Post Draft Views on Our Guys.....

[Dave85]

The nba values possessions a lot. Tyler could be a 3 plus assist/to guy...

TE will lull the opposing team to sleep and then make a key pass for an open J. It will be like watching paint dry while basketballs are scoring points.

 

[CusefanATL]

If Tyler came back I don't think we would see the same up uptempo pace that many are expecting this year with Joseph. That just isn't Tyler's game, he is just way to deliberate.

I agree. I dont care what Boeheim says. Tyler was slowing the game down on his own with his natural game.

Not meant as an insult. Thats just the way I saw that.

 

[two3zone]

TE will lull the opposing team to sleep and then make a key pass for an open J. It will be like watching paint dry while basketballs are scoring points.

Problem is that's the exact opposite of what they do in Phoenix.

 

[RF2044]

by my NBA scout friend.

He was surprised Tyler fell as much as he did - he described him as the "best pure point" in the draft & had him tabbed in the 10 to 15 range. He was very impressed with Tyler's smarts & his sneaky athleticism. He described him as a smaller Tony Parker in terms of the similarities in their games.

He had Jerami going about where he did. Loved his athleticism & had concerns about his shot. Said personality wise that Jerami was a great kid. Felt due to his being only 19 that the upside was strong.

He has CJ getting drafted mid-second round & was surprised he went undrafted.

For Knick fans - he liked Early & feels he will be able to play in the NBA, albeit with limited upside.

Thanks for posting this info--interesting data.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Adjusted Tempo rankings for SU from KenPom show that JB has been trending towards a slower pace the last 4 seasons. I'd say it has to do with a lot more than just Ennis' strengths

2014-343
2013- 252
2012- 209
2011-177
2010-55
2009-34
2008-27
2007-28

Nice info. Thanks. Wonder if our opponents slowing down the pace to get a better shot against the zone has affected our offensive pace. If opponents are dictating that we play defense for long periods , it maybe affecting the risks we take in pushing tempo and taking quick shots ourselves.

What I also realized is our fg% has been declining too.

2014- .437
2013- .439
2012- .467
2011- .472
2010- .516

So the question is: does the slowing tempo help create our declining fg% or did a decline of scorers, shooters, speed result in a strategy of slowing the tempo (the opponent also can't score when we have the ball either) and making us dependent on our strong defense more. Regardless, the change from our normal face paced tempo of the past is interesting.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Nice info. Thanks. Wonder if our opponents slowing down the pace to get a better shot against the zone has affected our offensive pace. If opponents are dictating that we play defense for long periods , it maybe affecting the risks we take in pushing tempo and taking quick shots ourselves.
...
So the question is: does the slowing tempo tempo help create our declining fg% or did a decline of scorers, shooters, speed result in a strategy of slowing the tempo (the opponent also can't score when we have the ball either) and depending on our strong defense more. Regardless, the change from our normal face paced tempo of the past is interesting.

I think you are right that the pace is a combination of the opponents slowing the ball down to a greater extent, along with an aversion to the risks of pushing the pace on offense. The fg% numbers are scary the last two seasons and it would be interesting to dig deeper into the shot charts to see what's causing the drop. I could definitely see the impact of a slower tempo and longer possessions on this decline as you are often forcing shots at the end of the clock, but I'm curious as to what else might show.

Some comments from JB indicate his belief that the greater talent will win out no matter what tempo. While I certainly lack the HOF coaching credentials, I'd disagree with that belief and would argue that SU has to break weaker teams (like BC and GT) out of the 50s and make them have to play at a faster tempo than they want.

 

[SUbear]

Nice info. Thanks. Wonder if our opponents slowing down the pace to get a better shot against the zone has affected our offensive pace. If opponents are dictating that we play defense for long periods , it maybe affecting the risks we take in pushing tempo and taking quick shots ourselves.

What I also realized is our fg% has been declining too.

2014- .437
2013- .439
2012- .467
2011- .472
2010- .516

So the question is: does the slowing tempo tempo help create our declining fg% or did a decline of scorers, shooters, speed result in a strategy of slowing the tempo (the opponent also can't score when we have the ball either) and depending on our strong defense more. Regardless, the change from our normal face paced tempo of the past is interesting.

Not terribly surprising, fast pace means you are getting breakaway baskets which are usually higher percentage shots, conversely slower pace means you do not get as many easy baskets and are going against opposing teams set defense so percentages generally go down. Combine that with some poorer shooting in set offenses and you have what we have.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I think you are right that the pace is a combination of the opponents slowing the ball down to a greater extent, along with an aversion to the risks of pushing the pace on offense. The fg% numbers are scary the last two seasons and it would be interesting to dig deeper into the shot charts to see what's causing the drop. I could definitely see the impact of a slower tempo and longer possessions on this decline as you are often forcing shots at the end of the clock, but I'm curious as to what else might show.

Some comments from JB indicate his belief that the greater talent will win out no matter what tempo. While I certainly lack the HOF coaching credentials, I'd disagree with that belief and would argue that SU has to break weaker teams (like BC and GT) out of the 50s and make them have to play at a faster tempo than they want.

Very good thread. Good stuff here from you and Cheriehoop. I think only so much blame can be placed on opponents holding the ball. Some teams do some teams don't. Some try to push it before the zone sets up. They use the same strategies vs Baylor's 2-3 but Baylor had better AdjO and AdjT (albeit not that much better here). I think it is a combination of all the factors being mentioned as well as structure of the offense. Coach Orange and others have diagnosed other potential ways to score easier. Of course, when you're not pushing the tempo and not executing whatever play is drawn up then things become exponentially more difficult. I can't seem to grasp drawing up plays to find jump shots for a team who couldn't shoot. This season will be interesting. If they aren't going to push it much (I don't expect this) then the offense must drastically change. Also, I don't remember an SU team missing so many layups. Not just Ennis. Everybody. There are theories about if this could've been fatigue related but, regardless, it cost us a few games.

 

[CU44SE]

I think you are right that the pace is a combination of the opponents slowing the ball down to a greater extent, along with an aversion to the risks of pushing the pace on offense. The fg% numbers are scary the last two seasons and it would be interesting to dig deeper into the shot charts to see what's causing the drop. I could definitely see the impact of a slower tempo and longer possessions on this decline as you are often forcing shots at the end of the clock, but I'm curious as to what else might show.

Some comments from JB indicate his belief that the greater talent will win out no matter what tempo. While I certainly lack the HOF coaching credentials, I'd disagree with that belief and would argue that SU has to break weaker teams (like BC and GT) out of the 50s and make them have to play at a faster tempo than they want.

Your last sentence really says it all, with more possessions the better team will win. And that's why college basketball refuses to decrease the shot clock. They want inferior teams to stick around and have a shot at winning.

 

[TinyManInside]

It's not really a secret that last year Boeheim was actually a little frustrated with Tyler's inability to push the tempo. Supposedly JB wanted the team to play a little faster than it did.

Tyler going 18th seems about right. I thought Grant would go near the end of the first round because he does have a lot of athletic upside. Now, as the 39th pick, his NBA career is basically over before it began.

 

[SUFan44]

It's not really a secret that last year Boeheim was actually a little frustrated with Tyler's inability to push the tempo. Supposedly JB wanted the team to play a little faster than it did.

Tyler going 18th seems about right. I thought Grant would go near the end of the first round because he does have a lot of athletic upside. Now, as the 39th pick, his NBA career is basically over before it began.

According to some on this board, we have to wait 2-3 years to make this assessment. I happen to agree with you.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Your last sentence really says it all, with more possessions the better team will win. And that's why college basketball refuses to decrease the shot clock. They want inferior teams to stick around and have a shot at winning.

? Games in the 50s-60s?

 

[Dave85]

According to some on this board, we have to wait 2-3 years to make this assessment. I happen to agree with you.

I argued Grant staying one more year he would have more playing time staying to develop his jump shot than in the NBA. But someone argued he can do just as well in the D-league. The $400,000 salary for 2 or 3 years sounds really good. But the money never goes far enough. He would probably would have been better served staying another year on the hope of going first round in 2015. First rounders get higher starting salaries and have a better chance at a longer career in the NBA. I wish Grant the best of luck but I think it was a 50/50 mistake to leave early. We will see how the coin rolls.

 

[TinyManInside]

According to some on this board, we have to wait 2-3 years to make this assessment. I happen to agree with you.

If you look historically at the careers of the 39th pick in the draft, it paints a very, very bleak picture. The career average of 39th picks who actually PLAY in the league is something like 3.2 ppg, and that doesn't include the guys who never suit up for a single game. Of course, every player is different, but the bottom line is that teams rarely ever invest the time to develop guys picked that low. I hope Grant develops into an NBA player, but the road ahead as a 39th pick is a hell of a lot harder than it would have been if he was picked at the end of the 1st round.

Reading through the scouting reports on Grant prior to the draft, it is very apparent that his shooting really hurt him. One report I read said that his mid-range shot percentage was near the bottom of all the players that the team had brought in. This is an area that could possibly have been developed by another year in college, but it is doubtful that an NBA will sit around waiting for a 39th pick to develop it.

Again, I really liked Grant's game and you saw amazing potential at time, but the very raw nature of his skillset apparently overshadowed his upside athleticism in the scouts eyes. I'm pulling for him to be an outlier and make in the league, but it would have been nice to see him in Orange next season.

 

[jncuse]

I believe the Suns were one of the fastest teams in the league last year, so we will find out real quick if he is capable of playing a faster style.

Word from Toronto is that while Phoenix liked Ennis, Phoenix drafted him at #18 to get assets from the Raptors who really wanted him at #20. In the end Phoenix wanted too much, so Toronto passed.

 

[jncuse]

Nice info. Thanks. Wonder if our opponents slowing down the pace to get a better shot against the zone has affected our offensive pace. If opponents are dictating that we play defense for long periods , it maybe affecting the risks we take in pushing tempo and taking quick shots ourselves.

What I also realized is our fg% has been declining too.

2014- .437
2013- .439
2012- .467
2011- .472
2010- .516

So the question is: does the slowing tempo tempo help create our declining fg% or did a decline of scorers, shooters, speed result in a strategy of slowing the tempo (the opponent also can't score when we have the ball either) and depending on our strong defense more. Regardless, the change from our normal face paced tempo of the past is interesting.

Reducing your pace will typically reduce your offensive efficiency but it will also help your defensive efficiency. That's the relationship in "general", but of course there are always exceptions.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If you look historically at the careers of the 39th pick in the draft, it paints a very, very bleak picture. The career average of 39th picks who actually PLAY in the league is something like 3.2 ppg, and that doesn't include the guys who never suit up for a single game. Of course, every player is different, but the bottom line is that teams rarely ever invest the time to develop guys picked that low. I hope Grant develops into an NBA player, but the road ahead as a 39th pick is a hell of a lot harder than it would have been if he was picked at the end of the 1st round.

Reading through the scouting reports on Grant prior to the draft, it is very apparent that his shooting really hurt him. One report I read said that his mid-range shot percentage was near the bottom of all the players that the team had brought in. This is an area that could possibly have been developed by another year in college, but it is doubtful that an NBA will sit around waiting for a 39th pick to develop it.

Again, I really liked Grant's game and you saw amazing potential at time, but the very raw nature of his skillset apparently overshadowed his upside athleticism in the scouts eyes. I'm pulling for him to be an outlier and make in the league, but it would have been nice to see him in Orange next season.

Well... I do think it matters that its the 76ers that drafted there. By design they gave minutes to a bunch of fringe NBA talent. I would argue that there isn't a better team to have been picked by in the 2nd round.

 

[Dave85]

Well... I do think it matters that its the 76ers that drafted there. By design they gave minutes to a bunch of fringe NBA talent. I would argue that there isn't a better team to have been picked by in the 2nd round.

So is it going to be another year of the 76ers aiming for last place?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So is it going to be another year of the 76ers aiming for last place?

Yup, but in 2-3 years, juggernaut.

 

[Dave85]

Yup, but in 2-3 years, juggernaut.

Gee, the same logic of aim low score high in the draft is not going to go away. The Sixers have a culture of failure. I'm just not sure that's how your team will ever become a champion caliber team without striving for greatness.

 

[two3zone]

Gee, the same logic of aim low score high in the draft is not going to go away. The Sixers have a culture of failure. I'm just not sure that's how your team will ever become a champion caliber team without striving for greatness.

I'm willing to bet the tank idea and being bad for a handful of years to attempt to achieve greatness is better than competing for an 8 seed every year. I think what they're doing in Philly is exciting and smart.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Gee, the same logic of aim low score high in the draft is not going to go away. The Sixers have a culture of failure. I'm just not sure that's how your team will ever become a champion caliber team without striving for greatness.

They are striving for greatness. They took shots at Noel, Embiid and Saric in the hopes that they found a franchise player. Who knows if it will work out or not, but it is an interesting strategy and certainly not aiming low by any means.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Gee, the same logic of aim low score high in the draft is not going to go away. The Sixers have a culture of failure. I'm just not sure that's how your team will ever become a champion caliber team without striving for greatness.

I don't think they have a culture of failure. I think they have a culture attempting to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.

 

[Dave85]

I don't think they have a culture of failure. I think they have a culture attempting to take a step back in order to take two steps forward.

So do you think they will try to win next season or not?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

So do you think they will try to win next season or not?

I think they will focus more on player development than their record.