Recruiting has taken a hit

[IthacaMatt]

No one's saying we're doomed, so please save the strawman posts. We have two 4-stars (G/SF) coming in, a developmental big and the NYS scoring record-holder. We're still getting good players, although we're not competing as well for elite (or even 4-star) centers and (p) forwards as we used to (our last 5-star big was 5 years ago). That's where the issue is. We're targeting lower-rated players and falling below ACC competition for front line talent, recently even losing out to MM's. Some of us are trying to figure that out without panicking or overstating the issue (no offense).

I think this is a legitimate take. Then factor in that most anticipate JB coaching until Buddy graduates, when JB will be 76, I believe.

If the goal is to get him one more championship before he retires, well, there's 3 years left, and we didn't land any big fish in either of the last 2 classes. You need at least 1 NBA player on your roster, and preferably 2 or 3, if you really want to win a championship.

We haven't had many guys of that caliber these past few years. The ones who looked promising didn't seem to stay around long enough to really become true stars.

 

[Mchandl8]

I think RF2044, kcsu and cuse#1 should form the new coaching staff. See how easy it is to get great talent from all over the country into your program.

If you describe someone or something as a lame duck, you are critical of them because they are not successful and need to be helped a lot. JB and this program are not that.

I get you want young, effective recruiters because you believe they will be able to bring in top ten recruits or better. I disagree. We have three very good recruiters on the road bringing in the best players they can. There is room for a fourth. I wonder if there are any past players great ones who would be interested in the job? Someone like a Derrick Coleman or John Wallace, All Americans who are in the top ten players for SU. Or maybe you forgot who these guys are? Of course whether they'd be interested for a specified sum is another topic.

Did you ever think that there are so many great, schools creating so much parity now that top ten fickle recruits have their pick. They feel if it's Virginia, Duke, Kentucky, Gonzaga, Tennessee, Michigan, Houston, Michigan St., Va Tech, North Carolina, Wisconsin, Purdue, Iowa St., Nevada, Louisville, Texas Tech, Kansas, Marquette, LSU, Villanova, Auburn, Iowa, Buffalo or Maryland or Syracuse they know where they're going and will commit or at the last second de-commit.

It was many things, IMHO, that changed the landscape of recruiting for us but mostly NCAA sanctions, as Orange Extreme says, that changed or put questions in recruits minds and the loss of recruiters like Weaver, whatever. It takes time for those sanctions to become complete and be lost in the minds of up – coming recruits all the while trying to maintain a winning record each year and making the tournament with what you have for players. All of the above had an effect on why we were not currently picking up top 10 – 20 caliber recruits like we were in the 80's which was when we had one of the best programs in the country for the decade. If you'd like the records I'll be glad to provide them.

In general, if you look at our record from the time Jim Boeheim began coaching the team in 1976, it is an amazing run and to disparage it seems wrong. It's like you want a 30 – 5 team every year or better. We're spoiled by success. We don't understand good or fair we expect very good or great. It is what it is.

Get out there and recruit, coach and we'll look at your record in 20 years and see how you did – if you're still here. GOSU

The classic argument of “if you think Boeheim’s so bad why don’t you coach?” The quality of recruiting has no doubt diminished over the last bunch of years. It’s like the frog that gets in the pot while it’s still cool, then you boil it and the frog stays in and dies because it doesn’t notice it’s getting hotter and hotter. Now while I’m sure someone will respond thinking I’m claiming SU is dying and done forever, I’m not. We are reverting back to NIT/Bubble quality. With Boeheim we’ll never be bad, but it’s looking more likely that we won’t be great again either. Someone mentioned earlier that Calipari only has one title at Kentucky since he’s been there... but he’s also got consistently better teams than Cuse... meaning I’d take consistent top 25, top 10 teams over bubble teams, even if those bubble teams occasionally make a big run. Someone mentioned Villanova as a team that gets 4 year guys and is consistently really good... that’s great, if we were doing that I’d have no complaints. Fact is, we’re not. Syracuse’s prestige is higher than the quality of our recruiting for the last bunch of years.

 

[General Joe]

Recruiting seems to be a problem and gradually has been getting worse just the last couple of years. It seems to me that definitely Hopkins leaving had an effect on that. you know Jim boeheim is getting older and who knows if he is putting his all in recruiting I don't really believe that but I'm not there so who knows. I think it's more the assistant coaches, we just don't have a Troy Weaver type that was really good at getting those elite guys, I mean just a few years ago we were getting the one and dones just about every year and now we can barely get a top 100 player. don't get me wrong we're still getting good players but it's just we're not getting nowhere near the quality we were getting just a few years ago. In the offseason I think we need to address that. either let one of these guys go and get like I said a troy Weaver assistant coach that is known for his recruiting prowess because I got to be honest these guys we got now I'm not sure which one is the weak Link in the chain but just not getting it done. I mean the only thing that is working against us getting big time talent is the weather, everything else are all a plus! we got the facilities, we got the potential for big Time crowds, we got a Hall of Fame coach and play in one of or the best conference in America. I know I'm not the only one that has noticed this so I'm wondering what other people's take on the recruiting or lack thereof ? thank you.

I think JB is winding down. He doesnt recruit with the same vigor he once did. He has seemed to leave it 95% to his assistant coaches. I read a article of his last year and he said he did 12-18 recruiting trips the prior year and the interview insinuated that was extremely low. JB mentioned how great his staff recruits. Now he is a HOF coach and was coming off a Final Four so he certainly can so it his way. But while other coaches are doin 10 trips per month he is doing 1 or 2. Seems as if its pretty low. To be clear perhaps its the same as he always has, but i see Ewing, coach K and that UCONN coach ALWays at high school bball games recruiting. Again JB can do it his way but frankly i thought he would be ratcheting it up knowing he has only 4 to 6 more years. How many Isaiah Stewart High school gMes did JB attend?????????????? I know Hop was in 3x atleast last year alone when at Washington

 

[General Joe]

Have followed recruiting VERY closely since the 80s. We are NOT even being mentioned with top recruitsat the level we were in the past. Need apoint guard?? Never a serious sniff at Cole Anthony from NYC. Anyone that points to Bazely, misses the point that he fell in Griff's lap (w/a Moyer assist) after committing elsewhere. That elsewhere had the Matta thingy going on. Plus, he never showed up. IS and TB were in our backyard. Should have been there so much that the car was on auto pilot when they were in Rochester. So, no we have not landed Melo, Owens, Pearl type. They only come along every so often for us. But it seems now we won't have another until some new longer term certainty comes to the hill.

I think alot of people on here intentionally make excuses for any failings JB or Syracuse has. You ate spot on! Elite recruits ESPECIALLY bigs just arent viewing us the way they did in the past. It seems we are getting more developmental bigs nowadays when we are so close to being a championship type team if we just had a big smh. Very frustrating

 

[pfister1]

Recruiting started to drop off right around the time that word leaked the NCAA was going to drop the ban hammer on us. Scholarship reductions and recruiting restrictions followed.

Coincidence?

Stop saying that!!

 

[pfister1]

But what do you see the centers doing NOW? They (attempt to) set picks up high, and maybe
attempt to roll, but they are not fed the ball.

Kev

Do you really think a top center looks at how we utilize Pascal Chuckwu who can barely catch the ball and says, "They don't use their centers on offense, and if I go there, they won't use me."

Please!!

 

[Trueblue25]

Big man recruiting has taken a long sustained hit.

The rest is fine. Girard had 30+ legitimate p5 offers for god sakes. Toss the stars aside and watch him play. Same with Goodine, easily a top 60 player.

 

[Cuse#1]

2 4 7 keeps history on this.

Scoop was outside the top 50 and so was Jackson. Cooney wasn’t even top 100.

I’ll give you Rank, but those other guys we didn’t really win a lot of regular season games with.

Arinze
Rautins
Triche
Jackson
Scoop
Wes before he came to cuse
Kris Joseph


The guys above all ranked below or near where everyone we are recruiting now is ranked. People need to stop throwing around things that aren’t true. It’s not nearly as bad as people think.

and it's true I know where all those guys were ranked I follow recruiting very closely, most of those guys were either lower top 100 guys or 3stars and those guys played very well together which came to us being a very good team for a year or two but that doesn't mean that we have nothing to worry about just because those guys weren't highly-recruited and we played at a very high level. most of the time it doesn't work out that way. a lot of the guys we've gotten recently have been pretty much what the recruiting Services said they were or worse and it's getting worse as of late. we go from every year getting a guy in the first round after he leaves usually every year getting a McDonald's All-American or very close to that to now not even getting close to getting a guy at that level so how can you say that recruiting hasn't takin a hit. now it's not a huge hit but it's becoming noticeable And obviously other people have noticed it as well. now hopefully you know next year will take a turn for the better and I want that just as much or more than anybody. now it either Falls on boeheim or the assistant coaches or a little bit of both. I hope they take some steps to fixing that at some point cuz if not things just stay the same.

 

[Cusefan0307]

and it's true I know where all those guys were ranked I follow recruiting very closely, most of those guys were either lower top 100 guys or 3stars and those guys played very well together which came to us being a very good team for a year or two but that doesn't mean that we have nothing to worry about just because those guys weren't highly-recruited and we played at a very high level. most of the time it doesn't work out that way. a lot of the guys we've gotten recently have been pretty much what the recruiting Services said they were or worse and it's getting worse as of late. we go from every year getting a guy in the first round after he leaves usually every year getting a McDonald's All-American or very close to that to now not even getting close to getting a guy at that level so how can you say that recruiting hasn't takin a hit. now it's not a huge hit but it's becoming noticeable And obviously other people have noticed it as well. now hopefully you know next year will take a turn for the better and I want that just as much or more than anybody. now it either Falls on boeheim or the assistant coaches or a little bit of both. I hope they take some steps to fixing that at some point cuz if not things just stay the same.

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

 

[Cuse#1]

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

I'm not talking about those guys in the 2019 class I haven't seen them in action yet
Of course there's going to be some guys that played better or worse than the recruiting ranking. For the most part I was saying. If we're going to critique every single guy will this argument will never end.
As for Buddy boeheim he's a pure shooter and a coach's kid so I'm not surprised that he's playing better than his low expectations as a freshman

 

[orangecuse]

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

Why do think this is the case? This has been a significant area of need the past few cycles, with a lot of opportunity for better regarded bigs (especially 5's) to get a ton of PT here, but we seemingly keep missing out on our 'main' targets.

 

[Cuse#1]

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

I will look at the offers of a particular player more than I will the Stars rating of that players plus look at their film as well with the level of competition they're playing
against as well.

 

[Cuse#1]

OH come on. I think you're looking directly at lists and that's it just like a lot of other posters.

Buddy is worse or as good as a 3 star guy?

Guerrier is a top 50 player. You keep ignoring that. Like Brissett he was ranked lower because of his Canadian roots and not playing in the EYBL.

The area we are struggling at recruiting is bigs.

Our struggle with recruiting Bigs goes without saying. That's by far the biggest issue.

 

[BillSU]

Stop saying that!!

He's absolutely correct.

 

[Briancuse]

Do you really think a top center looks at how we utilize Pascal Chuckwu who can barely catch the ball and says, "They don't use their centers on offense, and if I go there, they won't use me."

Please!!

I don't know how much a top center is watching to know pcs talent level.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

Honestly, I wouldn't come here if I was a top big. I can't blame them.

 

[Ragman2000]

Honestly, I wouldn't come here if I was a top big. I can't blame them.

Good thing you're not a top big.

 

[orangecuse]

Honestly, I wouldn't come here if I was a top big. I can't blame them.

Why? It's a position of dire need, and opportunity galore. It's peculiar to say the least our swing and misses on all of our seemingly 'main' targets at the 5 spot the past few recruiting cycles. I watched quite of few UK games the past few weeks, Richardson (a guy i think we recruited a couple cycles or so ago) does nothing at UK other than keeping the pine warm.

 

[BillSU]

kcsu, I know what JB expects.

I was a freshman when he was a walk on and am a personal friend. I have been following this team since 1963 and became the spotter for the official scorer at Manley in my sophomore year in '64.

After I graduated and moved to CT, Jim became the HC. When SU traveled to CT to play UCONN another friend and fellow graduate and I who both lived in CT a half hour from the airport would meet the team plane at BDL at around 3 P.M . The team would go to the Marriott and he would get in the car and begin a recruiting trip telling us were he needed to go. After the trip we'd eat dinner together talk BB and later take Jim back to rejoin the team at 3 A.M.

This happened every time he came - we'd meet him and go to the games where he'd look at recruits. It was very interesting to hear what he'd say about each one. He'd look at the highest rated recruits available each year but sometimes we wouldn't go due to that years lack of talent in the state. He was a determined, hard working coach who usually got what he we went after. There were no assistants with him on our excursions to various schools, public and private.

He is a kind, courteous individual keeping his friends close - his peer coaches closer. Pitino is one of his closest.

The discussion about BIGS is an interesting one.

All the time Tom, my friend Jim and I were involved in recruiting, BIGS to Jim were 6' 8", 6" 9", 6'10" with long wingspans; forwards to compliment his "Syracuse Zone" which developed into one which many coaches at first would not have anything to do with. As years rolled by and many wins followed many coaches complimented and some copied what Jim was doing with his version of a 2 -3 because it was so successful. To be quite honest I don't know what to say about his recruiting of BIGS and never had a conversation with him or heard him talk about recruiting just a Center. I realize as should everyone except for the one and dones, players develop and hone their skills preferably taught by a great player ahead of them and the coaching staff.

What I do know is, as Jim progressed, he was able to attract players who weren't exactly the traditional centers you'd think of today. The game has changed. 7'0 260 players weren't that plentiful back in the days we were helping Jim and he was having so much good luck with 6' 8" - 9, 10 players, plus point guards that seemed to be drawn to SU but they weren't - Jim spent hours and hours attracting them and it paid off with guards who were great and could distribute the ball to those who could shoot.

An example of what I am talking about are these players. First centers I am familiar with but perhaps todays younger fans are not. The best centers I saw play for JB were:

Rousevelt Bouie 6' 11" 235 1977 - 80 started 4 years, 1560 PTS, 987 RB, 327 BLK 84% FT shooter, NBA played in Italy for 13 Yrs. ALL CENTURY TEAM SU, # Retired
Rony Seikaly 6' 10" 235 1984 - 88 - took til JR yr to develop 1716 PTS, 1094 RB, 319 BLK, NBA Heat 11 Yrs ALL CENTURY TEAM SU, # Retired

Point guards are not the subject of the discussion but I thought I'd add it as a comparison to Howard and more recent guards.
Best point guards:

Sherman Douglas 6' 165 1985 - 89 2060 PTS, 235 STLS, 960 AST #1 SU all time, 14.9 PPG, NBA Heat 12 Yrs ALCENTURY TEAM, # Retired
Dave Bing 6' 3" 180 1963 - 66 - 1883 PTS, 786 REBS, 185 AST, 28.4 PPG SR YR best all time/25.7 PPG @ SU, NBA Detroit 12 seasons, HOF, ALLCENTURY TEAM SU, # Retired
GOSU

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Good thing you're not a top big.

Maybe he is. He's not on the roster, or committed

 

[kcsu]

kcsu, I know what JB expects.

I was a freshman when he was a walk on and am a personal friend. I have been following this team since 1963 and became the spotter for the official scorer at Manley in my sophomore year in '64.

After I graduated and moved to CT, Jim became the HC. When SU traveled to CT to play UCONN another friend and fellow graduate and I who both lived in CT a half hour from the airport would meet the team plane at BDL at around 3 P.M . The team would go to the Marriott and he would get in the car and begin a recruiting trip telling us were he needed to go. After the trip we'd eat dinner together talk BB and later take Jim back to rejoin the team at 3 A.M.

This happened every time he came - we'd meet him and go to the games where he'd look at recruits. It was very interesting to hear what he'd say about each one. He'd look at the highest rated recruits available each year but sometimes we wouldn't go due to that years lack of talent in the state. He was a determined, hard working coach who usually got what he we went after. There were no assistants with him on our excursions to various schools, public and private.

He is a kind, courteous individual keeping his friends close - his peer coaches closer. Pitino is one of his closest.

The discussion about BIGS is an interesting one.

All the time Tom, my friend Jim and I were involved in recruiting, BIGS to Jim were 6' 8", 6" 9", 6'10" with long wingspans; forwards to compliment his "Syracuse Zone" which developed into one which many coaches at first would not have anything to do with. As years rolled by and many wins followed many coaches complimented and some copied what Jim was doing with his version of a 2 -3 because it was so successful. To be quite honest I don't know what to say about his recruiting of BIGS and never had a conversation with him or heard him talk about recruiting just a Center. I do know as should everyone except for the one and dones, players develop and hone their skills preferably taught by a great player ahead of them and the coaching staff.

What I do know is, as Jim progressed, he was able to attract players who weren't exactly the traditional centers you'd think of today. 7'0 260 players weren't that plentiful back in the days we were helping Jim and he was having so much good luck with 6' 8" - 9, 10 players, plus point guards that seemed to be drawn to SU but they weren't - Jim spent hours and hours attracting them and it paid off with guards who were great and could distribute the ball to those who could shoot.

An example of what I am talking about are these players. First centers I am familiar with but perhaps todays younger fans are not. The best centers I saw play for JB were:

Rousevelt Bouie 6' 11" 235 1977 - 80 started 4 years, 1560 PTS, 987 RB, 327 BLK 84% FT shooter
Rony Seikaly 6' 10" 235 1984 - 88 - took til JR yr to develop 1716 PTS, 1094 RB, 319 BLK

Point guards are not the subject of the discussion but I thought I'd add it as a comparison to Howard and more recent guards.
Best point guards:

Sherman Douglas 6' 165 1985 - 89 2060 PTS, 235 STLS, 960 AST #1 SU all time, 14.9 PPG
Dave Bing 6' 3" 180 1963 - 66 - 1883 PTS, 786 REBS, 185 AST, 28.4 PPG SR YR best all time/25.7 PPG @ SU

You may have driven JB to my house.

 

[BillSU]

You may have driven JB to my house.

Maybe - live in Faifield or Stamford/ We covered a lot of ground.

 

[kcsu]

Maybe - live in Faifield or Stamford/ We covered a lot of ground.

No i was in NY.

 

[moqui]

Big man recruiting has taken a long sustained hit.

*sigh*
4 or 5 star bigs (pf or c, 6-9 or taller) successfully recruited this decade
2011-12 mcd aa fab melo
2012-15 mcd aa rak christmas
2013-17 mcd aa dajuan coleman
2015 top 20 chris mccullough
2016-17 top 100 tyler lydon
2016 top 100 moustapha diagne
2017 top 100, #9 center tristan thompson
2017-19 top 100, #10 center pascal chukwu

you can be bummed about this one year (i'm not because i think jba is going to be very good) and you can be bummed about thomas bryant. but you cannot make up stories about "long, sustained" hits when the facts say otherwise

 

[maxxyz]

Isn’t it time to lock this thread?