People calling for m2m is comical

[AZOrange]

Because it was the reason why we won? Pitt absolutely shredded our zone in the first half and we locked them down in the 2nd half. Also, that's probably one of our most memorable regular season wins ever, and certainly the best game I was ever at so its very memorable for me.

you must have a bigger brain than me, if you can store this type of info.

 

[sabach]

what bearing does it have on this team? We probably won a couple games in 1986 with it also. So what?

The bearing is that it is not an option for this team and the thought is that if it were an option maybe it would help here and there like it did that year. Not playing man to man is not the reason why we are losing. We are losing because we recruit kids to play zone and give up offense to do so but then when they can't play zone we are screwed on both sides of the fence.

 

[rrlbees]

Watch carefully next game. The wings are coming high and they just sort of hang out there. It often creates a 2-on-1 on the ball for no reason. I understand why they need to hedge on the ball - they have to wait for the guard to slide over. The problem is that they are incredibly lazy about dropping back. Either lazy or they're bring coached differently.

Then I guess we're playing 4 on 2 up top and allowing our center to cover 3 players. Don't think that's our defense.

 

[FrancoPizza]

you must have a bigger brain than me, if you can store this type of info.

Not bigger, just less inebriated.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Then I guess we're playing 4 on 2 up top and allowing our center to cover 3 players. Don't think that's our defense.

We're calling it a 4-1 because it's a meme for whatever the heck the wings are doing these days. Splitting hairs over what to call it is missing the bigger picture -- that we have forwards consistently out of position in a scheme where positioning is paramount.

 

[Jake]

As RF said, we didn't play M2m in 2003. And all the zone haters are failing to mention that we've been in the top 20 of KenPom's defensive efficiency ratings for the majority of the past decade. The zone works when we have the pieces. The pieces are lacking this year, but they are lacking to execute M2M as well. This isn't a silver bullet that's going to save our season.

ding ding ding. I'll add that the years in which I wish we would play some M2M is when we have the athletes and depth to do so. We have neither. Switching to m2m this year would be a disaster. We have mismatches at every position especially the 1-2-4-5's. Other than that we'd be fine.

 

[FrancoPizza]

ding ding ding

I don't think anyone is suggesting it was going to save anything this year. But gosh darn it, if we keep slitting our wrists with a razor, let's at least try something else... and if it still makes us bleed, we can always go back to the trusty razor.

 

[AZOrange]

Not bigger, just less inebriated.

No it's well known OrangeDW is bigger upstairs and AZO is bigger downstairs.

 

[KevMonstah]

Many years ago, JB would play the zone defense to protect against an inside game, when he had undersized lineups. Now he's trying to adapt it to cover the perimeter AND protect the inside, and that just isn't going to work with Coleman or Lydon in the post. Next year, I'm guessing it'll do better inside with Chukwu, but Dajuan on the wing isn't going to be able to play up high and get to the corner. I think he needs to be a little quicker to adjusting the focus of the zone: IF they opponent is hitting from deeper, extend it, but they aren't, pack in more. And quickly do this. Carolina hit few from deep, but shot 66% inside the arc. They made every inside shot look so effortless. Clemson unfortunately hit 47% from three and almost 60% from two. Miami sucked in the first half, but got to 50% from the field in the second. Pitt was bad from deep, but hit more than 50% from shallow. (note, absurd opponent FT% not helpful either) A little less emphasis on covering the three pointer way, way out, at least until they make a few, might help.

Kev

 

[RF2044]

Many years ago, JB would play the zone defense to protect against an inside game, when he had undersized lineups. Now he's trying to adapt it to cover the perimeter AND protect the inside, and that just isn't going to work with Coleman or Lydon in the post. Next year, I'm guessing it'll do better inside with Chukwu, but Dajuan on the wing isn't going to be able to play up high and get to the corner. I think he needs to be a little quicker to adjusting the focus of the zone: IF they opponent is hitting from deeper, extend it, but they aren't, pack in more. And quickly do this. Carolina hit few from deep, but shot 66% inside the arc. They made every inside shot look so effortless. Clemson unfortunately hit 47% from three and almost 60% from two. Miami sucked in the first half, but got to 50% from the field in the second. Pitt was bad from deep, but hit more than 50% from shallow. (note, absurd opponent FT% not helpful either) A little less emphasis on covering the three pointer way, way out, at least until they make a few, might help.

Kev

Good point about Coleman / Lydon inside. I'll add that the zone's effectiveness is also tied to our rebounding. Everybody points out the astronomically good DFG%, but what good is that when we give up multiple offensive rebounds that result in a score? Net result--it doesn't matter if they miss two or three times if they eventually get the bucket. We've been horrible on the defensive boards this season, last game notwithstanding.

 

[NineOneSeven]

This just win- we're bad.

 

[HOFCeluck]

The last three classes prior to this freshman class have given us zero consistent performers on a major D1 level. That's why we suck.

 

[realorange]

The M2M argument is next to worthless with JB as coach.
Let's say he did try it this year. Coleman and Lydon would be lucky to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes. Plus we'd not only have Cooney running 10 miles, we have everybody moving much more than they do now. Bench? Rest? End of game gas?

 

[HOFCeluck]

Kinda? Either we played it or we didn't.

Sad thing is how ANY so called fan could forget such obvious footnotes from those 2 great dome wins. They were easily 2 of the better games from the title season. Both were rousing comebacks that had the dome rocking like the 80s.

Shame. Shame. That's the equivalent of saying we beat wvu in 87 on a PAT.

Ok then to be precise, in 2003 we played M2M for, at best, 1.5 out of 35 games.

 

[Orangeman]

we will not do it. Adjustments are made in the zone

What about the other night, up 3 against Clemson with under 10 secs left.

Let's say they call a TO and put in 5 good 3 point shooters, it would be possible for our 2-3 zone to guard the line against 5 guys with our center in the middle. You'd be giving up a wide open shot to one of the guys on the line

That's what happens on a micro level when another team needs a shot.

The dirty secret is that a zone is supposed to average out over the course of a game or season, but it can be manipulated on a given possession to get a wide open three if need be.

Simply overload one side with five guys (top center, low block, wing, corner and cutter from the paint to either wing depending on ball movement)

Bang, we now have Roberson on the far side not guarding anyone, and they have an open shot.

You'll hear arguments that the zone flexes etc but it really doesn't. Whenever you see the C flying out to defend a corner three you know we've been had (open shot AND no rebounding)

Zone it's good strategy when employed appropriately, but it's not good when 60% of college players can make a wide-open, step-in twenty-one foot shot, vs the 20% about 15 years ago (yes, I just made up those numbers but I think they're right)

Go back and watch the Marquette games for how they'd overload our zone...the book is out

I also think it's harming recruiting and our tempo/offense.

Sounds like there's no room for debate here though!

 

[newmexicuse]

The M2M argument is next to worthless with JB as coach.
Let's say he did try it this year. Coleman and Lydon would be lucky to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes. Plus we'd not only have Cooney running 10 miles, we have everybody moving much more than they do now. Bench? Rest? End of game gas?

Why do the Zonies not get it ? Nobody here is advocating that we use M2M as our primary D with our current roster. All some of us want to see is some mixing up of the D's for a few minutes here or there. Even just switching for one or two trips down the court periodically would cause our foes to have to change the rhythm they have established against our all too predictable zone D.

I just do not inderstand the 100% dogmatism by our HOF coach and his ardent supporters.

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but it does seem to me that if something isn't working, that you adjust and try something else.

Is "Thou shalt play Zone" the 11th commandment ???

 

[Townie72]

Why do the Zonies not get it ? Nobody here is advocating that we use M2M as our primary D with our current roster. All some of us want to see is some mixing up of the D's for a few minutes here or there. Even just switching for one or two trips down the court periodically would cause our foes to have to change the rhythm they have established against our all too predictable zone D.

I just do not inderstand the 100% dogmatism by our HOF coach and his ardent supporters.

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but it does seem to me that if something isn't working, that you adjust and try something else.

Is "Thou shalt play Zone" the 11th commandment ???

Read the book. You will then understand.

 

[Orangeman]

What does m2m solve? That's my biggest question. I don't see it helping us much in the paint, so I'm not sure where the benefit comes in.

Teams who are weak inside utilize heavy ball pressure outside to prevent easy entry passes and post-ups

We have four guards, they could go hard for stretches, catch a breath, etc

 

[HOFCeluck]

Read the book. You will then understand.

There are arguements against JBs points in the book , too

It's like you think that a bunch of people who post on a Syracuse internet message board regularly never read Boeheims book.

 

[Townie72]

There are arguements against JBs points in the book , too

It's like you think that a bunch of people who post on a Syracuse internet message board regularly never read Boeheims book.

Fine. Just go through his points, list them and refute each one.

I was particularly struck by his point on how few offensive alternatives there are against a zone. And since there were relatively few, it meant the team could concentrate on these. Zone, according to him, takes far less practice time than does M2M.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Fine. Just go through his points, list them and refute each one.

I was particularly struck by his point on how few offensive alternatives there are against a zone. And since there were relatively few, it meant the team could concentrate on these. Zone, according to him, takes far less practice time than does M2M.

Great. So if it takes less time to practice, it shouldn't be hard to develop a backup .

 

[rrlbees]

We're calling it a 4-1 because it's a meme for whatever the heck the wings are doing these days. Splitting hairs over what to call it is missing the bigger picture -- that we have forwards consistently out of position in a scheme where positioning is paramount.

It's pretty much 1 game where it's been a huge issue. That game being UNC where they sliced it up from the corners. Most games we get eaten up inside, not because of the 2-3 zone but because we are poor defenses inside. We've known that since day 1. So constantly saying we are playing a 4-1 defense is a lazy meme.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Great. So if it takes less time to practice, it shouldn't be hard to develop a backup .

He walked right into that one.

 

[newmexicuse]

It's pretty much 1 game where it's been a huge issue. That game being UNC where they sliced it up from the corners. Most games we get eaten up inside, not because of the 2-3 zone but because we are poor defenses inside. We've known that since day 1. So constantly saying we are playing a 4-1 defense is a lazy meme.

To say that we are playing a 4 - 1 is a euphemism. The reason people are saying this is because in order to effectively guard the middle (unless there is a huge shot blocking center available) the wings have to be close enough to help defend the entry pass. All season long that has not happened. Our opponents can throw the entry pass unmolested and at will. It is particularly apparent when Lydon plays the 5 because he can just get boxed away from the entry pass easily. At least DC2 commands his space even if he lacks the size and hops to really defend once the ball is posted. On top of that we are not particularly long in the wings.

To me it is arguable that the game has passed the Zone by because every team now has multiple three point shooters and it is difficult for us to both defend the trey line and get back to help deny the entry pass inside. Next season will be key. We will have a big center and two long forwards, so we will have the right personnel for our system. If the job is still not getting done than it will be time to say sayonara to the Zone as a primary D.

 

[RF2044]

Why do the Zonies not get it ? Nobody here is advocating that we use M2M as our primary D with our current roster. All some of us want to see is some mixing up of the D's for a few minutes here or there. Even just switching for one or two trips down the court periodically would cause our foes to have to change the rhythm they have established against our all too predictable zone D.

I just do not inderstand the 100% dogmatism by our HOF coach and his ardent supporters.

I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but it does seem to me that if something isn't working, that you adjust and try something else.

Is "Thou shalt play Zone" the 11th commandment ???

On the straw man garbage scale, this post rates an 11.

"Zonies" -- oy vey... the hyperbole is getting thick in here.