Red

[Jack_Ball]

I will say there is a difference in that we are cratering hard to bottom. Dino was in year 5 and 6, and had been stagnant for a few years. I’m Sure JW has the pulse of the boosters, and season ticket holders and will do the right thing. I truly think the cost of keeping him another year is greater than getting rid of him but I have no inside knowledge. What would happen if we had 5k less season ticket holders, what would they do to the bottom line.

My guesstimate calculation is between $8-10M

 

[RF2044]

Dino was stagnant; Red is basketball GRob and we will be lucky to make the ACC Tournament. The school will be hemorrhaging huge amounts of attendance dollars from killing the golden goose. Canning Red is far cheaper than retaining him in the long run. How long, and how much financial pain the admins are willing to deal with up front, is the question.

Folks need to remember that the pitchforks are not out because of mediocrity. The program is all but destroyed. This is 2000s football level bad.

All true. The apathy is real.

Would be worse if he's brought back next year. I believe that he will be [barring an epic collapse this year, which certainly could happen].

 

[Fly Rodder]

Folks need to remember that the pitchforks are not out because of mediocrity. The program is all but destroyed.

Also some people on here can rationalize that JAB is responsible for the first 8 years of decline and Red only for this season and some of last season ... but that's not the perception of the majority of the fans as indicated by the cratering attendance and interest in SU basketball.

 

[jdubs30]

If Kiyan decommitted I think he’d be let go.

Either way i feel terrible for Red for how this will end. I’m sure he feels largely responsible for putting us in this place

 

[Scott11]

The biggest question i have regarding Red is this. His talent evaluation in the portal this year was so poor, how can we trust him to evaluate talent to rebuild next year?

 

[kcsu]

It’s not the same because the money comes from different budgets. And again, SU has been preparing to fund the direct student payments for quite some time now.

With your business experience you know how this works. Cuts can be made in one area while budgets increase in another. Happens every day.

I do understand that but all of what I'm talking about based on what I have been told are expenses that come specifically out of the athletic department budget. Which means that regardless of the line item it all rolls up to the budget of the department not the general fund. If Red were to be fired i bet that Donors would be asked to contribute to his severance the staff's severance and maybe the next coach's compensation package. So, the pool of funds and boosters who support SU sports including NIL would most likely be asked to support his buyout.
Last point for me. I want everyone to know that based on what i have seen this year I don't think Red is the right person to be the head coach at SU. He has failed on multiple fronts, and I think can do better.
So I'm not supporting a third year for Red based on his coaching acumen. Rather I'm saying that I believe he will get a third year for other reasons. Primarily financial reasons. Not because he deserves it.

 

[kcsu]

The biggest question i have regarding Red is this. His talent evaluation in the portal this year was so poor, how can we trust him to evaluate talent to rebuild next year?

He won't be making the decision alone.

 

[FrancoPizza]

If Kiyan decommitted I think he’d be let go.

It would be incredibly nearsighted if a decision tipping point is a top 50 recruit.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Either way i feel terrible for Red for how this will end. I’m sure he feels largely responsible for putting us in this place

Same here. Red is one of my favorite former players.

I think it's best for all if it ends quickly; bringing him back next year when he has almost zero chance for success even if he improves dramatically would be extremely painful for him... and everyone that cares even a tiny bit about the program.

 

[Jasoncuse]

It's tough to see how the school can rationalize bringing him back and expect any kind of fan support next year. Look at the Dome, nobody is there, it's a morgue and you have to believe concessions, parking, merch sales have plumetted. They can look at the 19K tickets sold and be "ok" there, but the ancillary revenues, experience and perception are not there. Next year, 19K is going to be 12K, with further trickle down.

He's a lame duck coach, it's obvious, and you can't just keep that for another year to give him a chance to coach 3 total. The program is not competitive, relevant or close to the standards of it's history. Cut your losses before it gets even worse and tougher to climb back from. If JB has an issue with it or will make a commotion, so be it. He built this thing, but he's likely the major reason we have seen the complete and utter destruction of it.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Next year, 19K is going to be 12K, with further trickle down.

He's a lame duck coach, it's obvious, and you can't just keep that for another year to give him a chance to coach 3 total. The program is not competitive, relevant or close to the standards of it's history. Cut your losses before it gets even worse and tougher to climb back from. If JB has an issue with it or will make a commotion, so be it. He built this thing, but he's likely the major reason we have seen the complete and utter destruction of it.

If they only lose 7k that would be impressive. A not-insignificant number of seasons are bought by ticket brokers who make their money on a handful of big conference games and special non-cons. Those people aren't making decisions about dropping $10-30k on season tickets based on their opinion of the coaching staff. They make those decisions on losing their $10-20k.

 

[Cuse12]

I will preface this post with saying, I do not know anything other then what I read here, so this post is based off of comments shared here.

The sentiments shared are that we are stuck between a rock and a hard place with Red’s contract. Apparently there is potentially guaranteed money and we would have to buy his contract out, and little ole Syracuse just can’t afford such a thing. Firstly, if that’s the case what a horrible negotiation on cuse’s part. We weren’t competing with a single other power school in the country for Red, why would we guarantee anything? What leg does Red have to stand on to counter that? I digress.

So let’s say that’s the case, and we assume Reds making $2M a year (guessing). Make it make sense that we are okay with losing 2-3x coaches salary (or more) in revenue this year in just stadium sales. (Not counting apparel sale losses etc.) So that’s okay because we don’t have to buy out the contract for maybe half that? (Again all a guess).

Easy math, average seat price is $40 when we are “good”, if we lose 10k tix sales a game due to lack of performance. 10 home games (easy math again) and that’s $4M right there, then add on food/drink sales. That’s just 10 games for easy math.

Am I completely off base here? Make me eat crow if what I am saying makes no sense. It just seems odd that we would be okay with losing that much revenue this year and next (we won’t have fans back until the team proves it so it could take till late January next year to even start grabbing decent crowds, we are already giving up millions in revenue if we continue down this path for next season)

 

[shu 49]

I do understand that but all of what I'm talking about based on what I have been told are expenses that come specifically out of the athletic department budget. Which means that regardless of the line item it all rolls up to the budget of the department not the general fund. If Red were to be fired i bet that Donors would be asked to contribute to his severance the staff's severance and maybe the next coach's compensation package. So, the pool of funds and boosters who support SU sports including NIL would most likely be asked to support his buyout.
Last point for me. I want everyone to know that based on what i have seen this year I don't think Red is the right person to be the head coach at SU. He has failed on multiple fronts, and I think can do better.
So I'm not supporting a third year for Red based on his coaching acumen. Rather I'm saying that I believe he will get a third year for other reasons. Primarily financial reasons. Not because he deserves it.

i agree with ya but the negative side of this is the amount of money we will lose with all the lost attendance we have and we are gonna be in a bad spot if we cant get our basketball as good as football. We are maybe in a race to the four major conferences and if we cant make us look good in both sports we will be out.

 

[albanycuse]

Like we need more reasons on why Red isnt the right guy to lead us into the future. Bringing in good players is just going to mask the open heart surgery with a band aid. I hope we cut ties and start with a new coach at the end of the season. Even if we lose some recruits. His ceiling is limited. For the future of Syracuse basketball they need to go in another direction, outside the program.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Same here. Red is one of my favorite former players.

I think it's best for all if it ends quickly; bringing him back next year when he has almost zero chance for success even if he improves dramatically would be extremely painful for him... and everyone that cares even a tiny bit about the program.

Youd figure the pressure would be near unbearable. the Dome empty or chanting Fire Red, we already have brown paper bags. Just the rest of this season is gonna be ugly. I dont know how he can recruit the portal off of this season? Whose signing up for this?
Oh Melo will just pay the bill for an all star team and were all good. Thats the company line right?

 

[djcon57]

FWIW, I really hope our fans don't do the FIRE RED shtick. He doesn't deserve that. Just don't go if you'd like him gone.

 

[baggerbob]

I will say there is a difference in that we are cratering hard to bottom. Dino was in year 5 and 6, and had been stagnant for a few years. I’m Sure JW has the pulse of the boosters, and season ticket holders and will do the right thing. I truly think the cost of keeping him another year is greater than getting rid of him but I have no inside knowledge. What would happen if we had 5k less season ticket holders, what would they do to the bottom line.

The guy that they kicked to the curb could have brought out this staff.

 

[Dave]

No doubt our performance is dragging g us down. There’s more though. The game has to find its feet in a completely new world. Putting orange uniforms on does not create a culture. Teams nowadays are struggling to find an identity. There is no continuity. I used to love the early season games and the exhibitions to catch a glimpse of future attractions. The teams developed and gelled over time and had unique characters which carried through the years. Now we are in a world where the players are becoming akin to mercenaries. Mercenaries placed by a temporary agency. Just how this plays out among fan bases is going to be the story. The Golden Goose may very well be cooked.

 

[sufan59]

FWIW, I really hope our fans don't do the FIRE RED shtick. He doesn't deserve that. Just don't go if you'd like him gone.

This is just an uncomfortable situation and so much worse because he is one of our own. We need a miracle, Red needs a miracle! How the coach of the 7th most winningest program in a power conference needs a miracle to even taste mediocrity, which we are now below, is quite eye opening. I hope the miracle happens. Everytime there is a little hope, we take a gut punch like last night. The road it took to get to where we are today is something else.

 

[LAorange44]

This is just an uncomfortable situation and so much worse because he is one of our own. We need a miracle, Red needs a miracle! How the coach of the 7th most winningest program in a power conference needs a miracle to even taste mediocrity, which we are now below, is quite eye opening. I hope the miracle happens. Everytime there is a little hope, we take a gut punch like last night. The road it took to get to where we are today is something else.

I hope he gets his miracle but the evidence says we are headed for an ugly breakup. Lot to consider about the program’s relationship with Red and vice versa before crossing that rubicon. We wouldn’t be canning a Gerg or Scott Shafer here.

 

[OttosShoes]

FWIW, I really hope our fans don't do the FIRE RED shtick. He doesn't deserve that. Just don't go if you'd like him gone.

Absolutely agree. There have been some moments this year where the crowd is booing our own team. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Red2003]

No doubt our performance is dragging g us down. There’s more though. The game has to find its feet in a completely new world. Putting orange uniforms on does not create a culture. Teams nowadays are struggling to find an identity. There is no continuity. I used to love the early season games and the exhibitions to catch a glimpse of future attractions. The teams developed and gelled over time and had unique characters which carried through the years. Now we are in a world where the players are becoming akin to mercenaries. Mercenaries placed by a temporary agency. Just how this plays out among fan bases is going to be the story. The Golden Goose may very well be cooked.

Yea it’s crazy. Think about this. Kiyan next year is going to be making more money than our coaching staff and maybe even the whole roster. He will very likely make more from his businesses, brands and social media than he ever will as a basketball player. Right now he’s ranked what 50th in his class but has the 2nd highest NIL in HS too.

Even though I don’t have confidence in Red I feel for a lot of coaches trying to pretend they have any idea what’s going on out there.

You really have to be diabolical like Coach Fran to handle business as a coach at the P5 level. He learned from the best at Georgia football how to work in a system with no rules and deal with these paid kids. Same Georgia NIL program by the way that stole Leffew who’s sitting at 39.2% from 3 and 12 points a game while we got Carlos at 22% and 6 points a game.

Autry wants to be a players coach and when it’s the Wild West out there thats a bad combination. He’s gotta adapt or get gone.

 

[albanycuse]

FWIW, I really hope our fans don't do the FIRE RED shtick. He doesn't deserve that. Just don't go if you'd like him gone.

You think they haven’t already…

 

[Nicknack]

For me (and this is hard for me to say because I really like Red), but bringing back Adrian for another year would probably be very similar to how I feel every time I see Carlos log another minute. It just shouldn't happen and if you're serious about winning, really serious, both shouldn't happen.

 

[phil77]

No doubt our performance is dragging g us down. There’s more though. The game has to find its feet in a completely new world. Putting orange uniforms on does not create a culture. Teams nowadays are struggling to find an identity. There is no continuity. I used to love the early season games and the exhibitions to catch a glimpse of future attractions. The teams developed and gelled over time and had unique characters which carried through the years. Now we are in a world where the players are becoming akin to mercenaries. Mercenaries placed by a temporary agency. Just how this plays out among fan bases is going to be the story. The Golden Goose may very well be cooked.

Everyone has to adjust the way they think about college sports. Teams no longer have time to GEL over time. They have no time to find continuity together. It will never happen anymore to many moving parts and the rosters are too small, unlike football. So you have to go in prepared for that...

Now what brings continuity faster? Why can other teams GEL fast and some teams don't?

The way I look at college sports now your offensive and defensive systems are your continuity, not your players. You build harmony in your systems. This is where all your players will quickly be on the same page and know where each other is supposed to be. They have a system to follow they have structure. You teach the same system year in and year out. You look for talent that fits your systems etc.

Red is failing here because we don't have that on either end and it shows.