PSU Trustees | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

PSU Trustees

"The sanctions are "excessive and unreasonable" because they inflict "permanent damage to an entire generation of student-athletes and coaches who were innocent of any wrongdoing during their time on campus ..."

This line of reasoning always makes me laugh. Most sanctions the NCAA places on programs are punishing the current players for something that happened in the past, in many cases before any of them were on campus. What is the NCAA supposed to do - not punish a program simply because all of the players are gone from the time of the transgression? Are they not supposed to punish Miami over the Shapiro mess because it would only punish players that had nothing to do with it?
The reasons for NCAA sanctions not just to punish for past violations but also to prevent future violations by making it hurt. If the NCAA can't apply sanctions because of the time period, there really isn't much disincentive to cheat and the NCAA is reduced to little more than a sports promoter.
exactly or how about this. "You know even though I committed that horrendous crime, I don't think you should put me away cuz it's may be bad for my family" Same thing. Fing pathetic.
 
So back to my question, how is a court going to rule that a voluntary organization can't apply these penalties? Because it involves deprivation of property (the fine)?

Courts rule on this sort of thing all the time.

Kids get expelled from private schools, Parents go to court and argue process was flawed and facts were in error.

Schools --- like the NCAA in this case -- are poorly prepare to perform the role of the courts and the police.
 
. The courts could easily agree with PSUs point on the impact on the innocent.

Just curious, which innocent people are actually harmed by the sanctions in their current form?

Scholarship athletes are made whole by allowing them to transfer without penalties.
Coaches knew what they were getting into.
The State College economy still has football.
Alumni/students/fans still have football.
Paterno is dead and therefore cannot be harmed by the loss of wins.
 
Courts rule on this sort of thing all the time.

Kids get expelled from private schools, Parents go to court and argue process was flawed and facts were in error.

Schools --- like the NCAA in this case -- are poorly prepare to perform the role of the courts and the police.
Attendance at a private school is a contract, no? That is the nexus to legal enforcement of due process. Is membership and participation in the NCAA contractual?
 
Either you are too dumb to get it or are trolling.
Either you are too dumb to get it or are trolling.

Your list of charges, "an out of control, win at all costs all, image protecting all for the greater good football culture and athletic department" is a little bit mushy.

If this was the sum total of PSU offenses, I'd say there are 20 or 30 schools that are equally guilty.
 
Attendance at a private school is a contract, no? That is the nexus to legal enforcement of due process. Is membership and participation in the NCAA contractual?

I'm not sure. Schools probably pay some sort of membership dues. There's a legal relationship there somewhere.
 
I'm not sure. Schools probably pay some sort of membership dues. There's a legal relationship there somewhere.
I was thinking the same thing right after I posted. So yes, there may be a case.
 
Your list of charges, "an out of control, win at all costs all, image protecting all for the greater good football culture and athletic department" is a little bit mushy.

If this was the sum total of PSU offenses, I'd say there are 20 or 30 schools that are equally guilty.

And when they are caught they are punished. PSU was caught and got a punishment for their actions. What PSU received is similar to what the NCAA handed out to USC and Ohio St.
 
And when they are caught they are punished. PSU was caught and got a punishment for their actions. What PSU received is similar to what the NCAA handed out to USC and Ohio St.
Could they just be taking a page from the USC playbook to minimize the impact of the sanctions? Appeal and self-implement some of the punishments (scholarship reductions) and delay others (bowl bans). They could retain bowl eligibility while it is negotiated/litigated AND while they still have a strong group of players. Accept the bowl ban later on when they might not have enough wins anyway, but they can tell future recruits that they'll be back in the bowl picture by the time they get to be upperclassmen. Not sure how the vacated wins fits into the picture - seems to be a big deal to the Peds, but seems more like a bargaining chip they could give in on to lessen other punishments.
 
Doesn't sound to me like these trustees are afraid of pressure.

If this gets to court, its going to be played by a whole new set of rules.

Yes, and those new rules will result in the outing of other BOT members and boosters and what they knew.

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Yes, and those new rules will result in the outing of other BOT members and boosters and what they knew.

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I'm not sure they are thinking that far ahead. I think they are of the mistaken impression that public opinion is on their side. They are going to find out otherwise in a very big way if they pursue this, imo.
 
This is pretty simple

1. The NCAA is a club that PSU has agreed to be part of and abide by that club's rules. Why and how can the Federal courts even look into this?

2. What you continually fail to see over and over again is that PSU is not being punished for criminal acts! They are being punished for an out of control, win at all costs all, image protecting all for the greater good football culture and athletic department. If Sandusky were a psychics professor and this was covered up by the head of the dept and the school Pres then the NCAA would not be doing a damn thing to the FB program. This is silly that you still do not get this. And because this was a football issue, the NCAA has jurisdiction. The are two issues here. One is the criminal acts of Sandusky. The second issue is the decision to protect the football program by not only covering this up but also allowing it to continue. They are being punished for the 2nd one not the 1st. Again they are not punishing the criminal behavior and you just can't get past that.
This. They VOLUNTARILY joined the NCAA. They could have never had a FB program, which would make all of this moot. What the NCAA did is not directly addressing the criminal aspect of this. They are addressing the callous disregard of the rules of decency implicit in belonging to the NCAA, along with the cover-up, lack of institutional control. etc.
 
"The sanctions are "excessive and unreasonable" because they inflict "permanent damage to an entire generation of student-athletes and coaches who were innocent of any wrongdoing during their time on campus ..."

I fail to see how not playing in a bowl game is permanent damage. If a bowl is that important to you as a player then they gave you the option to change schools.

The only permanent damage done was to the kids who were raped and every time they make comments like the above they belittle what happened to those children.
 
This hopefully will get the justice department to send a letter to Penn St and the BOT notifying them of the start of the federal investigation into aiding and abetting a child abuser for 14 yrs. They need to appoint a special prosecuter, so they can investigate the state,Penn St and the 2nd mile. A special prosecuter , so you have someone who can't be fired or intimidated.
 
This hopefully will get the justice department to send a letter to Penn St and the BOT notifying them of the start of the federal investigation into aiding and abetting a child abuser for 14 yrs. They need to appoint a special prosecuter, so they can investigate the state,Penn St and the 2nd mile. A special prosecuter , so you have someone who can't be fired or intimidated.
Great idea but will never happen under the current DOJ. Well...maybe if you can tie it to voter suppression.
 
Perfect. You said it perfectly, "reduced to little more than a sports reporter".

I'd say allowing this to go to the courts is a huge crapshoot for the NCAA. The courts could easily agree with PSUs point on the impact on the innocent.

do you not realize how many clawback issues are going on with madoff alone. my pension plan got ripped by him,and our money manager immediatly filed for bankruptcy the very next day,he created a mushroom cloud within his group of investors alone.Now just think about all the other investment houses that were innocent that has paid a nasty financial penalty

the owners of the Mets have to payback well over 300 million$$$$$$$$$ to the victims even though they thought money was theirs free and clear
 
I was one on the forum who said that the NCAA should not get heavily involved and I believed they would not ... because of the precedent it would set and the difficulties the NCAA would have policing this sort of criminal behavior. I was wrong on the "would not" part, obviously. We are now about to see Chapter 1 of the "should not" drama. We'll see just how wrong I was on this as it plays out in the NCAA and in the courts. This could get very, very messy.

What we are seeing is legal wrangling. There are PSU trustees that disagree with the way things were handled. They believe that the PSU president did not have the authority to accept the sanctions without a board vote.

They believe that the Freeh Report contained conclusions that were not correct and that the NCAA using this report as the basis for their actions was flawed.

They are saying that the punishment would affect many, many innocent people.

If this thing gets to State or even Federal Court, there's no telling what could happen. If the NCAA loses badly, then where are we?

I'm not arguing that the sanctions are too lenient, too severe or just right. But when things are done in a panic this is what you get.

I certainly understand your point of view and agree that, at the end of the day, the idea that the NCAA should just absolutely demolish a program for the sins of a previous regime is a bit off base. But, I disagree with you on a few key points.

1. You make the case that this is a dangerous precedent to set -- the NCAA being a moral police of sorts. But I'd say that neglects three pretty important points:
  • This is an absolutely unprecedented event. This isn't the coach at Baylor getting involved in that incident with the player shooting another player, which was horrible but a one-time event. This isn't Miami gets kids getting abortions paid for by donors. This isn't kids dealing blow. This isn't cheating, laptop stealing, fighting or, to be perfectly honest, a player or two players or three players involved in a sexual assault/rape. This was much, much, much worse. The point being, I'm not sure other schools, should they come under fire of the NCAA morality police will have much problem saying, "OK, we did some things we're not proud of, but you're going to reduce our schollies for a rash of kids on drugs? Seriously? You're going to compare those two?"
  • There is a very clear jurisdictional argument to be made in the sense that this never happens if not for a remarkably powerful football program and head coach. Those are clearly football-related issues and I'm frankly not sure how anyone could make the argument that the program didn't benefit quite a bit from not having to explain why their defensive coordinator was a founding member of NAMBLA.
  • There is also a pretty dangerous precedent to be set if the NCAA doesn't intervene. The whole reason all these programs exist -- though we all know it is BS and it's about money -- is the farce that these kids somehow benefit from playing sports. They develop character and leadership and teamwork skills, etc. BS? Yes, without question, but it's the entire basis of the NCAA's member programs. For them to say, "eh, we're not going to get our hands dirty. We're too busy with our new compliance manual." is completely crazy.
As for punishing innocent -- who is really being punished? I mean, what these kids who get a free education, a chance to make millions in the nfl, an elevated standing on campus, tutors, athletic gear, access to state of the art facilities to train, and the chance to play on TV and in front of 108,000 crazed lunatics (which has certainly been proven in this ped st case)? Really, you feel terrible that they can't go to Orlando for a bowl game? Or that they win 6 games instead of 8? The coaches? Poor Bill O'Brien, who's making 7 figures and took a job at a place where there was a huge scandal going on and who will return to the NFL if it doesn't work out? The assistants who change jobs every three years anyway? The fans who may have to stomach a couple lean years? Seriously that's some huge punitive punishment?
And, finally, the Freeh report -- I see people pointing this out all the time. Let's toss out the entire report and go only on what was proven:
-- PSU coaches not only knew of the allegations but a rape was witnessed by an -ing coach.
-- the venerable head coach said himself he wished he had handled it differently and then said he just didn't know what to do. ... pause ... sorry, I just had to vomit quickly.
-- the guy was arrested in possession of keys to the PSU facilities.
-- The guy retired/was pushed out in '98 for very, very, very fishy reasons.
-- the guy has been convicted of 45 counts of abuse and there are many reports of his obsession with hanging out with boys, something that obviously must have struck a few people as odd.
I mean, they're not all hard evidence, but I'd suggest that the NCAA had plenty of evidence to nail PedSt for, at the very least, not being proactive in stopping a guy they had a very good idea was a serial child molester. That's plenty of cause for levying the sanctions they did as far as I'm concerned.
 
Yes - I do think the entire PSU community should shut the **** up and accept the penalties and move on with their lives. They are fortunate that they still have football and there will be no economic impact to their region.

It's just depressing to recognize that there are now sports programs that are 'too big to fail'
 
...

1. You make the case that this is a dangerous precedent to set -- the NCAA being a moral police of sorts ...[/quote"]

Close to my point, but not exact. The NCAA isn't acting like the "moral police", they are acting like the real court system. They are crossing over into a new realm. Some feel its justified because of the unprecedented seriousness --- and general yuckiness --- of the core offenses. Some claim they can see the line between the offenses and behaviors and the traditional role of the NCAA.

I say, "Not so fast."

The NCAA's authority comes from the agreement of the members to voluntarily abide by a set of rules. The member institutions agree on what gifts a recruit can receive on an official visit. If a school violates these rules, the NCAA can sanction them.

As long as it's minor stuff --- the offenses and the punishments --- the whole thing works. The school and its fans may not be happy, but they acquiese. The whole thing works because all parties agree to follow both the rules and the decisions of the NCAA.

If the PSU trustess don't back away, we are about to find out what the "real' court system and the law says about all of this. They are dragging this from the voluntary world of the NCAA into the legal world.

And its within the realm of possibility that the NCAA could lose its ass and have its authority greatly weakened.
 
Well if they appeal and win, then we should appeal to let Fab play in the game against OSU and replay the elite 8. Just sayin.
 
Well if they appeal and win, then we should appeal to let Fab play in the game against OSU and replay the elite 8. Just sayin.

I believe SU suspended Fab, not the NCAA.

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And Penn State signed on to the sanctions.

Look I know this is complicated and frustrating.

But that's one of this Trustee group's bitches that the PSU President never bothered to get the approval of the whole Board of Trustees when he "signed on" for the University. If that turns out to be a requirement, then this "signing on" needs to be re-done, this time with the approval of the whole BOT.

In the words of lawyer Bill Clinton, "It depends on what the definition of "is" is."

Once again I'll say it. If this group of PSU trustees doesn't sit down and shut up this agreement could all unravel. And the NCAA enforcement power could shrivel.
 
If the PSU Pres did not get approval from the full board that sounds more like PSU's problem than the NCAA's. Let him sue the PSU Pres.
 
If I go buy a car, and my wife says I should have consulted her and that's a rule we have, it doesn't really matter to the car company that sold it to me.

If I broker an agreement at work, and go to the manager of the group I brokered it with, and he signs without consulting anyone else, that's not my problem that he didn't do things the right way on his side.

A representative of Penn State with the power to sign a document, did so. If the BoT is pissed that he did, take it up with him.

If I were the NCAA, I'd say 'ok, we'll accept your appeal'. and then after you talk it over, drop the nuke on them.
 

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