Program ain't what it used to be

[Cusefan0307]

Some moronic posts in this thread.

First, endowment doesn’t go to sports.

Second, if UVA is such a basketball power why have they only been good recently?

Syracuse has a ton more history than UVA.

And if we paid to keep Babers we will pay for a basketball coach.

 

[syrBossHogg]

If Bennett loses with this team I don’t know when they will ever make the FF.

I agree, right now Virginia is rated higher on KenPom in AdjEM than all of the past 10 National championship teams + that 2015 Kentucky team. They're really good this year and have Hunter healthy

 

[orangenirvana]

Some fans care way too much about the regular season.

 

[TheCusian]

Can we skip to the part where we get to the final four and everyone is excited except for the people who are never happy?

I think Virginia is the best team we’ve played and are probably 1 or 2 nationally. We lost these types of games in the Big East. We will lose them in the ACC going forward.

We’ll win some too - but *everyones* record vs top 5 teams is a low %.

 

[tbonezone]

i believe the perception of syracuse basketball has shifted away from being a national and divisional basketball powerhouse to being a mediocre team that plays the "gimmick defense."

 

[CusefanATL]

You’re not new.
What kind of post would you prefer? Aw, heck, fellas, we’ll get’em next time! We’re still great!

i dont need that post either. we went to the sweet 16 last year. we'll go to the elite 8 this year (save this). sky isnt falling.

i distinctly remember posts during our amazing 5 year regular season stretch with people complaining about regular season success but comparative lack of postseason success and posters willing to trade that regular season for post season. Lets wait and see what happens in the next 4 weeks.

 

[AZOrange]

No doubt. Not to mention considerably better academic standing, and in town that is stunning in Charlottesville, along with its campus. Same conference, great facilities and the flagship institution in their state.

Yeah but that’s not how you pay a coach either...what does UVA pay their football coach? What do we? Cuse is also going to have a far better endorsement arrangement. That’s how this works.

 

[RF2044]

i believe the perception of syracuse basketball has shifted away from being a national and divisional basketball powerhouse to being a mediocre team that plays the "gimmick defense."

Perception is reality.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

i dont need that post either. we went to the sweet 16 last year. we'll go to the elite 8 this year (save this). sky isnt falling.

i distinctly remember posts during our amazing 5 year regular season stretch with people complaining about regular season success but comparative lack of postseason success and posters willing to trade that regular season for post season. Lets wait and see what happens in the next 4 weeks.

So, you don't want any negative posts, and you don't "need" the ultra-positive posts. So, maybe you could publish some guidelines for the rest of us, so that we might maintain an orderly 'centrist' perspective.

Seriously, though, do you really not see our program as trending downward? Do you believe occasional surprise runs in the tournament is a recommendable and sustainable path?

 

[SUFan44]

Some fans care way too much about the regular season.

Despite what you suggest, the regular season matters. It puts you in a position to succeed in the postseason generally speaking.

I'd much rather be a 3-4 seed than a 8-9-10-11 seed every year. There's no doubt in my mind.

 

[SUFan44]

i dont need that post either. we went to the sweet 16 last year. we'll go to the elite 8 this year (save this). sky isnt falling.

i distinctly remember posts during our amazing 5 year regular season stretch with people complaining about regular season success but comparative lack of postseason success and posters willing to trade that regular season for post season. Lets wait and see what happens in the next 4 weeks.

This is extremely short sighted.

I don't think there were many people who know much complaining about the 2010 or 2012 teams because they didn't make the Final Four. There were extenuating circumstances each year.

We went to the Sweet 16 in 2009, losing to Blake Griffin. 2010, lose Onuaku and then go out to Butler in a game we would have won fully healthy. 2011, lose to Marquette in a bad matchup game against a team who had seen us multiple times and were better than their seed. And 2012, made Elite 8 and could have gone further if not for Fab Melo/terrible referees that allowed Aaron Craft to hack all game long.

This stretch is completely different and is much more worrisome.

 

[CusefanATL]

So, you don't want any negative posts, and you don't "need" the ultra-positive posts. So, maybe you could publish some guidelines for the rest of us, so that we might maintain an orderly 'centrist' perspective.

Seriously, though, do you really not see our program as trending downward? Do you believe occasional surprise runs in the tournament is a recommendable and sustainable path?

you are reading about 10000000x too far into my post.

we lost to the #2 team in the country who hit 18/24 3's before the walkon airballed the 25th attempt. I dont care if we lost by 1 or 26, that specific loss does not need a new thread which happens to be the same thread we get after every loss.

and after every win, the crowd comes out wondering why we arent ranked.

i think we are set up well for the tournament. I'll kick back and watch from here on out.

 

[CusefanATL]

This is extremely short sighted.

I don't think there were many people who know much complaining about the 2010 or 2012 teams because they didn't make the Final Four. There were extenuating circumstances each year.

We went to the Sweet 16 in 2009, losing to Blake Griffin. 2010, lose Onuaku and then go out to Butler in a game we would have won fully healthy. 2011, lose to Marquette in a bad matchup game against a team who had seen us multiple times and were better than their seed. And 2012, made Elite 8 and could have gone further if not for Fab Melo/terrible referees that allowed Aaron Craft to hack all game long.

This stretch is completely different and is much more worrisome.

bro - i get the sense you think that was my opinion. it wasnt.

it was actually talked about on this board. probably around 2014.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

you are reading about 10000000x too far into my post.

we lost to the #2 team in the country who hit 18/24 3's before the walkon airballed the 25th attempt. I dont care if we lost by 1 or 26, that specific loss does not need a new thread which happens to be the same thread we get after every loss.

and after every win, the crowd comes out wondering why we arent ranked.

i think we are set up well for the tournament. I'll kick back and watch from here on out.

I read what you wrote, and what you wrote then and now continue to write suggests that only your perspective is the valid perspective. You also continue to assert that what happens in the tournament is what determines how you will have felt retrospectively, which seems a bit bizarre. We're not supposed to react to what's happening right now, because something good might happen in a couple of weeks? And, again, i ask—how does that attitude, if projected to the staff—affect us toward sustaining the reputation you think we have over our history?

 

[moqui]

i believe the perception of syracuse basketball has shifted away from being a national and divisional basketball powerhouse to being a mediocre team that plays the "gimmick defense."

that's your perception

it's not the perception i have found from outside observers lately

 

[tbonezone]

that's your perception

yes that's my perception. i also know several former die hard fans who no longer even watch the games.
that's been my experience more and more.

 

[CusefanATL]

I read what you wrote, and what you wrote then and now continue to write suggests that only your perspective is the valid perspective. You also continue to assert that what happens in the tournament is what determines how you will have felt retrospectively, which seems a bit bizarre. We're not supposed to react to what's happening right now, because something good might happen in a couple of weeks? And, again, i ask—how does that attitude, if projected to the staff—affect us toward sustaining the reputation you think we have over our history?

we lost a game to the #2 team in the country who hit 18 3's and was possibly the hottest shooting team in a game this decade.

we dont need to repeat the same gosh darn "program aint what it used to me" thread that we have read 50-75 different threads this basketball season.

THIS game didnt change anything. we are were we are. are we a perennial top 5 team like we were for 5 years? no. but that was also an outlier for our program.

and what in the world does this mean? projected to the staff? What are you talking about?

"And, again, i ask—how does that attitude, if projected to the staff"

 

[Cusefan0307]

we lost a game to the #2 team in the country who hit 18 3's and was possibly the hottest shooting team in a game this decade.

we dont need to repeat the same gosh darn "program aint what it used to me" thread that we have read 50-75 different threads this basketball season.

THIS game didnt change anything. we are were we are. are we a perennial top 5 team like we were for 5 years? no. but that was also an outlier for our program.

and what in the world does this mean? projected to the staff? What are you talking about?

"And, again, i ask—how does that attitude, if projected to the staff"

We have been to the tournament 33 times under Boeheim and have been a 6 seed or higher 29 times. That means we have been top 25 in the country most years under Boeheim until the last 5 years.

It's really the last 5 years that are more of an outlier and in a bad way. Boeheim had lost 13 games 4 times his entire career until 2014 and now we have lost at least 13 games 4 years in a row.

Also last year was the first year we ever lost double digit conference games and was only the 3rd time we were under .500 in conference play.

 

[moqui]

i just want to put this out there one last time then i'm done with the topic & all who continue to bring it up

from 2009 to 2014 syracuse was the 3rd winningest program in division 1
protected seed (top 4 or better) all 6 years
2x a #1 seed
iirc, #1 overall seed in 2010
0 first round losses
4 times to sweet 16, twice to elite 8, once to final four

then the ncaa exposed serious violations and hammered the program with sanctions
the next 5 seasons have been mediocre, especially compared to the years immediately preceding it.
so what explains such a drastic falling off?

any intellectually honest person has to credit that big exogenous variable with at least some influence on the subsequent outcomes; but it is an open question how much the sanctions mattered. some of us thinks they explain nearly everything, others think some but not all. and there are a few who think "little to no impact." i don't care about the latter, they are un-serious afaiac

so the question of "how much" we'll find the answer to soon. the 2019 class is the first to have been minimally impacted by the sanctions. I think it is a very strong class even though it fell a little short of an absolute home run; and i'm not playing revisionist history, i've believed as much for months

i actually think this year has been something of a bounce back year; i grade on a curve because of the ill timed and serious injuries to 2/3 of the point guard contingent.

but the sanctions have mostly run their course and if the team is disappointing again next year, i'll definitely re-examine my position.

 

[Cuseball]

i just want to put this out there one last time then i'm done with the topic & all who continue to bring it up

from 2009 to 2014 syracuse was the 3rd winningest program in division 1
protected seed (top 4 or better) all 6 years
2x a #1 seed
iirc, #1 overall seed in 2010
0 first round losses
4 times to sweet 16, twice to elite 8, once to final four

then the ncaa exposed serious violations and hammered the program with sanctions
the next 5 seasons have been mediocre, especially compared to the years immediately preceding it.
so what explains such a drastic falling off?

any intellectually honest person has to credit that big exogenous variable with at least some influence on the subsequent outcomes; but it is an open question how much the sanctions mattered. some of us thinks the explain nearly everything, others think some but not all. and there are a few who think "little to no impact." i don't care about the latter, they are un-serious afaiac

so the question of "how much" we'll find the answer to soon. the 2019 class is the first to have been minimally impacted by the sanctions. I think it is a very strong class even though it fell a little short of an absolute home run; and i'm not playing revisionist history, i've believed as much for months

i actually think this year has been something of a bounce back year; i grade on a curve because of the ill timed and serious injuries to 2/3 of the point guard contingent.

but the sanctions have mostly run their course and if the team is disappointing again next year, i'll definitely re-examine my position.

Please don’t make this the last time posting this. We have so many posters who conveniently forget the sequence of events. The timing of the fantastic run and then drop off directly correlates to sanctions. I wonder how that could be. Sanctions have major impacts.

Cuse!

 

[Zelda Zonk]

we lost a game to the #2 team in the country who hit 18 3's and was possibly the hottest shooting team in a game this decade.

we dont need to repeat the same gosh darn "program aint what it used to me" thread that we have read 50-75 different threads this basketball season.

THIS game didnt change anything. we are were we are. are we a perennial top 5 team like we were for 5 years? no. but that was also an outlier for our program.

and what in the world does this mean? projected to the staff? What are you talking about?

"And, again, i ask—how does that attitude, if projected to the staff"

I don't know why you're not able to see and respect a perspective you don't personally feel.
• It's not up to you to decide who feels what, and when or if someone should start a discussion about it.
• We also don't need to repeat the same gosh darn "everything is still roses and you're a bad fan for not clinging to the hem of JB's shorty bathrobe" posts, that we have read in every different thread this and every other basketball season.
• People react to individual games. Some people, like you apparently, try not to react to a loss, and try to rationalize it as not being important because the only thing that matters is a Sweet 16.
• "This game didn't change anything" — again, it was 'symbolic' to a number of people. Not sure how it didn't change anything. It did change our record. And it did show the tv audience that we are no longer in Virginia's class. Try looking at it from outside of the experience of a Cuse homer or alum. We need great players to be great. We don't create a great impression by losing a marquee game by a great number of points. Does that compute? It's not about you.
• Not sure what you're saying. Which is the outlier? Where we are now? Is five years an "outlier?" How long do you think a historic reputation lasts in the minds of a 16 or 17-year old? How long do you think it lasts in a casual basketball fan that isn't from the 315? We won our lone national championship just one year after Maryland. How relevant is Maryland?
• "Projected to the staff" — trying to understand how you want your ethos to serve as that of the board. If you think we should be satisfied and not have grumbles, then i wonder what you think the staff should be thinking. "Hey, yeah, we're going to finish in the middle of the ACC yet again, but heck, if we scrape into the field, we can still do some damage. So, no changes necessary!" Right?
• Lastly — i'm kinda sick of seeing the "they made 18 3s! You can't expect to win when they are hitting everything!" comments. It's not golf. There's supposed to be an opposition there. We had an opportunity to change that outcome, either by execution or strategy or both, but we are not constructed or instructed to have a Plan B. That's a problem.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

i just want to put this out there one last time then i'm done with the topic & all who continue to bring it up

from 2009 to 2014 syracuse was the 3rd winningest program in division 1
protected seed (top 4 or better) all 6 years
2x a #1 seed
iirc, #1 overall seed in 2010
0 first round losses
4 times to sweet 16, twice to elite 8, once to final four

then the ncaa exposed serious violations and hammered the program with sanctions
the next 5 seasons have been mediocre, especially compared to the years immediately preceding it.
so what explains such a drastic falling off?

any intellectually honest person has to credit that big exogenous variable with at least some influence on the subsequent outcomes; but it is an open question how much the sanctions mattered. some of us thinks they explain nearly everything, others think some but not all. and there are a few who think "little to no impact." i don't care about the latter, they are un-serious afaiac

so the question of "how much" we'll find the answer to soon. the 2019 class is the first to have been minimally impacted by the sanctions. I think it is a very strong class even though it fell a little short of an absolute home run; and i'm not playing revisionist history, i've believed as much for months

i actually think this year has been something of a bounce back year; i grade on a curve because of the ill timed and serious injuries to 2/3 of the point guard contingent.

but the sanctions have mostly run their course and if the team is disappointing again next year, i'll definitely re-examine my position.

That's a good post, but you're hanging it all on one set of factors, when there are multiple matters to consider.
• Did sanctions create our style of play, which was constantly hammered by commentators as being 'the slowest in the league?'
• We also were newbies to a new conference, the best league in the country, and we did/do not have the same status.
• JB actually is older. I don't know very many people who are as good at anything at 70+ as they were earlier. I don't know anyone who actually puts in more effort at 70+ than earlier.
• We were told JB was going to retire. That has to affect recruiting. Hopkins may have been a worthy successor, but he was an unknown. And if you're competing for top 20 kids, the impending takeover by an assistant without credentials is not a plus in a critical column.
• Maybe, just maybe, the world adapted to the zone and no longer feared it. Shooters now are seeing Harden and Curry launching from five feet past the line. Like how every receiver is Beckham-style one-handing catches for no reason, and tailbacks and tight ends are hurdling tacklers, it's a copycat sporting world. The zone's success in our past is not a permanent thing.
• I'm too tired/lazy to look it up, but what happened to Louisville following their scandal? Did they get sanctions? The same kind as were imposed on us? They lost a HoF coach, and still managed to be ranked. Are their issues 'too new,' and we expect them to suffer over the next few years?

 

[CusefanATL]

We have been to the tournament 33 times under Boeheim and have been a 6 seed or higher 29 times. That means we have been top 25 in the country most years under Boeheim until the last 5 years.

It's really the last 5 years that are more of an outlier and in a bad way. Boeheim had lost 13 games 4 times his entire career until 2014 and now we have lost at least 13 games 4 years in a row.

Also last year was the first year we ever lost double digit conference games and was only the 3rd time we were under .500 in conference play.

You say that like I dont know that. I dont believe I ever said we are in perfect shape anymore.

I just think this is the ebbs and flows of the business especially after shockingly unfair sanctions. <- thats my opinion.

but what ive been saying is we dont need to see this exact thread after losses to top 5 teams like they are out of the ordinary. we were beating uva at the half for christ sakes. THIS GAME (i have CAPPED THIS about 3x in this thread but maybe caps/bold/italic/underline will get the point across) changed NOTHING in regards to our program.

do you get it now?

 

[CusefanATL]

• Did sanctions create our style of play, which was constantly hammered by commentators as being 'the slowest in the league?'

i am honestly not trying to work you up... but i dont believe ive ever heard that line from a commentator?

we dont get the ball inside is BY FAR the most popular (and correct) line.

 

[moqui]

a lot of good points, let me respond to these two

That's a good post, but you're hanging it all on one set of factors, when there are multiple matters to consider.
• Did sanctions create our style of play, which was constantly hammered by commentators as being 'the slowest in the league?'

if they are saying that, they are misinformed. we are 7th in tempo in acc play. uva and vpi are the slowest

• I'm too tired/lazy to look it up, but what happened to Louisville following their scandal? Did they get sanctions? The same kind as were imposed on us? They lost a HoF coach, and still managed to be ranked. Are their issues 'too new,' and we expect them to suffer over the next few years?

no, they did not. they were forced to vacate wins, including a national championship, but they have not yeat received any structural penalties to impact recruiting. that shoe has yet to drop