging 1.8 ppg in 10 minutes a game at JMU. He played 23 minutes a game here last year.

That's wild.

 

[hoopsupstate]

This is pure speculation, but it feels very much like Red plays the players he likes as people. Carlos and Justin Taylor last year are glaring examples. JT is averaging 1.8 ppg in 10 minutes a game at JMU. He played 23 minutes a game here last year.

It’s a little ironic that Justin Taylor would be our lockdown defensive player on this team.

 

[orangemass]

He’s been beoheimed/autreyed

 

[Dinkyspond]

This is pure speculation, but it feels very much like Red plays the players he likes as people. Carlos and Justin Taylor last year are glaring examples. JT is averaging 1.8 ppg in 10 minutes a game at JMU. He played 23 minutes a game here last year.

We really had no else to play the 3, he kind of played that much by default. He is a not a high major or mid-major player. Maybe the Patriot League.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

they're already playing at a lower level program. so how is that worse ?

Seems like you’re intent on contriving a ridiculous and specious argument. Is that your standard practice, to quote only snippets and then distort context? You just finished an assertion that some players transferred to ‘better’ situations and now you’re suggesting there are no ‘worse’ situations.… Can’t have it both ways unless McNeese State, Highpoint, UCF… are equals to us and there are only two ‘tiers.’ Is that what it is? We’re so low that there is only us and above?

 

[Orangefan1]

I’m sorry I know people are pissed off but having Melos kid come here and White who is a star player brings me some hope. Tonight we played really well for a period of time but we lack that killer instinct. I am also sympathetic given Donnie who is clearly our most talented player has been out for a period of time. I know some want to throw in the towel on Autry but given his dedication to the program and that he is a former player I’m willing to see this through. It can’t get much worse than where we are right now that’s for sure

 

[jdubs30]

0 minutes tonight? Will he ever play here again?

 

[tptcuse]

0 minutes tonight? Will he ever play here again?

He's injured

 

[Sherman20]

I'm quite aware of the two sources of player payments. However, they're really distinctions without a difference when it comes down to how much each school can spend.

Everyone in P5 hoops has the same cap on direct payments (~$20.5M). But needless to say, there will continue to be wiiiiiide variances in what some schools can spend via collectives vs. others.

So, it's great SU will have 2X the player compensation fund than they did last summer. If other schools have 4X, and player compensation rates grow av average of 4X, we're worse off than we are now.

Exactly. If NIL collectives still exist, I still don’t see how we can compete with the large land grant universities with huge alumni bases.

 

[kcsu]

He's injured

Wonder if he shuts it down for the year

 

[IthacaMatt]

He's injured

So they say.

 

[Chip]

One thing I learned recently. If a school opts to award additional scholarships as allowed by House, the first $2.5MM of that funding comes out of the revenue sharing cap leaving $18MM for direct payments. The numbers I have heard are similar to what Orange United is currently budgeting with general contributions. 75% football, 20% basketball, 5% all else. So that would be $3.6MM for basketball PLUS at least $1MM from the Vegas tournament PLUS earmarked NIL contributions from third party individuals and businesses. That would be more than double the NIL expenditures for men's hoops this year.

For reference the highest planned allotment I have seen for men's basketball is at Louisville where they are budgeting 30% for hoops.

Of course other programs will see a similar bunp, so the average payment to a scholarship player at a P4 school on a 12 man roster would be something like a half million dollars. Absurd!

I apologize if these have been answered, and that I barely have a kindergarten understanding of this potential House ruling.

My comments or questions:

1. $20.5M for schools that opt in. Where is this money coming from? Is this just saying that the schools can use up to $20.5M of their own budget?

2. $2.5M comes out of the revenue sharing cap. Where is that money going?

3. $18M remains and schools will use it as they see fit between the sports. But if they have donor money that exceeds this they can still use that too?

4. There's a provision on the table for all NIL deals to be reviewed (that might be removed to pass the bill). What NIL are we talking about? True NIL, or pay to play NIL or both?

5. We get $1M to give to players because of going to a Vegas tournament? Is this true NIL? I hope we play in this tournament every year forever.

(My apologies to the board for my triggering use of the letters N, I, and L in succession but it's a lot to type out).

 

[pwong]

I apologize if these have been answered, and that I barely have a kindergarten understanding of this potential House ruling.

My comments or questions:

1. $20.5M for schools that opt in. Where is this money coming from? Is this just saying that the schools can use up to $20.5M of their own budget?

2. $2.5M comes out of the revenue sharing cap. Where is that money going?

3. $18M remains and schools will use it as they see fit between the sports. But if they have donor money that exceeds this they can still use that too?

4. There's a provision on the table for all NIL deals to be reviewed (that might be removed to pass the bill). What NIL are we talking about? True NIL, or pay to play NIL or both?

5. We get $1M to give to players because of going to a Vegas tournament? Is this true NIL? I hope we play in this tournament every year forever.

(My apologies to the board for my triggering use of the letters N, I, and L in succession but it's a lot to type out).

There is a rev share cap of up to $20.5M across all sports that schools will directly pay to players. Schools decide how much of the rev share cap they will allocate to each individual sport (schools don’t need to fully pay out the entire $20.5M, its just the max amount for all sports combined).

NIL collectives will still exist (bc no regulations) so booster money, $1M from NIL tourney, endorsements, etc will be another source of player income.

 

[Consigliere]

1. Good question. Money comes from the Athletics Department which breaks even at best. Funding needs to come from additional donations, additional revenue streams like the shared pool from the expanded CFP, reallocation of donor funds from facilities to direct payments to athletes or cost cutting measures.

2. The $2.5MM covers the additional scholarships allowed by House. Football alone goes from 85 to 105, and while this is now a roster cap and not a scholarship limit, the cost of each scholarship over 85 goes against the $20.5MM up to $2.5MM.

3. Donations to collectives can fund additional payments to athletes. Businesses or individuals can still engage in NIL transactions outside either of these channels. Donations to the school’s athletic programs in excess of the $2.5MM cannot be used for direct payments.

4. Proposed settlement is for all third party transactions to be subject to clearinghouse review. The pushback on this proposal has been significant but now coaches groups are coming out in support of it. Will be interesting to see if this survives the April hearings.

5. The Vegas tournament lump sum payment goes to the school’s preferred collective. Collective could conceivably use as they see fit but expectation is that 100% will go to men’s basketball. There will also be one off opportunities for individual players in and around Vegas during the tournament.

Hope this helps. Very dynamic environment and things can change but this is essentially where we are today.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Where does it all end? Players are just going to keep raising their prices. Jimmy Butler’s NBA contract gives him $650k per game. That’s insanity money.

If a Lampkin costs $800k/season this year, next year it’ll be a million. Two years after that, two million. The kid that signed up with BYU for seven million… his equivalent for 2027 will cost 10 million. Even as the overall college basketball product dwindles in quality. Ticket prices go up, cable/streaming prices increase, and tuition costs skyrocket.

We have gambling and weed and AI and professional college athlete mercenaries. Yay!

False. The world sucks.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Moore was a big time recruit, right? 247 had him as a 4-star, 10th best SG in his class, and 59th overall.

He had a bumpy start over his first 4 games. But then starting with Texas Tech he seemed to lock in. From that game through Maryland, 7 games, he hit 34 of 67 FGA (51%), 13-32 from three (41%), scored 12.4 PPG and averaged 26 minutes/game.

Then there's a week off between Maryland and Bucknell. From that game until yesterday (15 games) he's averaged 12 mins/game, shot 13-50 FGA (26%), 9-34 from three (27%) and 2.4 PPG.

And it's not like his minutes were gradually trimmed due to poor play. He went from 36 mins vs. G'town and 22 vs. Maryland, to 16 vs. Bucknell, 6 vs. FSU and 3 vs. Wake Forest. He turned from a heavy minute guy to a non-entity in 3 games.

What gives? Why was his playing time reduced so severely and so quickly? Defense? A bad attitude?

It's really perplexing. And all we get from Autry is "coach's decision".

Point one: Freshman Point two injured toe. ButI also have the luxury of learning point two last night.