Red opens up about new Syracuse players:

[OttoinGrotto]

Yep, and everyone but Fennell are here. I hope these guys understand that they are on a mission to save Red's job and do something big. Fennell is getting some great experience. I can't wait to see this team play their first game together.

And Diawara.

 

[orangefog]

And Diawara.

Ah yes, hopefully he gets on campus ASAP, because every minute is important for him for his development.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think the disconnect is the definition of what you mean by “low post player.” It’s pretty rare these days for any team to have a guy like Ewing or Abdul Jabbar who would just put their butt on you and make turn around jump shots over you all day long.

Edey is the exception not the rule. Most big men, even dominant ones, are rim runners, getting out in transition, or even shooting threes for their points.

Looking at the Final Four teams this season, none of them had a big man as their go to scorer. Duke was the only team with a center in their top5 in scoring. On the other hand, all four were led in scoring by three point shooters.

Having a post scorer is not essential for success.

That said, yes, it’s sweet to have a player who you can get the ball in the post and expect a high percentage scoring opportunity every time down the court. But it’s just as sweet to have a point guard who can get to the basket every play, or a high percentage three point shooter who can create their own shot… You are way too focused on one way to score.

This team has all the talent needed to score at a high rate, including post players, even if they aren’t really necessary.

You keep moving the goal posts.

The original point was, "do we have any holes in our game".

Answer: "Yes, we lack a low post scorer."

You say the modern game doesn't work that way.

I showed you how almost all the good teams have that option.

You said, ok, but how about at the end of games.

I give you a half dozen guys from recent Final Fours.

Now, you're saying, ok, but they're not dominant guys like Abdul Jabbar.

I mean, come on, man.

Not having anyone who plays with their back to the basket is a short coming, just like having a lack of ball handling, rebounding or 3 point shooting.

It limits your options on offense, just like not having a rim protector changes your defense. Hopefully Kyle can show what he did at his original school and offer us that. Or maybe Sadiq White will turn into that guy.

I think Freeman is going to play farther from the basket than than what I'm looking for.

 

[Orangezoo]

You keep moving the goal posts.

The original point was, "do we have any holes in our game".

Answer: "Yes, we lack a low post scorer."

You say the modern game doesn't work that way.

I showed you how almost all the good teams have that option.

You said, ok, but how about at the end of games.

I give you a half dozen guys from recent Final Fours.

Now, you're saying, ok, but they're not dominant guys like Abdul Jabbar.

I mean, come on, man.

Not having anyone who plays with their back to the basket is a short coming, just like having a lack of ball handling, rebounding or 3 point shooting.

It limits your options on offense, just like not having a rim protector changes your defense. Hopefully Kyle can show what he did at his original school and offer us that. Or maybe Sadiq White will turn into that guy.

I think Freeman is going to play farther from the basket than than what I'm looking for.

You are trying to hard to convert the players you have been referring to into the nostalgic driven image you are hanging onto. Outside of Edey and to a lesser extend Clingan, these teams aren’t playing through and utilizing the post the way you are locked in on. If you get 7 possessions a game where a forward or center goes up with a traditional back to the basket move you are on the high side.

Defense, rebounding , good hands and ability to finish above the rim are what nearly all these traditional bigs you point to are contributing. The elite are the Edey like unicorns of today or those who also step out and hit the 3 at a solid clip.

 

[Niastri]

You keep moving the goal posts.

The original point was, "do we have any holes in our game".

Answer: "Yes, we lack a low post scorer."

You say the modern game doesn't work that way.

I showed you how almost all the good teams have that option.

You said, ok, but how about at the end of games.

I give you a half dozen guys from recent Final Fours.

Now, you're saying, ok, but they're not dominant guys like Abdul Jabbar.

I mean, come on, man.

Not having anyone who plays with their back to the basket is a short coming, just like having a lack of ball handling, rebounding or 3 point shooting.

It limits your options on offense, just like not having a rim protector changes your defense. Hopefully Kyle can show what he did at his original school and offer us that. Or maybe Sadiq White will turn into that guy.

I think Freeman is going to play farther from the basket than than what I'm looking for.

No goal posts have moved… You are responding to posts from two different people.

I was just pointing out that true back to the basket post players are extremely rare these days, and not as critical to team success as you think.

Our disagreement is at least partially semantics.

EDIT: My referencing of Ewing and Abdul Jabbar was about style, not dominance… Arinze Onuaku would be an aberration in this day and age as well.

 

[Niastri]

Zack Edey, Hunter Dickenson, Paulo Bancero, Drew Timme, Adama Sonogo and Donovan Clingan for UConn, there are so many recent examples.

Accounting to a lack of memory of his play style, I just watched Bancero highlights in the NCAA tournament. If you are suggesting you need good players to win in basketball, I agree. But he’s not nearly a post player, he’s merely tall.

In this highlight reel, he has more three pointers made than anything resembling traditional post play. In fact, other than a play where he faced up, took a player off the dribble then turned his back for a turnaround jumper, none of his first ten baskets are posts.

I think you are overestimating how many post players exist in college basketball. The three pointer has taken over everything. Even traditional big men.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Accounting to a lack of memory of his play style, I just watched Bancero highlights in the NCAA tournament. If you are suggesting you need good players to win in basketball, I agree. But he’s not nearly a post player, he’s merely tall.

In this highlight reel, he has more three pointers made than anything resembling traditional post play. In fact, other than a play where he faced up, took a player off the dribble then turned his back for a turnaround jumper, none of his first ten baskets are posts.

I think you are overestimating how many post players exist in college basketball. The three pointer has taken over everything. Even traditional big men.

Exactly. I just hate the commentary that we have to gameplan for a handful of elite bigs that we "may" run into if we make a final 4 run.

The odds of us running into an Edey or Hunter are 1 in 100 prob ever higher than that now because looking around the league or ACC these types of players are a dying breed. The odds of having to get by elite guards or 6'8-6'11 athletic and talented shooters in the frontcourt are more like 99 in 100 odds. You don't build rosters around the what if 1%.

*Fully acknowledge that we have sucked at building rosters for the last many years so don't throw that in my face.

 

[baggerbob]

I think the disconnect is the definition of what you mean by “low post player.” It’s pretty rare these days for any team to have a guy like Ewing or Abdul Jabbar who would just put their butt on you and make turn around jump shots over you all day long.

Edey is the exception not the rule. Most big men, even dominant ones, are rim runners, getting out in transition, or even shooting threes for their points.

Looking at the Final Four teams this season, none of them had a big man as their go to scorer. Duke was the only team with a center in their top5 in scoring. On the other hand, all four were led in scoring by three point shooters.

Having a post scorer is not essential for success.

That said, yes, it’s sweet to have a player who you can get the ball in the post and expect a high percentage scoring opportunity every time down the court. But it’s just as sweet to have a point guard who can get to the basket every play, or a high percentage three point shooter who can create their own shot… You are way too focused on one way to score.

This team has all the talent needed to score at a high rate, including post players, even if they aren’t really necessary.

Donnie has the talent to score inside and out against anyone.
And in practice with all the big men who can run and block shots, scoring in practice might be harder then games.
Last year there was no one on the team with the ability to challenge Donnie.

 

[OmahaCuse]

Donnie has the talent to score inside and out against anyone.
And in practice with all the big men who can run and block shots, scoring in practice might be harder then games.
Last year there was no one on the team with the ability to challenge Donnie.

Coaches need to force DF to work inside out this year, not stand around look for threes. Would like to see him move without the ball and maybe having a PG that can find him will help. We have plenty of guys this year who can shoot the three and DF should get 3/4 looks from 3 a game.

 

[Niastri]

Coaches need to force DF to work inside out this year, not stand around look for threes. Would like to see him move without the ball and maybe having a PG that can find him will help. We have plenty of guys this year who can shoot the three and DF should get 3/4 looks from 3 a game.

Putting Freeman out there with Kyle will help with that. Freeman will almost certainly be bigger than the second biggest opposing player. That should allow him to use his post skills more frequently. He also will be doubled a lot in that circumstance, which will result in open threes for our perimeter players and dunks for Kyle.

I can think of three offensive sets we should use frequently, to maximize our players skill sets. Freeman in the post is one of them, once he proves he can post up P4 power forwards at a high efficiency. After that, offense will start to look like easy mode.

Hopefully, we see Freeman in the post against every opponent in the first few minutes of the game. It will keep him in that mindset, and also force opposing teams to counter.

If teams figure out how to stop it, then we can switch to a steady diet of Starling isolation!

 

[M2MPrinciples]

Zack Edey, Hunter Dickenson, Paulo Bancero, Drew Timme, Adama Sonogo and Donovan Clingan for UConn, there are so many recent examples.

Agree on many of those guys but Dickinson only shot 56% on twos last year despite standing 7'2". He was a lot softer in the post than many hoped he'd be. I'd definitely put him below Sanogo, Edey and Clingan.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You are trying to hard to convert the players you have been referring to into the nostalgic driven image you are hanging onto. Outside of Edey and to a lesser extend Clingan, these teams aren’t playing through and utilizing the post the way you are locked in on. If you get 7 possessions a game where a forward or center goes up with a traditional back to the basket move you are on the high side.

Defense, rebounding , good hands and ability to finish above the rim are what nearly all these traditional bigs you point to are contributing. The elite are the Edey like unicorns of today or those who also step out and hit the 3 at a solid clip.

OK, one more time. It's not the WHOLE strategy. It's not the PRIMARY strategy.
It's a tool that every successful team has in the locker.

Just like every team should have a couple low post defenders who can protect the rim. Every team should have at least 2 or 3 capable 3 point shooters. Every team should have a secondary ball handler who can beat a press and set up his teammates for easier shots.

Every team should have a guy you can throw the ball to in the low post. It's not debatable. There are games every season, for every team, where they just aren't making their 3 point shots.

If you don't have enough shooters, defenders sag off a couple steps to take away the drive. What do you do when that happens?

Our offense only revived late last season when (1) Eddie was commanding double teams in the low post, (2) which opened up 3 point shooting for Chris Bell, who came back pretty well at the end of the season, (3) which then opened up the driving lanes for JJ.

Just like you don't shoot 3's on every possession, or you don't press on every possession, you won't throw it to the low post on every possession, either.

But if you don't have it as an option, you don't have a way to slow down another team's run. You can get run out of the gym, if you can't slow the game down and get to the line, or get a high probably shot in the low block.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Coaches need to force DF to work inside out this year, not stand around look for threes. Would like to see him move without the ball and maybe having a PG that can find him will help. We have plenty of guys this year who can shoot the three and DF should get 3/4 looks from 3 a game.

My beef with last year's offense was using Eddie as the pick man 25 feet from the basket. He isn't making that shot if you pass it to him. Donnie should have always been the high pick man, and not find himself hanging out on the wings looking for a jumper.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Agree on many of those guys but Dickinson only shot 56% on twos last year despite standing 7'2". He was a lot softer in the post than many hoped he'd be. I'd definitely put him below Sanogo, Edey and Clingan.

I agree. Dickinson didn't live up to expectations. But all the best teams in recent years have had a guy they could throw it down low to try to get a bucket to stop another team's run, or to get another team's big man in foul trouble. It's an essential part of the game.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Exactly. I just hate the commentary that we have to gameplan for a handful of elite bigs that we "may" run into if we make a final 4 run.

The odds of us running into an Edey or Hunter are 1 in 100 prob ever higher than that now because looking around the league or ACC these types of players are a dying breed. The odds of having to get by elite guards or 6'8-6'11 athletic and talented shooters in the frontcourt are more like 99 in 100 odds. You don't build rosters around the what if 1%.

*Fully acknowledge that we have sucked at building rosters for the last many years so don't throw that in my face.

Just a friendly reminder. Until last season, I don't think Syracuse has outrebounded its opponents on the year in at least 10 years. We get beat up inside year after year with stringbean guys who can't defend the low post.

Our record has been pretty awful for the last 10 years, but sure, we don't need no low post offense or defense. Everybody is Steph Curry these days.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I agree. Dickinson didn't live up to expectations. But all the best teams in recent years have had a guy they could throw it down low to try to get a bucket to stop another team's run, or to get another team's big man in foul trouble. It's an essential part of the game.

Florida's bigs did not post up. They were P&R bigs. Flagg was not a post player. He initiated from the wing or elbow. Virginia, Villanova, and Kansas all won recent titles on the back of perimeter play.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Just a friendly reminder. Until last season, I don't think Syracuse has outrebounded its opponents on the year in at least 10 years. We get beat up inside year after year with stringbean guys who can't defend the low post.

Our record has been pretty awful for the last 10 years, but sure, we don't need no low post offense or defense. Everybody is Steph Curry these days.

That's not what anyone's saying. The argument here is about a back to the basket big which are mostly dinosaurs these days.

 

[baggerbob]

That's not what anyone's saying. The argument here is about a back to the basket big which are mostly dinosaurs these days.

And unlike the last 10 we have a good amount of size on this team even in the guards, so we should be able to rebound.
We should be good rebounding on the offensive glass also.

 

[Orangezoo]

OK, one more time. It's not the WHOLE strategy. It's not the PRIMARY strategy.
It's a tool that every successful team has in the locker.

Just like every team should have a couple low post defenders who can protect the rim. Every team should have at least 2 or 3 capable 3 point shooters. Every team should have a secondary ball handler who can beat a press and set up his teammates for easier shots.

Every team should have a guy you can throw the ball to in the low post. It's not debatable. There are games every season, for every team, where they just aren't making their 3 point shots.

If you don't have enough shooters, defenders sag off a couple steps to take away the drive. What do you do when that happens?

Our offense only revived late last season when (1) Eddie was commanding double teams in the low post, (2) which opened up 3 point shooting for Chris Bell, who came back pretty well at the end of the season, (3) which then opened up the driving lanes for JJ.

Just like you don't shoot 3's on every possession, or you don't press on every possession, you won't throw it to the low post on every possession, either.

But if you don't have it as an option, you don't have a way to slow down another team's run. You can get run out of the gym, if you can't slow the game down and get to the line, or get a high probably shot in the low block.

It’s rarely a strategy for teams these days at all. That’s the point. Back to the basket bigs are rare and are no longer a necessity to win in college hoops. Most of these types that do still exist end up similar to Eddie where their weaknesses on defense or in an uptempo system mean you give up more than you get.

Outside the very few exceptions most teams use their bigs in screening action and as defensive minded players and glass cleaners. They are used with their backs to the basket no more than occasional moments situationally, something any big might be asked to do a few times a game but it’s not really even a strategy anymore.

Other guys you have mentioned were used more in this manner because they are extremely unique and dominant in terms of being a complete mismatch against anyone. That’s not helping your point at all given they are the exception.

Based on the tape - Kyle is more than capable of being posted up here and there same with Donnie when a matchup allows for it but otherwise there is no reason to have a back to the basket big for those moments instead.

 

[Niastri]

And unlike the last 10 we have a good amount of size on this team even in the guards, so we should be able to rebound.
We should be good rebounding on the offensive glass also.

Donnie Freeman didn’t qualify because of his injury, but his 31.3 defensive rebounding percentage last season would have placed him third in dreb% last season. He actually would have been top50 all time with that percentage. (They’ve been tracking it since 2009.)

And it wasn’t empty “beating up cupcakes” statistics either, Freeman had great rebounding games against Texas Tech, Florida State and Notre Dame before going out with his injury.

Kyle isn’t quite the rebounder, but his job at UCLA seemed to be to block shots more than rebounding. Still, his 13.5% at UCLA wasn’t terrible, and he’s a better offensive rebounder than defensive. We’re definitely trading down on rebounding with Lampkin being replaced by Kyle.

My biggest hope in sustaining decent rebounding (and interior defense in general) is that we’ve replaced guys like Davis, Majstorovic and Lucas Taylor with guys that are taller and bouncier in Souare, Betsey, Tiefing and White.

But it all comes back to Freeman. So much rides on Freeman being healthy and excellent. On offense, defense and rebounding.

We’ve had so many hyped players come through and disappoint the last decade, we’re due for one to work out, and I think it will be Freeman this year.

 

[Niastri]

My beef with last year's offense was using Eddie as the pick man 25 feet from the basket. He isn't making that shot if you pass it to him. Donnie should have always been the high pick man, and not find himself hanging out on the wings looking for a jumper.

I agree, having Lampkin constantly in the pick and roll wasn’t the best use of his talents. He set good picks, but you could afford to hedge off him defensively because he wasn’t a threat to hit the three. You had to respect his passing, but backing off him when he’s out by the three point arc makes him too easy to defend. And he was slow enough that if he crashed to the rim, defenses could recover in time. I wanted him posting up constantly, usually against guys 50lbs lighter. Red didn’t agree for most of the year. Lampkin was way underused, in my opinion.

C’est la vie.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Florida's bigs did not post up. They were P&R bigs. Flagg was not a post player. He initiated from the wing or elbow. Virginia, Villanova, and Kansas all won recent titles on the back of perimeter play.

Florida State's do. Miami, too. And UNC. And Thomas Sorber at Georgetown last year. And Viktor Lakin from Clemson. They both ate us alive inside and we lost.

Do you want to lose an extra 5 or 6 games a year from ignoring a necessary component of a complete team?

Yes, guards win titles, but guards have games they miss their shots, and then what do you do? You are saying we don't need Plan B. That's not how a coach should think, if he wants to keep his job.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Florida State's do. Miami, too. And UNC. And Thomas Sorber at Georgetown last year. And Viktor Lakin from Clemson. They both ate us alive inside and we lost.

Do you want to lose an extra 5 or 6 games a year from ignoring a necessary component of a complete team?

Yes, guards win titles, but guards have games they miss their shots, and then what do you do? You are saying we don't need Plan B. That's not how a coach should think, if he wants to keep his job.

Clemson is the exception in the ACC. We have Kyle who’s supposed to be a great defensive presence.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Donnie has the talent to score inside and out against anyone.
And in practice with all the big men who can run and block shots, scoring in practice might be harder then games.
Last year there was no one on the team with the ability to challenge Donnie.

That last line really hit home for me. Eddie would not even try to protect the rim. No way Naheem or Petar either. Maybe you could say Davis but he was giving up a ton of height on Donnie.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Just a friendly reminder. Until last season, I don't think Syracuse has outrebounded its opponents on the year in at least 10 years. We get beat up inside year after year with stringbean guys who can't defend the low post.

Our record has been pretty awful for the last 10 years, but sure, we don't need no low post offense or defense. Everybody is Steph Curry these days.

I would argue the first 7 years was because of the zone not operating the way it should and having the athleticism it needed and the last 3 years was a mixed bag of injuries and Jesse Edwards and Maliq bouncing. Not to mention a few guys like Chris Bell allergic to rebounding.