Program tiers

[TexanMark]

I think Louisville, Indiana, UConn, Michigan State should be in tier 1.5.

You are forgetting one

 

[Alsacs]

"All time" means you take the recency bias out of the equation. Their Championships weigh very heavily in these rankings. That's all. No more words needed.

Arkansas made 3 Final Fours in 6 years(1990,1994,1995) and won a title. So yeah I agree they deserve their spot.

Arkansas’ last Sweet Sixteen was 1996. They aren’t high and mighty. Saying Vandy is solid isn’t off base. They’ve consistently been mid to upper half SEC. I get that the SEC isn’t the ACC, but I’m not exactly calling them elite.

UCLA has lost an incredible amount of luster over the decades. Their program is good, no doubt, but they aren’t close to UK, UNC, Duke, or Kansas. Yes, I know they were unstoppable 50 years ago, but there is a strong recency bias In strengths of programs. The won the title in ‘95. We won it in ‘03. They lost it in ‘06(?), we lost it in ‘96. They have a long, rich history. We’ve made FF’s for 5 straight decades and are ~#5 in all time wins. They have occasional great years, we had #1 rankings in ‘09-10 and (I believe) ‘11-12. They’ve made ~2 FF’s in the 00’s (not counting the NCG already referenced). We made 2 (not counting the NCG already referenced).

I fail to see how they’re on a different level than us, and I fail to see how a school that can’t consistently win the Pac is on the same level as Duke, UNC, and Kansas.

**EDIT: I forgot to mention UC. The last time they made a FF was 1992. The time before that was 1963. Calling them anything higher than “good” is wishful thinking.

UCLA may only have the NC from 1995 but they went to 3 straight Final Fours in 2006, 2007, 2008 that is no small feat. They are last school to do that. They deserve credit for that. Those Florida teams with Horford/Noah/Brewer which were special denied them a title. UCLA isn’t what they were but they have been to
Enough Final Fours with just that 95 title to maintain its Spot.

 

[dasher]

I don’t know about you, but a program with 4 NCs poses a better argument to me than a team who’s got ‘the best record in the history of the Big East’

And btw - UConn & Georgetown have 7 BE tourney titles. Syracuse has 5.

Regular season BE titles - UConn - 10, Syracuse, 10.

And really? Knocking who the opponent was in an NC game as a way to diminish the accomplishment? C’mon, That’s a lame argument.

Good for you to carry the Huskies banner. Here is the thing. Over the course of a long term, we have beat Uconn pretty one sided head to head. That means something. Having the best record in the same league, and we were in the same league for 30 years, means something. They don't mean much to you. Fine. the first tie breaker in any league I have ever played in was head to head. And once again, the regular season record isn't all that close. I'm not knocking UConn, but I think it is short sighted to say we aren't on the same tier with them. They wouldn't even think that if they were honest. Oh, and any Syracuse team that ever made a final four would have beat that Ga Tech team. Including 1975. And as someone above wrote, we are 5th all time in wins. LOL and since both Kansas and North Carolina count their Helms titles... Just kidding.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good for you to carry the Huskies banner. Here is the thing. Over the course of a long term, we have beat Uconn pretty one sided head to head. That means something. Having the best record in the same league, and we were in the same league for 30 years, means something. They don't mean much to you. Fine. the first tie breaker in any league I have ever played in was head to head. And once again, the regular season record isn't all that close. I'm not knocking UConn, but I think it is short sighted to say we aren't on the same tier with them. They wouldn't even think that if they were honest. Oh, and any Syracuse team that ever made a final four would have beat that Ga Tech team. Including 1975. And as someone above wrote, we are 5th all time in wins. LOL and since both Kansas and North Carolina count their Helms titles... Just kidding.

They really got some good draws. Meh Butler, Georgia Tech, and UK teams. The Duke win was great, but those are 3 runs they got a ton of breaks.

 

[Alsacs]

They really got some good draws. Meh Butler, Georgia Tech, and UK teams. The Duke win was great, but those are 3 runs they got a ton of breaks.

Their 99 team was one of the best in Big East history and they beat that stacked Duke team.
The 04 win over Duke was legit as well but they got a cakewalk in the Final against Georgia Tech.
Their 11 title they didn’t beat a single 1 seed and only beat one 2 seed and that final was an embarrassing.
The 14 title they again they had a lot of busted brackets.
To UConn’s credit when they get to the final four they have finished the business.
Syracuse gets to the Final Fours but hasn’t been able to finish it off.
That is just luck in a one and done tournament.

 

[FloridaFan]

Overall wins> a couple titles in all time program tiers

 

[Sudano]

No. All time means you consider all time. It doesn’t mean you throw recency out of the window and blindly weight everything equally. It’s a program ranking, not a history ranking.

I don't think this makes sense. Program Ranking means weighting recent results more?
I think you're making thing up on your own.

 

[TexanMark]

I don't think this makes sense. Program Ranking means weighting recent results more?
I think you're making thing up on your own.

Program ranking is more than recent success

Brand, NCAA appearances, Sweet 16, F4, Nattie's, all time wins, great players, home attendance, fan travel support, Coaching Alumni, TV viewership

 

[Sudano]

Program ranking is more than recent success

Brand, NCAA appearances, Sweet 16, F4, Nattie's, all time wins, great players, home attendance, fan travel support, Coaching Alumni, TV viewership

I guess anyone can define program tiers anyway they want. But I thought they defined it including history so that doesn't apply weight to anything more than others.

 

[pfister1]

Tell me how Syracuse is in the same tier as UConn and Indiana. Final Fours & winning seasons should absolutely be considered when ranking but even so, championships are the ultimate goal so in my opinion they should carry much more weight.

If the situation were reversed and Syracuse had UConn or IU’s pedigree and UConn/IU had SU’s, everybody would be screaming about how SU is 100% top tier and those other schools were far behind.

I’m not saying that just because a school has 1 or even 2 more NCs Than SU, that they should be in a higher tier than SU, but when you’re talking about 3 or 4 more, that‘s a big deal.

All Time Head to Head
SU 56 - UConn 38
SU 5 - Indiana 1 (granted it was the most impt. one)

In a comparison of all time history I would think its pretty rare for a team in a lower tier to dominate a team that is supposedly clearly in a higher tier.

 

[Sherman20]

I don’t know about you, but a program with 4 NCs poses a better argument to me than a team who’s got ‘the best record in the history of the Big East’

And btw - UConn & Georgetown have 7 BE tourney titles. Syracuse has 5.

Regular season BE titles - UConn - 10, Syracuse, 10.

And really? Knocking who the opponent was in an NC game as a way to diminish the accomplishment? C’mon, That’s a lame argument.

ok but a quarter century of dominance carries a lot of weight

Dominance? The tourney is a crapshoot. UConn essentially won two more (albeit important) games than us. If we win those championship games in 1987 and 1996, we have three titles and 6 Final Fours (over 5 decades) to their 4 titles and 5 FFs. And that’s not even counting AO’s injury and Fab being ruled ineligible.

 

[Sherman20]

Tier 2 with far too many teams. Florida, Virginia, Arkansas, Cincy, Ohio state and Michigan don’t belong

I’d def leave Michigan and Ohio State in Tier 2. Michigan has like 7 or 8 Final Fours and a title. Florida and Virginia are very debatable as tier 2 (should be tier 3), but Florida at least has more of an argument for inclusion. No to Virginia.

 

[kcsu]

Other than a nit pick here or there its a solid list. SU is top 2nd tier. We are not top tier in
NC's but we are top tier in
Fan attendance, and consecutive winning seasons.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Other than a nit pick here or there its a solid list. SU is top 2nd tier. We are not top tier in
NC's but we are top tier in
Fan attendance, and consecutive winning seasons.

Man, this was going well until you awarded us the Miss Congeniality trophy.

 

[Fat tire 13]

There are some interesting comparisons from other sports

Like baseball
-Atlanta Braves had an epic run in the 1990s-2000s, but only won a single WS
-Florida Marlins caught fire twice and won WS in 1997 and 2003

It all depends on how much weight you put in regular season vs. post season. Then you make the determination.

My own opinion is tier 1 is accurate (the UCLA final fours and title games in the 2000s matter), and the debate is which tier 2 teams need to drop a level.

 

[OrangeDW]

I don’t know about you, but a program with 4 NCs poses a better argument to me than a team who’s got ‘the best record in the history of the Big East’

And btw - UConn & Georgetown have 7 BE tourney titles. Syracuse has 5.

Regular season BE titles - UConn - 10, Syracuse, 10.

And really? Knocking who the opponent was in an NC game as a way to diminish the accomplishment? C’mon, That’s a lame argument.

Eh, there’s certainly an element of luck involved in winning a one and done tournament. Playing Georgia Tech and Butler in title games is kindve lucky.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Lucky is definitely not in a million years the word I would use to describe to getting to play Providence instead of Georgetown. Or Drexel, Georgia and Mississippi State instead of Memphis, Purdue, it Uconn respectively. Or playing all your second weekend games two hours from campus. Or playing a team coached by Tom Crean.

It’s a silly argument. You play who’s in front of you and you get no say in it.

 

[pfister1]

Lucky is definitely not in a million years the word I would use to describe to getting to play Providence instead of Georgetown. Or Drexel, Georgia and Mississippi State instead of Memphis, Purdue, it Uconn respectively. Or playing all your second weekend games two hours from campus. Or playing a team coached by Tom Crean.

It’s a silly argument. You play who’s in front of you and you get no say in it.

In 2010 Butler got a lucky draw. They were put in the bracket with an injured Cuse as the #1 in their bracket. Had we been at full strength and not lost AO in the BE Tournament, I have no doubt Butler does not get to the Championship game. Not getting to the 2010 championship game may have also impacted their ability to make it all the way back in 2011.

Luck definitely factors into a one and done tournament in a HUGE way. I don't think that necessarily is an argument to discount championships, but I do think its a pretty strong argument to discount the idea that winning a National Championship is the supreme test of team or program strength. The best team in the nation doesn't win the championship the majority of the time.

 

[UnknownOrange]

Uconn is trash I am sorry I will not be checking replies.

lol what is syracuse then

 

[HOFCeluck]

In 2010 Butler got a lucky draw. They were put in the bracket with an injured Cuse as the #1 in their bracket. Had we been at full strength and not lost AO in the BE Tournament, I have no doubt Butler does not get to the Championship game. Not getting to the 2010 championship game may have also impacted their ability to make it all the way back in 2011.

Luck definitely factors into a one and done tournament in a HUGE way. I don't think that necessarily is an argument to discount championships, but I do think its a pretty strong argument to discount the idea that winning a National Championship is the supreme test of team or program strength. The best team in the nation doesn't win the championship the majority of the time.

I mean no, but it’s...pretty hard to win one.

Look I’m not trying to argue that Uconn is a blue blood or something but I think going though each of their tourney runs and pointing out how lucky they are Because they got to play GT and Butler ispetty af. And trust me I know a thing or two about that.

 

[HOFCeluck]

lol what is syracuse then

Not...trash?

 

[UnknownOrange]

Dominance? The tourney is a crapshoot. UConn essentially won two more (albeit important) games than us. If we win those championship games in 1987 and 1996, we have three titles and 6 Final Fours (over 5 decades) to their 4 titles and 5 FFs. And that’s not even counting AO’s injury and Fab being ruled ineligible.

That's a lot of "if"s

 

[UnknownOrange]

Not...trash?

I just fail to see how you could call UConn trash is all. Very odd. 4 titles to our 1 is a very sobering stat

 

[HOFCeluck]

I just fail to see how you could call UConn trash is all. Very odd. 4 titles to our 1 is a very sobering stat

Here’s a sobering stat;

Rutgers was picked for a Power 5 conference over Uconn.

Trashy program is trash.

 

[althea]

Here’s a sobering stat;

Rutgers was picked for a Power 5 conference over Uconn.

Trashy program is trash.

I don't know if I would call them trash. Their fans are trash, their athletic department is trash, the state is mostly trash, the student population and faculty are all trash, but when you put them all together it's more like compost.