Recruiting has taken a hit | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Recruiting has taken a hit

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NYCorange said:
Eh, in 2007, we got the #3 PF, Donte Green, the #5 PG Jonny Flynn, the #17 SG Scoop, and the #


I agree, although to be fair, Joseph, Scoop and Jackson were all top 50 depending on the recruiting service we used.
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So is Guerrier, but people keep saying he’s outside the top 100. It’s easy to disprove this stuff with google.
 
dasher said:
Wahab isn't in the top 100 in two different recruiting top 100 I just looked at
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Not sure what you mean but the guy who started this thread is crying cuz we missed on Wab and we haven’t been in it for awhile
 
Cusefan0307 said:
We are getting the same quality of kids that we have always got for the most part.
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Have followed recruiting VERY closely since the 80s. We are NOT even being mentioned with top recruitsat the level we were in the past. Need apoint guard?? Never a serious sniff at Cole Anthony from NYC. Anyone that points to Bazely, misses the point that he fell in Griff's lap (w/a Moyer assist) after committing elsewhere. That elsewhere had the Matta thingy going on. Plus, he never showed up. IS and TB were in our backyard. Should have been there so much that the car was on auto pilot when they were in Rochester. So, no we have not landed Melo, Owens, Pearl type. They only come along every so often for us. But it seems now we won't have another until some new longer term certainty comes to the hill.
 
Cusedad2X said:
Have followed recruiting VERY closely since the 80s. We are NOT even being mentioned with top recruitsat the level we were in the past. Need apoint guard?? Never a serious sniff at Cole Anthony from NYC. Anyone that points to Bazely, misses the point that he fell in Griff's lap (w/a Moyer assist) after committing elsewhere. That elsewhere had the Matta thingy going on. Plus, he never showed up. IS and TB were in our backyard. Should have been there so much that the car was on auto pilot when they were in Rochester. So, no we have not landed Melo, Owens, Pearl type. They only come along every so often for us. But it seems now we won't have another until some new longer term certainty comes to the hill.
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Maybe getting slapped by the NCAA twice has changed what we do In Recruiting?
 
Cusedad2X said:
Have followed recruiting VERY closely since the 80s. We are NOT even being mentioned with top recruitsat the level we were in the past. Need apoint guard?? Never a serious sniff at Cole Anthony from NYC. Anyone that points to Bazely, misses the point that he fell in Griff's lap (w/a Moyer assist) after committing elsewhere. That elsewhere had the Matta thingy going on. Plus, he never showed up. IS and TB were in our backyard. Should have been there so much that the car was on auto pilot when they were in Rochester. So, no we have not landed Melo, Owens, Pearl type. They only come along every so often for us. But it seems now we won't have another until some new longer term certainty comes to the hill.
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hoopsupstate said:
Maybe getting slapped by the NCAA twice has changed what we do In Recruiting?
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This came up in another thread recently, and I think hoopsupstate nailed it. During the late 80s / pre-probation early 90s, we were involved with top 10 caliber talent every year. We landed some [Derrick Coleman, Billy Owens, John Wallace], and missed on some [Kenny Anderson, Terry Mills], but we went toe-to-toe with teams like UNC and won some of those recruiting battles.

Then, we got nailed with the long standing NCAA probe beginning in 1991 that resulted in probation, and suddenly we stopped chasing those kind of players. Prior to that, I think we played the game like everyone else -- Rob Johnson, etc. After that, our profile of recruit changed.

I also think that JB doesn't like to go after those types of players anymore -- not only is the recruiting too "messy," but I believe that we were an early adopter of proactive NCAA compliance, and any extracurricular "incentives" to come here went away entirely. Boeheim has always done a good job of identifying talent early -- we were all over Anthony Davis, for example, but then he blew up and became expen$ive to land, and we dropped out. Quade Green is another example of a guy we identified / targeted early, only to have him explode prior to his senior year on the national scene, changing his profile on the recruiting trail.

Relative to the likes of Arizona, Louisville, etc. our recruiting slipped. We still landed some great players -- CJ Fair, Dion Waiters, Rak, Battle, just for example -- but these were guys with upside who were a notch below true blue chip status. I kind of think that's the type of player Boeheim prefers to chase -- coachable guys that we can land easier, that he doesn't have to worry about Duke / UK / Arizona swiping.

Recruiting is hard work. Teenagers are fickle, and that seems to get more extreme with each passing year. I think it must be tough for an old guy to relate to kids that age, and to kiss their butts with your professional performance tied to what they decide. Would really like to see us hire another bulldog recruiter with a great "eye" for talent, like Troy Weaver.
 
Cuse#1 said:
Absolutely not. It's a pretty simple and clear statement and question when I started this thread. Obviously I'm not the only one who's having the same concerns I'm having when it comes to recruiting. Like I said before yes we are still getting good players some top 100 players but lower-end top 100 players and I think the recruiting has taken a dip. now we'll see how these players turn out after they get here I hope I'm wrong right now I think they could do better
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I agree with u as well. But when u say it on here a lot of people get their panties in a wad about it and I don’t understand. We should be recruiting better. The best facilities or at least top 5 in country, thank u Melo. Most fans and the dome. How are we not getting better players. I have followed these guys since 1983 and seams like we could do better. Not saying I know how or for that matter could do better. We got some good kids this year but we need a Stewart or someone of that caliber to stay or do well in the ACC.
 
RF2044 said:
This came up in another thread recently, and I think hoopsupstate nailed it. During the late 80s / pre-probation early 90s, we were involved with top 10 caliber talent every year. We landed some [Derrick Coleman, Billy Owens, John Wallace], and missed on some [Kenny Anderson, Terry Mills], but we went toe-to-toe with teams like UNC and won some of those recruiting battles.

Then, we got nailed with the long standing NCAA probe beginning in 1991 that resulted in probation, and suddenly we stopped chasing those kind of players. Prior to that, I think we played the game like everyone else -- Rob Johnson, etc. After that, our profile of recruit changed.

I also think that JB doesn't like to go after those types of players anymore -- not only is the recruiting too "messy," but I believe that we were an early adopter of proactive NCAA compliance, and any extracurricular "incentives" to come here went away entirely. Boeheim has always done a good job of identifying talent early -- we were all over Anthony Davis, for example, but then he blew up and became expen$ive to land, and we dropped out. Quade Green is another example of a guy we identified / targeted early, only to have him explode prior to his senior year on the national scene, changing his profile on the recruiting trail.

Relative to the likes of Arizona, Louisville, etc. our recruiting slipped. We still landed some great players -- CJ Fair, Dion Waiters, Rak, Battle, just for example -- but these were guys with upside who were a notch below true blue chip status. I kind of think that's the type of player Boeheim prefers to chase -- coachable guys that we can land easier, that he doesn't have to worry about Duke / UK / Arizona swiping.

Recruiting is hard work. Teenagers are fickle, and that seems to get more extreme with each passing year. I think it must be tough for an old guy to relate to kids that age, and to kiss their butts with your professional performance tied to what they decide. Would really like to see us hire another bulldog recruiter with a great "eye" for talent, like Troy Weaver.
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I was going to post this same suggestion - we need a hot recruiter like oxygen - especially someone with experience developing bigs. Sanctions hurt us, but we're back at 13 and should have mostly recovered by now. JB's age is clearly a factor, and in that context I can't help but look at what Babers staff has done. Different sport ... sure, but recruiting's about relationships and excitement - sales. And FB, ironically, has surged so far ahead of BB in 3 years it's not funny. Fresh legs.

Your account of the history is also accurate. We used to be just outside the selector schools, and could compete for the 5-stars. Now we're competing for (and often losing) 3-4 stars .. especially bigs. Money is still a factor in recruiting (e.g., Bazely), and we just can't get involved in that. Teenagers are also fickle, and many seem to enjoy celebrity more than sober deliberation about the best college fit. Either way, we can't keep doing the same things and hoping for a better outcome.
 
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reedny said:
I was going to post this same suggestion - we need a hot recruiter like oxygen - especially someone with experience developing bigs. Sanctions hurt us, no doubt, but we're back at 13 and not recovering as I would have hoped. JB's age is clearly a factor, and in that context I can't help but look at what Babers staff has done. Different sport ... sure, but recruiting's about relationships and excitement - sales. And FB, ironically, has surged so far ahead of BB in 3 years it's not funny.

Your account of the history is also accurate. We used to be just outside the selector schools, and could compete for the 5-stars. Now we're competing for (and often losing) 3-4 stars .. especially bigs. Money is still a factor in recruiting (e.g., Bazely), and we just can't get involved in that. Teenagers are also fickle, and many seem to enjoy the celebrity more than sober deliberation about the best college fit. Either way, we can't keep doing the same things and hoping for a better outcome.
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The crazy thing is: I actually think we're recruiting reasonably well at all other positions EXCEPT for center. Not sure why that's the case.

And it feels exacerbated because the coaching staff [correctly, IMO] recognized the need to bring in depth last year and chased several players like you described -- 3-4 star mid-tier kind of recruits -- such as Valdir Manuel [who picked about 5 other schools], Osunn Osunnyi [St. Bonaventure], Bryce Golden [Butler], and now Wahab [Georgetown].

We land any one of those players, and I think we're in solid shape. I also agree with Moqui about Ajak being better than seemingly a substantial portion of the fanbase expects. But I also think it will take him a year or two to round into form. It would have been nice to have a Osunnyi or Golden going through the growing pains this year, to be more ready for a bigger role next year.

Ultimately, we need Sidibe to make the "sophomore leap" that he was denied this past offseason, due to having to recover from surgery instead of working on his game. If that happens, then I think we're okay next year. But if he doesn't improve... and we fail to land an early contributor this offseason [which seems to be the case], it could get ugly.
 
It's also frustrating to see other schools [like UNC] stack tons of blue chip bigs, while we can't seem to land one.

Even Georgetown, who just landed Wahab yesterday, added another highly rated center to this class earlier in the year. Why can teams like that add multiple players at the same position, while we struggle to entice even 1 to come here?
 
RF2044 said:
It's also frustrating to see other schools [like UNC] stack tons of blue chip bigs, while we can't seem to land one.

Even Georgetown, who just landed Wahab yesterday, added another highly rated center to this class earlier in the year. Why can teams like that add multiple players at the same position, while we struggle to entice even 1 to come here?
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Talented Bigs - our main recruiting problem the last few cycles - have their pick of high profile schools. The difference maker seems to be the staff, a coach or assistant coach that they can relate to and develop under. For Wahab, it was Ewing. For Stewart, it was Hop - someone with whom he had built a relationship that had experience working with bigs at the Olympics. IMO that's the piece we're missing.
 
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NBA wise I look at our 2009-2014 teams and see:

2009 - NBA: Flynn(6th pick), Onuaku, Rautins, Joseph. Also had stud recruits and productive players: Harris, Devendorf

2010- NBA: Johnson(4th pick), Rautins, Onuaku, Joseph, Southerland.

2011- NBA: Waiters(4th pick), Melo, Southerland, Joseph

2012- NBA: Waiters (4th pick), MCW(lottery pick), Melo, Southerland, Joseph, Christmas

2013 - NBA: MCW(lottery pick), Southerland, Christmas, Grant

2014 - NBA: Ennis, Grant, Christmas, Gbinije

2015, 2016, and 2017 featured 3, 3, and 2 NBA guys respectively. 2018 - 0 so far, and Battle would appear to be the only guy with a decent chance.

Whether it’s recruiting, player development, or both - we haven’t been as talented.

Those 2009-2014 teams all had between 4-6 NBA players on it, 2009-2013 all had a lottery pick and 2009-2012 all had a top 6 pick.

I think we’re still getting guys similar to Triche, Scoop, Jackson, Fair, etc. - the solid college players and solid recruits - and recruiting wise we’re still getting guys like Southerland, Joseph, etc. They’re just not developing into NBA guys lately.

We haven’t had a Flynn, Waiters, MCW, or Wes level player or recruits like Melo and Harris though in awhile.

Those 2009-2014 teams had a nice mix of top level talent, and depth. We were really clicking on all cylinders as a program IMO. NCAA messed it up. We’ll see if we can get back to it.
 
RF2044 said:
It's also frustrating to see other schools [like UNC] stack tons of blue chip bigs, while we can't seem to land one.

Even Georgetown, who just landed Wahab yesterday, added another highly rated center to this class earlier in the year. Why can teams like that add multiple players at the same position, while we struggle to entice even 1 to come here?
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They must see or are told about how little our bigs contribute offensively. I have no other explanation for why we seemingly almost refuse to go after anybody with skill on the interior. Any big with offensive skills with some ability to play the middle of the zone should be a priority and should want to come here. It's not like the minutes aren't there. So why can't we get anyone?

I think we have far too narrow of an approach to recruiting, and have for years. This is really evident on recruiting centers/bigs. They seem to have to be 6'10"+ with expected shot blocking ability. Apparently, they no longer have to be athletic. For forwards, length is the most important aspect, followed by athleticism, and then offensive skill, it seems.
 
I remember Syracuse going after James Banks (now of GTech) and Jessie Govan. Either one would be nice to have and getting 30 mpg here. For whatever reasons they went elsewhere.
 
Answer this honestly...if you’re a center, would you come here? Cuz I wouldn’t.
 
OrangeDW said:
NBA wise I look at our 2009-2014 teams and see:

2009 - NBA: Flynn(6th pick), Onuaku, Rautins, Joseph. Also had stud recruits and productive players: Harris, Devendorf

2010- NBA: Johnson(4th pick), Rautins, Onuaku, Joseph, Southerland.

2011- NBA: Waiters(4th pick), Melo, Southerland, Joseph

2012- NBA: Waiters (4th pick), MCW(lottery pick), Melo, Southerland, Joseph, Christmas

2013 - NBA: MCW(lottery pick), Southerland, Christmas, Grant

2014 - NBA: Ennis, Grant, Christmas, Gbinije

2015, 2016, and 2017 featured 3, 3, and 2 NBA guys respectively. 2018 - 0 so far, and Battle would appear to be the only guy with a decent chance.

Whether it’s recruiting, player development, or both - we haven’t been as talented.

Those 2009-2014 teams all had between 4-6 NBA players on it, 2009-2013 all had a lottery pick and 2009-2012 all had a top 6 pick.

I think we’re still getting guys similar to Triche, Scoop, Jackson, Fair, etc. - the solid college players and solid recruits - and recruiting wise we’re still getting guys like Southerland, Joseph, etc. They’re just not developing into NBA guys lately.

We haven’t had a Flynn, Waiters, MCW, or Wes level player or recruits like Melo and Harris though in awhile.

Those 2009-2014 teams had a nice mix of top level talent, and depth. We were really clicking on all cylinders as a program IMO. NCAA messed it up. We’ll see if we can get back to it.
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Recruiting started to drop off right around the time that word leaked the NCAA was going to drop the ban hammer on us. Scholarship reductions and recruiting restrictions followed.

Coincidence?
 
SUOrangeSU said:
Answer this honestly...if you’re a center, would you come here? Cuz I wouldn’t.
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Definitely...if I’m good, who’s going to take any minutes from me. I’d be guaranteed 30 plus a game unless I was in foul trouble.
 
OrangeDW said:
Yes. It’s a strong b-ball program where a good center could potentially come right in and play 30 minutes per game.

Fab Melo and Rakeem Christmas came here and did well.
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But what do you see the centers doing NOW? They (attempt to) set picks up high, and maybe
attempt to roll, but they are not fed the ball. Aside from Sidibe against Pitt last year, the
center's seemingly only way to get the ball is to get it off the glass. If I'm a 5* center, who can
score, reb, and maybe has other skills (range, passing), I'm booking my one year stop on
the way to the NBA at a school and feeds the post, and allows me some freedom to do other
things. Whatever you say about JB, he has a lower tolerance for turnovers than a lot of guys,
and everything that goes along with him is not worth the trouble for a 1 or 2 year guy. The
remaining center recruits are going to have flaws, but I don't think they're best addressed by
turning them into robo-screeners.

Kev
 
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