philip thomas fb status

[SmilinBob]

I understand that the fans, players/staff and SU have to work together in this, absolutely they do. Again, I'd rather go with the positives in this and not the negatives because those get harped on over and over again. I think the School and players/staff are doing right right now and it's our turn to step up to the plate and help.

Look, I'm not an innocent in this because Shaw peeved me off and P stopped recruiting and Jake wasn't being proactive, this in my opinion. To me, the opposite has occurred and it's time to give back. Now will the University stick it to us once this thing gets going like many schools do once they have the advantage, probably but that's what businesses do but they have to continue doing good business if they are going to do so fine, but keep producing positive results.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but the program, the players, and the coaching staff are not entitled to having fans, not when fans have to make a choice and a time commitment and a financial sacrifice to support them. Those fans have to be earned, and the bottom line is that a large number of fans felt that the team didn't earn their support beyond three quarters. It makes no difference whether it's true that they deserved to have them there for the whole game, or that those fans should have been "better" fans. What matters is that those fans were put in a position to make a choice like that, and the evidence was compelling enough to them to go that they didn't stick it out.

Unless SU refunds a prorated portion of the ticket price at halftime, the fan has already made his non-refundable financial contribution. There's nothing to be gained by leaving early.

Maybe fans should get up and leave if their team doesn't win the coin flip?

Or maybe fans should refuse to buy tickets anytime their team isn't favored to win?

Unless their team is a unanimous pre-season pick to win the National Championship, maybe fans should just cancel their season tickets, and alumni should renounce their diplomas.

Fans will always support their programs, win or lose. There is no "in game" choice.

Bandwagon jumpers feel that their support has to be earned, and that it can be withdrawn at any time ... even during a game.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Unless SU refunds a prorated portion of the ticket price at halftime, the fan has already made his non-refundable financial contribution. There's nothing to be gained by leaving early.

But see, there must be something to be gained, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving. They actually decided to flush that cash away because they thought the chances of seeing something worthwhile were so low they would cut their financial losses and gain their time back.

If you think about it, that's actually a really, really damning statement on what people that came in optimistic thought about the program at the time that they left. At the start they thought it was worth the money and the time, and what they thought changed. Did it change arbitrarily, or did they feel they had a reason to change?

Maybe fans should get up and leave if their team doesn't win the coin flip?

I suppose they could make that choice.

Or maybe fans should refuse to buy tickets anytime their team isn't favored to win?

Fans do make that choice. They also make that choice when the matchup looks too easy. Remember, I said before it isn't just about winning.

Unless their team is a unanimous pre-season pick to win the National Championship, maybe fans should just cancel their season tickets, and alumni should renounce their diplomas.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that one. I think you're painting my position as much more extreme than it really is.

Fans will always support their programs, win or lose. There is no "in game" choice.

This is what I'm talking about. You're discussing things in terms of how things should be, not in how they actually are or how fans actually behave. There is an in-game choice, and fans will make it one way or another.

Bandwagon jumpers feel that their support has to be earned, and that it can be withdrawn at any time ... even during a game.

For the purposes of in-game attendance, there is no difference between a fan and a bandwagon jumper. None. Another unpopular statement that I feel to be true - aside from the major donors, the bandwagon fans are the most important demographic to the longterm health of the Syracuse program than the "real fans."

 

[OttoinGrotto]

A lot of programs have endured lean times ... to say Syracuse is unique in that respect is foolish at best.

I did not say Syracuse is unique. I just said that it's a factual statement that Syracuse has gone through lean times.

Again I can't stress this enough ... there are parts of this country that fans show no matter what ... stadiums are packed ... people are in the seats whether the team wins or loses ...

While this is true, I feel this is irrelevant to Syracuse's situation. We can acknowledge it but it doesn't change anything. Maybe I've over looked something though - if you can think of something that it changes to acknowledge it, let me know.

why the hell would a casual fan go to a game and leave early after spending that $$$ on a ticket?

I don't really know. But apparently they do. A lot of them too. I'm saying, let's stop talking about what they should do but aren't, and talk about ways that they are compelled to do what we think they should.

People are fans and watch a game because they love it ...

That's one reason. There are many others.

Phillip Thomas didn't "earn" my fan hood ... and to think that he needs to earn it is ridiculous at best.

I disagree.

I love the program ... grew up watching them for countless Saturdays.

Me too!

I watch because I love the game and my school ... so in other words what you are saying is that each and every year you have to renew your fandom based on the roster right? Um yeah ...

No. I'm saying though that there is a segment of the potential fan base that requires that they are won over in order to participate as a fan, and those fans really, really matter.

And FWIW if it were that easy to be prepared to play from the start then any average idiot poster could be a coach ...

You do not want to get me started down that road.

that is why adjustments ... which is something Syracuse made ... is critical ... and one more reason they play 4 quarters instead of 3 ...

Agree with all of that.

just ask Lebron James ... sounds like he has yet to earn the right to have fans too ...

I take it you don't know my posting history if you're using Lebron James in that context to support your argument with me.

Good back and forth. I appreciate that you took the time to provide a thoughtful response like that. I'm hitting my thesis pretty hard today and it is extremely mind numbing.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

But see, there must be something to be gained, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving. They actually decided to flush that cash away because they thought the chances of seeing something worthwhile were so low they would cut their financial losses and gain their time back.

What did the people who left early actually gain?

They didn't get refunds, so there was no financial gain.

If you left at 10 PM, did you really accomplish anything with the extra few minutes of free time you gained?

If you take a day off from work to attend the NYS Fair and see a concert at the Grandstand, do you gain anything by leaving after 2 or 3 songs?

You don't get your ticket money back. You don't get your vacation day back. You're not being charged on a "per song" basis, so there are no financial losses to cut. You gain nothing, other than arriving home at 9 PM on a day when you planned on being back home at 11 PM.

So why leave?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

What did the people who left early actually gain?

They didn't get refunds, so there was no financial gain.

If you left at 10 PM, did you really accomplish anything with the extra few minutes of free time you gained?

If you take a day off from work to attend the NYS Fair and see a concert at the Grandstand, do you gain anything by leaving after 2 or 3 songs?

You don't get your ticket money back. You don't get your vacation day back. You're not being charged on a "per song" basis, so there are no financial losses to cut. You gain nothing, other than arriving home at 9 PM on a day when you planned on being back home at 11 PM.

So why leave?

You're missing the point and getting hung up on the wrong question.

 

[tipphill]

"Straight up if you walked out of our game last week, when we were losing dont even bother showing up to the dome this sat! "

do'nt worry phillip, with any hope they learned their lesson.i do'nt blame you for that feeling.

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

Maybe so but come to the south and see what the fans down here are like ... with the exception of Vandy you don't see an empty stadium ... even when the teams aren't that great.

The South is a completely different animal. 90k plus to see an inter-squad scrimmage.

Part of the issue with Syracuse fans are they they are largely conditioned, with the exception perhaps of the locals, as pro-sports fans with pro-sports mentalities. No one gives a crap when a fan leaves a pro game early. It's much more about what Otto is saying - pay for a ticket, leave when you choose. Couple in the fact you have mostly Yankee, Red Sox, Giants and Knicks fans who are used to having their teams buy their way to instant gratification, and it looks that much worse. For what it's worth, Southerners tend to be terrible pro-sports fans (inverse of Northeasterners).

I'd love to say comparing the SU football fans with basketball fans is apples and oranges. However, look at when basketball attendance peaked, and when football attendance peaked. I think the trends are actually pretty similar.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

You're missing the point and getting hung up on the wrong question.

Here are your original statements:

I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but the program, the players, and the coaching staff are not entitled to having fans, not when fans have to make a choice and a time commitment and a financial sacrifice to support them. Those fans have to be earned, and the bottom line is that a large number of fans felt that the team didn't earn their support beyond three quarters. It makes no difference whether it's true that they deserved to have them there for the whole game, or that those fans should have been "better" fans. What matters is that those fans were put in a position to make a choice like that, and the evidence was compelling enough to them to go that they didn't stick it out. If I were a casual fan I'd tell the team to look prepared to play right from the start so I don't even think about not sticking around. ​

But see, there must be something to be gained, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving. They actually decided to flush that cash away because they thought the chances of seeing something worthwhile were so low they would cut their financial losses and gain their time back.​

You say that fans make a financial and time commitment to watch the team play [true]. If fans aren't satisfied with the progress of the game, you say that fans have the right to leave [debatable].

But you keep implying that fans who leave early are cutting their financial losses. Other than getting home an hour earlier, where is the gain?

If you want to sell people on the idea that leaving a game early puts spent money back in their pockets, I'd like to know how.

 

[PoppyHart]

Sports is supposed to provide entertainment. The first 3 quarters of the game were not entertaining. Just look at the litany of posts on this site pre-10:15ish on Thursday for memory refreshing.

Implying that we should treat attendance like it's some kind of Broadway production where you can't leave until intermission or conclusion is naive. The DG era has been an absolute disaster from a football perspective, and the fans have made that clear with their ambivalence. It will take several years of exciting, winning football to bring that back imo.

The blame should not be on the fans who don't attend or leave early, but on a less than compelling product. When others leave a movie early, do you blame them or the fact that the movie sucks? This is no different.

 

[sufandu]

"Straight up if you walked out of our game last week, when we were losing dont even bother showing up to the dome this sat! "

I rarely turn a game off before the clocks say zero, but straight up if you expect me to be sleep deprived when I have to be up a 6am, give me something worth watching the whole 60 minutes of game time not just the last 10.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Here are your original statements:

I know this won't be a popular thing to say, but the program, the players, and the coaching staff are not entitled to having fans, not when fans have to make a choice and a time commitment and a financial sacrifice to support them. Those fans have to be earned, and the bottom line is that a large number of fans felt that the team didn't earn their support beyond three quarters. It makes no difference whether it's true that they deserved to have them there for the whole game, or that those fans should have been "better" fans. What matters is that those fans were put in a position to make a choice like that, and the evidence was compelling enough to them to go that they didn't stick it out. If I were a casual fan I'd tell the team to look prepared to play right from the start so I don't even think about not sticking around. ​

But see, there must be something to be gained, otherwise they wouldn't be leaving. They actually decided to flush that cash away because they thought the chances of seeing something worthwhile were so low they would cut their financial losses and gain their time back.​

You say that fans make a financial and time commitment to watch the team play [true]. If fans aren't satisfied with the progress of the game, you say that fans have the right to leave [debatable].

But you keep implying that fans who leave early are cutting their financial losses. Other than getting home an hour earlier, where is the gain?

If you want to sell people on the idea that leaving a game early puts spent money back in their pockets, I'd like to know how.

Ah, I see. I just didn't type well. I just meant cut their losses in the sense that the money is gone, not that they actually get reimbursed. They do get their time though.

You're still hung up on the wrong stuff. It doesn't really matter why those fans decided to leave. It matters that they did. The question shouldn't be why they did, it should be what can the football program do as a whole entity to respond to that fact and make sure it doesn't happen again. Some people are talking about that and providing ideas like improving the game atmosphere, cutting down the technical issues (announcer, music, etc.) that detract from the game, having the team come out and perform better from the start and all that jazz. Talking about how fans should ideally behave or how fans behave elsewhere doesn't get us anywhere.

I'm extremely concerned that you feel it's debatable that fans have the right to leave if they don't like how things are going. They absolutely have that right. They're not buying a ticket to be locked into the stadium.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Sports is supposed to provide entertainment. The first 3 quarters of the game were not entertaining. Just look at the litany of posts on this site pre-10:15ish on Thursday for memory refreshing.

Implying that we should treat attendance like it's some kind of Broadway production where you can't leave until intermission or conclusion is naive. The DG era has been an absolute disaster from a football perspective, and the fans have made that clear with their ambivalence. It will take several years of exciting, winning football to bring that back imo.

The blame should not be on the fans who don't attend or leave early, but on a less than compelling product. When you others leave a movie early, do you blame them or the fact that the movie sucks? This is no different.

Just an outstanding post.

 

[Cuse2010]

I rarely turn a game off before the clocks say zero, but straight up if you expect me to be sleep deprived when I have to be up a 6am, give me something worth watching the whole 60 minutes of game time not just the last 10.

Ever been to a movie that stunk for the first 90 minutes, but the last 30 made it totally worth it? That was Thursdays games. Sports are not movies they are competitions in which one team will try and wear the other down to have its will and win, that may not be how it was drawn up but in essence that is what it is, that is why it is 4 quarters and not 3, because there is more to it than playing good at the start, there are adjustments to be made, there is conditioning. One thing that I always enjoyed when I played, and one of the reasons I love watching is because when things do not go as planned you have the opportunity to overcome the adversity, and stgill succeed, that is what this team has done, that is what HCDM has been trying to instill since he got here, it is too bad for all of those that do not appreciated that aspect of the game, and BTW, I think the Dome was far louder and had far more energy after the deadweight left

 

[SmilinBob]

Sports is supposed to provide entertainment. The first 3 quarters of the game were not entertaining. Just look at the litany of posts on this site pre-10:15ish on Thursday for memory refreshing.

Implying that we should treat attendance like it's some kind of Broadway production where you can't leave until intermission or conclusion is naive. The DG era has been an absolute disaster from a football perspective, and the fans have made that clear with their ambivalence. It will take several years of exciting, winning football to bring that back imo.

The blame should not be on the fans who don't attend or leave early, but on a less than compelling product. When you others leave a movie early, do you blame them or the fact that the movie sucks? This is no different.

If you're just there to watch then yes, by all means leave. If you are a fan then stay and help to the end. It's not a movie, the end is not predetermined and the same each time we watch it.

The DG era is not a absolute disaster and let's cut him a break on the bad hire of Robinson, he screwed up and redeemed himself and not only in football but all sports.

 

[SmilinBob]

I just want to add yes, if you want to leave then you have the right to do so but don't piss and moan the product isn't up to your standards when they are 9-5 over the last 14 games, that's a nice improvement imo.

 

[wfschrec]

Just an outstanding post.

Frankly the train wreck was in motion during the Jake "The Snake" era ... we were already headed towards complete collapse ... the biggest problem with the football product is the dome atmosphere ... that is why a fan will leave early ... IMHO ... they go there expecting a full out broadway show ... instead they are bombarded with bad music at the wrong times ... a bad PA announcer and a litany of advertisements (which i know are necessary but it gives the arena a minor league feel). There are a lot of things ... albiet even minor that can be done to want people to keep their fannies in the seats ...

You fix the atmosphere in the Dome and a lot of things will straighten themselves out. Give me Doris Burke and Devendorf dueces ... I kid ... I kid ...

 

[wfschrec]

The South is a completely different animal. 90k plus to see an inter-squad scrimmage.

Part of the issue with Syracuse fans are they they are largely conditioned, with the exception perhaps of the locals, as pro-sports fans with pro-sports mentalities. No one gives a crap when a fan leaves a pro game early. It's much more about what Otto is saying - pay for a ticket, leave when you choose. Couple in the fact you have mostly Yankee, Red Sox, Giants and Knicks fans who are used to having their teams buy their way to instant gratification, and it looks that much worse. For what it's worth, Southerners tend to be terrible pro-sports fans (inverse of Northeasterners).

I'd love to say comparing the SU football fans with basketball fans is apples and oranges. However, look at when basketball attendance peaked, and when football attendance peaked. I think the trends are actually pretty similar.

Yes it is a different animal because the administrations stick with traditions and put their all into the product ... ours do not. When I watch an SEC game I can hear the band ... I hear "Roll Tide" "War Eagle" and "Ramma Jamma Yellow Hammer" ... not what is pushed through the Carrier Dome speakers. They keep the fans in the game ... win or lose ... the tradition and paegentry of the game is what keeps people there when the going gets tough ... its the opportunity to toilet paper Toomers Corner if you win ... in Syracuse you get to shovel a driveway with a grin if you win. I would agree with the pro sports mentality ... it took me some time to adjust to that ... but I fit in well down here because I was never a pro sports guy ahead of college sports anyway ... except baseball.

 

[sufandu]

Ever been to a movie that stunk for the first 90 minutes, but the last 30 made it totally worth it? That was Thursdays games. Sports are not movies they are competitions in which one team will try and wear the other down to have its will and win, that may not be how it was drawn up but in essence that is what it is, that is why it is 4 quarters and not 3, because there is more to it than playing good at the start, there are adjustments to be made, there is conditioning. One thing that I always enjoyed when I played, and one of the reasons I love watching is because when things do not go as planned you have the opportunity to overcome the adversity, and stgill succeed, that is what this team has done, that is what HCDM has been trying to instill since he got here, it is too bad for all of those that do not appreciated that aspect of the game, and BTW, I think the Dome was far louder and had far more energy after the deadweight left

Actually, I've never been to a movie like that. Anything that I thought stunk for 90 minutes ended up stinking the whole time. When I do go, I plan it for a time that works with my schedule. I had no control over the scheduling of this game (I've never missed the games that are on saturday during Labor Day weekend in the past). I had to be up early the next morning and had to make a decision. My frustration led me to determine that being awake and alert for the long friday I had ahead was more important than the game. Had this game been a friday or saturday game I would've watched if they were down by 40 or up by 40. At the same time, I'm not gonna have some kid tell people what they should do with their time. He's not in their shoes. If we're going to acknowledge that big time college football is indeed a business, and that what is on the field is a marketable product, then customers have the right to do what they want with it.

 

[SmilinBob]

Ask not what SU can do for you but what you can do for SU!

The music was ill timed and annoying but I swear some people want SU to feed them bon bons during the game.

 

[sufandu]

Yes it is a different animal because the administrations stick with traditions and put their all into the product ... ours do not. When I watch an SEC game I can hear the band ... I hear "Roll Tide" "War Eagle" and "Ramma Jamma Yellow Hammer" ... not what is pushed through the Carrier Dome speakers. They keep the fans in the game ... win or lose ... the tradition and paegentry of the game is what keeps people there when the going gets tough ... its the opportunity to toilet paper Toomers Corner if you win ... in Syracuse you get to shovel a driveway with a grin if you win. I would agree with the pro sports mentality ... it took me some time to adjust to that ... but I fit in well down here because I was never a pro sports guy ahead of college sports anyway ... except baseball.

I agree, but I would say it's more than that. I live in Knoxville and, therefore, in dreaded SEC country. The traditions and atmosphere start at birth down here. There is a hatred and disdain for anything Alabama or Florida. They don't want a potential AD here because he is currently the assistant AD at Alabama. People call in to sports talk radio shows to talk about highschool football the we talk about Syracuse football. It's a cultural thing that goes back generations. When nothing worth while existed in the south they clung to football, and that carries over to the present. There is a double edged sword to that however. With the culture, you get "fans" that know nothing about their sport or team but want to pretend they do. The only thing more annoying than a fair weather fan, to me, is a fan that has no idea about what they're talking about. Along with seeing the wrong color orange, I have to deal with that too.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Ah, I see. I just didn't type well. I just meant cut their losses in the sense that the money is gone, not that they actually get reimbursed. They do get their time though.

You're still hung up on the wrong stuff. It doesn't really matter why those fans decided to leave. It matters that they did. The question shouldn't be why they did, it should be what can the football program do as a whole entity to respond to that fact and make sure it doesn't happen again. Some people are talking about that and providing ideas like improving the game atmosphere, cutting down the technical issues (announcer, music, etc.) that detract from the game, having the team come out and perform better from the start and all that jazz. Talking about how fans should ideally behave or how fans behave elsewhere doesn't get us anywhere.

I'm extremely concerned that you feel it's debatable that fans have the right to leave if they don't like how things are going. They absolutely have that right. They're not buying a ticket to be locked into the stadium.

Would you leave your kid's Little League game if his team was losing after 3 innings? Would you walk out on your kid's HS football game?

I'm a life long resident of Central New York, and a Syracuse University alum. I have 90+ kids on the team. I'll be damned if I walk out on my kids in the middle of a game, and there were at least 15,000 people who agreed with me Thursday night.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I just want to add yes, if you want to leave then you have the right to do so but don't **** and moan the product isn't up to your standards when they are 9-5 over the last 14 games, that's a nice improvement imo.

You can't decide that winning is enough for everybody. It's clearly not. It's one part of it, but for some fans winning is just not enough.

I would hope that even with the winning that the product isn't up to your standards yet, because while we've won recently it has happened in some of the ugliest games ever witnessed.

Have some confidence in yourself. You're a catch. You can do better than ugly football.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

You can't decide that winning is enough for everybody. It's clearly not. It's one part of it, but for some fans winning is just not enough.

I would hope that even with the winning that the product isn't up to your standards yet, because while we've won recently it has happened in some of the ugliest games ever witnessed.

Have some confidence in yourself. You're a catch. You can do better than ugly football.

To paraphrase Michael Kay ... they all go in the left hand column.

 

[wfschrec]

You can't decide that winning is enough for everybody. It's clearly not. It's one part of it, but for some fans winning is just not enough.

I would hope that even with the winning that the product isn't up to your standards yet, because while we've won recently it has happened in some of the ugliest games ever witnessed.

Have some confidence in yourself. You're a catch. You can do better than ugly football.

There are hundreds of ugly games across the country ... it is all that comes with the game that make the experience ... and in a sense that bides into the winning is not enough paradigm. Its on the administration to generate interest in that stadium just as much as it is the players. There were times when I was at the game I felt I was listening to a user car salesman instead of a PA guy at a Division I football game.