QB thoughts

[TheCusian]

So what is more predictable? That's the part I don't get about the argument you keep try to put forward.

Results. What you actually did. Any step up in position QB coach > OC or competition D3 HC > ACC QB coach comes with question marks.

Coaching trees are for lazy media people who don't know how evaluate coaches. If you're a HC and called up Saban and said "hey this guy had great success under you as a QB coach, how do you think he'd do as OC?" - you'll get better info than assuming he's great because he coached under Saban.

To me that's the point: fans and media types have to draw these lines because they don't have the insight and info to actually gauge how good a coach is. It's not unlike how stars are for the fans in recruiting. Bite-sized, easily digested - but coaches actually evaluate the talent and tape.

 

[TheCusian]

baylor marshall western kentucky east carolina tcu washington state texas tech? gimme a break

That's where the protégés job is not the top. Texas Tech was a place lots of people wanted to be. Who was Leeche's teacher? Do you know without looking it up?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Who cares who is from any coaching tree? It's an imperfect metric. That's the point: a wildly inconsistent way of measuring coaches.

then just what do you suggest??

how would you hire a guy??

since clearly, you are not looking at his resume.

 

[TheCusian]

then just what do you suggest?? how would you hire a guy?? since clearly, you are not looking at his resume.

Interview, coaching connections, resume, tape, numbers, references, etc. It all counts. I would not lean on "hey, he coached under Saban so he must be good" or "his HC was a no-name so he must suck" too hard. It would be folly based on history.

 

[javadoc]

lets go through the top 10 offenses last year

briles - coached under leach
doc holliday - urban meyer
helfrich - chip kelly
jeff brohm - petrino
TCU OCs - leach
east carolina ruffin mcneil, lincoln riley - leach
washington st leach
mississippi state dan mullen - meyer
ohio state - meyer
texas tech kingsbury - leach

bill cubit was 97th in the country last year

MEANINGLESS I TELL YA

top 10 offenses are either leach kelly petrino and meyer or guys that worked for them

we've had a hundred offensive coordinators and the leach/meyer tree is spreading all over the country but NOOOOOOOO we can't go there. you'd think we'd hire someone who's worked for them by accident by now

I wonder why the tree matters. If a couple offensive approaches are proving measurably to be the most successful, why does it matter if someone coached with one of the gurus? Look at film of what they're doing and emulate it.

Also wonder about guys from the coaching tree that are not as successful. Are they out there? Why are they failing?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Interview, coaching connections, resume, tape, numbers, references, etc. It all counts. I would not lean on "hey, he coached under Saban so he must be good" or "his HC was a no-name so he must suck" too hard. It would be folly based on history.

i dont think anyone ever suggested only that.

youre backtracking.

looks like you do think a persons history matters.

and if that history showed he coached under someone (like garrett under saben) do you not consider that to be a great check in the proverbial box?

 

[Millhouse]

That's where the protégés job is not the top. Texas Tech was a place lots of people wanted to be. Who was Leeche's teacher? Do you know without looking it up?

hal mumme of course. i wanted mumme's offense here before i knew who leach was

texas tech hired him because mumme's offense was great

 

[Millhouse]

I wonder why the tree matters. If a couple offensive approaches are proving measurably to be the most successful, why does it matter if someone coached with one of the gurus? Look at film of what they're doing and emulate it.

Also wonder about guys from the coaching tree that are not as successful. Are they out there? Why are they failing?

these offenses are simple but i doubt they're so simple that you can simply emulate it

but yes, i would prefer we hire a coach who emulates what works rather than either emulate cubit or invents something that was tested at elmworst

 

[Millhouse]

Coaching trees are for lazy media people who don't know how evaluate coaches.

less lazy than promoting your friend from directional michigan

 

[SUFaninNJ]

And to think, I was hoping for some insightful thoughts on SU's QB situation on a thread titled: "QB Thoughts". Silly me, what was I thinking? :bang:

 

[TheCusian]

i dont think anyone ever suggested only that. youre backtracking. looks like you do think a persons history matters. and if that history showed he coached under someone (like garrett under saben) do you not consider that to be a great check in the proverbial box?

No. What I'm saying is that folks here give it too much credence because they are limited in how much info they have about a candidate. I'm suggesting that real HC gather way more info about a candidate and come into the conversation with far more knowledge than just about everyone here.

Because we are limited to "coaching trees", records, and media clippings we overrate those values.

It would a check. I'm not sure how great it would given all of the info available.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Results. What you actually did. Any step up in position QB coach > OC or competition D3 HC > ACC QB coach comes with question marks.

Coaching trees are for lazy media people who don't know how evaluate coaches. If you're a HC and called up Saban and said "hey this guy had great success under you as a QB coach, how do you think he'd do as OC?" - you'll get better info than assuming he's great because he coached under Saban.

To me that's the point: fans and media types have to draw these lines because they don't have the insight and info to actually gauge how good a coach is. It's not unlike how stars are for the fans in recruiting. Bite-sized, easily digested - but coaches actually evaluate the talent and tape.

OK, but here's the problem if we're applying that standard to Lester - Lester has no objectively positive results at this level.

 

[TheCusian]

hal mumme of course. i wanted mumme's offense here before i knew who leach was texas tech hired him because mumme's offense was great

Credit where credit is due. Although most haven't heard of his coaching tree, I'd imagine.

 

[TheCusian]

less lazy than promoting your friend from directional michigan

Ha! Or a proven enough coach whom you trust and admire and think he can do great things based on your shared history, references, etc.

 

[TheCusian]

OK, but here's the problem if we're applying that standard to Lester - Lester has no objectively positive results at this level.

That's why I said anybody we are going to get is going to have question marks. Do people here think we are going to snag an OC from Baylor or TCU? We might be able to get a QB coach from one of those schools to be an OC - but then they still come with question marks.

 

[Millhouse]

Credit where credit is due. Although most haven't heard of his coaching tree, I'd imagine.

if you don't know about hal mumme's coaching tree, maybe you shouldn't be so adamant that coaching trees don't matter

mumme is a maniac who passed on a great system. each descendent on the tree gets a little less insane. some form of it is everywhere. west virginia, oklahoma, texas a&m, texas tech, baylor, cal

mumme sort of came out of lavell edwards

 

[TheCusian]

Also - my QB thoughts are this. Hunt can be mediocre passing the ball if he's moving the chains with his feet and we are running the ball okay. That might be enough to replicate 2013 this year and better than anyone else we have on the roster.

I think it's AJ in 2016 OR if he flames out we roll the dice with Dungey or Womack. I don't believe in Wilson at all.

 

[TheCusian]

if you don't know about hal mumme's coaching tree, maybe you shouldn't be so adamant that coaching trees don't matter mumme is a maniac who passed on a great system. each descendent on the tree gets a little less insane. some form of it is everywhere. west virginia, oklahoma, texas a&m, texas tech, baylor, cal mumme sort of came out of lavell edwards

I'll claim ignorance there. But it still strikes me as an overrated metric used by fans and the media. I'd be terrified if any of us could hire the right guy based on "coaching tree" alone.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Ha! Or a proven enough coach whom you trust and admire and think he can do great things based on your shared history, references, etc.

bingo.

a 'proven enough' coach for your sliding scale to get you to hire your friends based on your shared history and same references.

id think about sitting the rest of this one out...

 

[TheCusian]

bingo. a 'proven enough' coach for your sliding scale to get you to hire your friends based on your shared history and same references. id think about sitting the rest of this one out...

Says the guy without any of that info or experience available to him. An "easy" choice for the fan: "uh, go with the best resume and record" is a way to hire the wrong guy. That's how RichRod hired Shafer.

 

[kcsu]

The tree does matter. I worked for a guy who started a business in Omaha NE. That company has produced over 15 individuals who have gone onto start their own companies and as a result have created over 200,000 current jobs in this country and most likely three to five times that amount world wide.

 

[JrodCuse]

whoever drew this up, give him a promotion!

if #57 doesn't get beat like a bad dog, that pass will get off smoothly. So who do you blame for that? The OC? The O-line coach? The player?

 

[Millhouse]

if #57 doesn't get beat like a bad dog, that pass will get off smoothly. So who do you blame for that? The OC? The O-line coach? The player?

i blame the oc


it took six seconds for the ball to go from hash mark to hash mark and back

wilson was in the shotgun and took a 20 step drop

 

[RF2044]

hal mumme of course. i wanted mumme's offense here before i knew who leach was

texas tech hired him because mumme's offense was great

Oops. That was a collossal softball.

 

[TheCusian]

Oops. That was a collossal softball.

Yep. Left it over the plate.