QB thoughts

[TheCusian]

rainbows, unicorns, magic beans and lesters offense run by lester. got it.

Read. Never said he is the second coming. Just that no one has enough info. Leaning on coaching trees and the end of last season is weak sauce.

 

[Crusty]

You guys are nuts. D3 players are just smaller, slower or less athletic than D1 players. That is why they are d3 players, nothing do with football IQ. Geeze

Perhaps so, perhaps not. However, slower and less athletic have limitations as well. The types of plays they can execute would probably be limited. Coaching would seem to be even more important with more development required.
I wonder if they have the same or less pre-college experience e.g. NYS players.

 

[TheCusian]

Perhaps so, perhaps not. However, slower and less athletic have limitations as well. The types of plays they can execute would probably be limited. Coaching would seem to be even more important with more development required.
I wonder if they have the same or less pre-college experience e.g. NYS players.

I would say with less of a reliance on athleticism, you'd have to rely on execution and scheme. You'd do less "throw it up because the guy is a freak" and more "how do we get this guy open consistently when he's not able to run away from anyone"...

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I would say with less of a reliance on athleticism, you'd have to rely on execution and scheme. You'd do less "throw it up because the guy is a freak" and more "how do we get this guy open consistently when he's not able to run away from anyone"...

No you don't, the game is on a level playing field when it's d3 versus d3 but it's certainly more sophisticated than high school ball. It's just slower versus 1A and 1AA for that matter, the wide receivers are slower but so are the DB's. Only time I have ever seen pure dominance at that level was when Piere Garcon played them from Mount Union and we know where he wound up. You guys are way overthinking this. There are qb's that can throw, some better than others. Is what it is. The kids play whatever scheme their coaches tell them to. A few of the IC coaches left for 1A positions a number of years ago and one of the reasons they were hired at specific programs is because IC ran a very similar offense. Two of them are now coaches in the NFL.

The trickiest part about the D3 Level is recruiting

 

[Millhouse]

Yeah - it's okay to admit we don't have enough info to form a real solid opinion.

there are billions of people for whom we could say that.

he learned from a lousy offensive head coach who relies on dopey trick plays (we saw this influence last year) , he had moderate success at a dIII school, we've had terrible QB play from multiple QBs that he coached, the offense stunk both years he coached here, and he hasn't communicated clearly what his offense will actually be.

we should start hiring offensive coaches where there is enough info to form a real solid opinion

 

[TheCusian]

there are billions of people for whom we could say that.

he learned from a lousy offensive head coach who relies on dopey trick plays (we saw this influence last year) , he had moderate success at a dIII school, we've had terrible QB play from multiple QBs that he coached, the offense stunk both years he coached here, and he hasn't communicated clearly what his offense will actually be.

we should start hiring offensive coaches where there is enough info to form a real solid opinion

Meh - everyone runs some trick plays. Moderate success but in the top 10% of coaches in D3. Didn't know that we were attributing all bad offense to the QB coach of someone elses recruits in a busted system. He's communicated it very clearly for a guy who doesn't want to give away what he's doing (there are zero OC's who share in detail what they plan to run, that's why they use the words "multiple" and "run/pass mix" etc.).

I agree with your last point. But as we stated before you're running up against the "I think I know more than Shafer" dead end. You can question the hire - there's not a lot to go on. But in the end Shafer thinks he can do it. If he can't they will be both be gone and you can complain about the next guy who is not as smart as you are.

 

[TheCusian]

No you don't, the game is on a level playing field when it's d3 versus d3 but it's certainly more sophisticated than high school ball. It's just slower versus 1A and 1AA for that matter, the wide receivers are slower but so are the DB's. Only time I have ever seen pure dominance at that level was when Piere Garcon played them from Mount Union and we know where he wound up. You guys are way overthinking this. There are qb's that can throw, some better than others. Is what it is. The kids play whatever scheme their coaches tell them to. A few of the IC coaches left for 1A positions a number of years ago and one of the reasons they were hired at specific programs is because IC ran a very similar offense. Two of them are now coaches in the NFL.

The trickiest part about the D3 Level is recruiting

Meh. Don't care enough about it. Cede the argument to you.

 

[Millhouse]

Meh - everyone runs some trick plays. Moderate success but in the top 10% of coaches in D3. Didn't know that we were attributing all bad offense to the QB coach of someone elses recruits in a busted system. He's communicated it very clearly for a guy who doesn't want to give away what he's doing (there are zero OC's who share in detail what they plan to run, that's why they use the words "multiple" and "run/pass mix" etc.).

I agree with your last point. But as we stated before you're running up against the "I think I know more than Shafer" dead end. You can question the hire - there's not a lot to go on. But in the end Shafer thinks he can do it. If he can't they will be both be gone and you can complain about the next guy who is not as smart as you are.

to get to top 10% you're doing some serious cherry picking

 

[Millhouse]

Meh - everyone runs some trick plays. Moderate success but in the top 10% of coaches in D3. Didn't know that we were attributing all bad offense to the QB coach of someone elses recruits in a busted system. He's communicated it very clearly for a guy who doesn't want to give away what he's doing (there are zero OC's who share in detail what they plan to run, that's why they use the words "multiple" and "run/pass mix" etc.).

I agree with your last point. But as we stated before you're running up against the "I think I know more than Shafer" dead end. You can question the hire - there's not a lot to go on. But in the end Shafer thinks he can do it. If he can't they will be both be gone and you can complain about the next guy who is not as smart as you are.

whoever drew this up, give him a promotion!

 

[jekelish]

Perhaps so, perhaps not. However, slower and less athletic have limitations as well. The types of plays they can execute would probably be limited. Coaching would seem to be even more important with more development required.
I wonder if they have the same or less pre-college experience e.g. NYS players.

No, it's definitely still just football. It just happens to be played with guys who aren't quite big enough or fast enough to play at a higher level. That's really the only difference. I work in D3, and the football players at my school come from a lot of the same big time programs from around Dallas that produces guys who go to Texas and Oklahoma and TCU and on and on and on. The guys who play D3 are just guys who aren't big enough or athletic enough. Hell, last year I know there was a starting safety for St. Thomas Aquinas who wound up going the D3 route while everyone else on that team was either D1 or borderline D1.

D3 football is still football, just played by slower and smaller guys. We've had kids at my school who were transfers (and had scholarships) to places like Air Force and Navy, and they weren't leaps and bounds better, for instance. Okay, the kid from Navy was. But he was also 6-4, 220 and ran a 4.6 playing tight end.

 

[kcsu]

Good coaches can coach at any level. We have a HS girls basketball coach who retired as a hall of fame HS boys coach in Kansas. Kids went to top flight schools as it was the largest schools division in Kansas. He moved to the mountains and got the itch to coach again. He came back as a girls coach at the lowest level in CO and within 3 years had them in states. Coaching is coaching regardless of the level of talent. Its just that superior talent can often mask poor coaching

 

[TheCusian]

whoever drew this up, give him a promotion!

Yep. Ugly. ONE PLAY.

Give it a rest. You simply don't know enough to form a solid opinion. So, like the rest of us, you're waiting to see what happens.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Read. Never said he is the second coming. Just that no one has enough info. Leaning on coaching trees and the end of last season is weak sauce.

you mean ignoring, like...the proven ways to find if someone is cut out for any job???

 

[TheCusian]

you mean ignoring, like...the proven ways to find if someone is cut out for any job???

Coaching trees don't prove much. Plenty pan out, plenty don't. It's a highly overrated metric. It assumes the pupil is an empty vessel ready to be exactly the same coach as the mentor. Garbage.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Coaching trees don't prove much. Plenty pan out, plenty don't. It's a highly overrated metric. It assumes the pupil is an empty vessel ready to be exactly the same coach as the mentor. Garbage.

1000s of years of apprentice-ship...disgarded as garbage.

100s of years of hiring from the top schools when looking for captains of industry...useless.

100s of years of football coaches learning from the masters...foolish.

got it.

 

[TheCusian]

1000s of years of apprentice-ship...disgarded as garbage. 100s of years of hiring from the top schools when looking for captains of industry...useless. 100s of years of football coaches learning from the masters...foolish. got it.

Overstating your case by a 100.

Whose coaching tree is Chip Kelly? Jason Garrett? Who was Obama's favorite professor in college? Could go on forever.

The only time coaching tress are brought up are when the guy pans out.

 

[jekelish]

I don't think you need to come from a coaching tree to know how to coach, but it certainly helps raise your profile and get you better gigs where you can put your acumen on display earlier if you coached under Nick Saban or Bob Stoops or Urban Meyer or whoever. Cream will always rise, sometimes it just rises faster because of the opportunities that come from having coached under those great mentors.

Not saying Lester is going to be the "cream"...that's still to be seen. But coming from a good coaching tree doesn't always mean anything (just ask former SU hoops assistant Wayne Morgan, for example).

I'm not one way or the other on this argument, by the way. There are successes and failures on both sides of the debate. I do think it goes back to the fact that if you're a guy who came up under Nick Saban you're going to get better opportunities earlier in your career, so it's going to make that coaching tree look fantastic if you can actually coach a little.

 

[Millhouse]

1000s of years of apprentice-ship...disgarded as garbage.

100s of years of hiring from the top schools when looking for captains of industry...useless.

100s of years of football coaches learning from the masters...foolish.

got it.

lets go through the top 10 offenses last year

briles - coached under leach
doc holliday - urban meyer
helfrich - chip kelly
jeff brohm - petrino
TCU OCs - leach
east carolina ruffin mcneil, lincoln riley - leach
washington st leach
mississippi state dan mullen - meyer
ohio state - meyer
texas tech kingsbury - leach

bill cubit was 97th in the country last year

MEANINGLESS I TELL YA

top 10 offenses are either leach kelly petrino and meyer or guys that worked for them

we've had a hundred offensive coordinators and the leach/meyer tree is spreading all over the country but NOOOOOOOO we can't go there. you'd think we'd hire someone who's worked for them by accident by now

 

[TheCusian]

I don't think you need to come from a coaching tree to know how to coach, but it certainly helps raise your profile and get you better gigs where you can put your acumen on display earlier if you coached under Nick Saban or Bob Stoops or Urban Meyer or whoever. Cream will always rise, sometimes it just rises faster because of the opportunities that come from having coached under those great mentors. Not saying Lester is going to be the "cream"...that's still to be seen. But coming from a good coaching tree doesn't always mean anything (just ask former SU hoops assistant Wayne Morgan, for example). I'm not one way or the other on this argument, by the way. There are successes and failures on both sides of the debate. I do think it goes back to the fact that if you're a guy who came up under Nick Saban you're going to get better opportunities earlier in your career, so it's going to make that coaching tree look fantastic if you can actually coach a little.

Exactly. My point is that because it's wildly unpredictable - it makes it almost moot.

 

[Millhouse]

Great no-response.

Truth is learning does matter. Who you learn from does matter. Coaching trees are "he was OC or QB coach under this guy so he must be just like him" ... Truth is NO ONE CARES about coaching trees until two guys from the same HC who might be similar have success.

Is Marrone apart of the Sean Peyton/Bill Parcells tree? Or Coach Mac? Or Fulmer?

What about JAB's coaching tree? Pitino? And who else!?! What about the Danforth coaching tree?

Overrated.

thank you for talking about a basketball coach hired in the 70s

who even cares which coaching tree casey stengel is on, amirite?

 

[TheCusian]

lets go through the top 10 offenses last year briles - coached under leach doc holliday - urban meyer helfrich - chip kelly jeff brohm - petrino TCU OCs - leach east carolina ruffin mcneil, lincoln riley - leach washington st leach mississippi state dan mullen - meyer ohio state - meyer texas tech kingsbury - leach bill cubit was 97th in the country last year MEANINGLESS I TELL YA top 10 offenses are either leach kelly petrino and meyer or guys that worked for them we've had a hundred offensive coordinators and the leach/meyer tree is spreading all over the country but NOOOOOOOO we can't go there. you'd think we'd hire someone who's worked for them by accident by now

Chicken or the egg?! Those guys you mentioned attract the best young minds and happen to be at jobs that hire the best.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Exactly. My point is that because it's wildly unpredictable - it makes it almost moot.

So what is more predictable? That's the part I don't get about the argument you keep try to put forward.

 

[Millhouse]

Chicken or the egg?! Those guys you mentioned attract the best young minds and happen to be at jobs that hire the best.

baylor marshall western kentucky east carolina tcu washington state texas tech?

gimme a break

 

[TheCusian]

and kelly had proven much more in college. no need to talk about deciles and quartiles with his track record in new hampshire

We should hire the old New Hampshire coach. He's got to be better than Kelly, right? Kelly is from his tree.

 

[TheCusian]

thank you for talking about a basketball coach hired in the 70s who even cares which coaching tree casey stengel is on, amirite?

Who cares who is from any coaching tree? It's an imperfect metric. That's the point: a wildly inconsistent way of measuring coaches.