Red's system | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Red's system

To be fair, he changed the entire defense, and it took him a month or two how to teach these guys how to play passable man to man.

The offense was pretty bad, players were getting hurt, and there were personality problems within the team.

Against that backdrop, the offense improved after the New Year, but the defense wore down as we lost inside players.

Things we know to be true about "Red's Style" - we played much faster on offense, we tried to run more and threw more half-court outlet passes.

Even though our defense was horribly inconsistent, we defended the three better, and gave up fewer of them, than the last few Boeheim teams.

He played a lot of guys out of position, but roster construction and injuries brought some of that about.

The team did seem to get better after the New Year, and you have to admit, at least 3 or 4 players significantly improved under this coaching staff.

Still a lot of holes. Still some bad attitudes that need purging. Still need another 3 or 4 guys who are contributors. Seems like our incoming frosh are very good, at traditional SU levels, so that is a clear positive.

Red needs to have a really good portal, and if he wants to move on an assistant or two in favor of a fireball recruiter, and maybe a seasoned X-and-O coach, I would not be opposed. It's his career now. Be bold, or go home.
The personalities had too much leeway.

Just as one example, Bad Cope would be Good Cope in a 'system'. Instead, it was Bad Cope the majority of the time.

People here literally arguing that Mintz dictated the pace over Red...

Hopefully Red nips the personality issues in the bud next season. Nixing Benny was one of his better moves.
 
We wouldn’t have Donnie Freeman coming in without him.
That’s nice but there better be more where that came from because he’s been invisible otherwise.
 
Here's a rundown of Indiana's offense system just as an example.

Indiana pushes the pace. Per NBA.com, they take the most shots in the ‘very early’ and ‘early’ ranges of the shot clock. This varies between 22 seconds and 15 seconds. They push for quick hitters out of ‘wide’ ball screens such as below.


Purely speculation on my part that this is what Red wants, but he was frantic about pace early in the season then quit altogether. Blame Judah, Blame Lack of Depth, etc etc.
Sounds like Westhead’s system.
 
That's kind of what we're hoping for from Copeland, if he can just calm down a bit.
It’s more than calm down, outside of both of them not being able to shoot the 3, they’re almost the exact opposite player.
 
Yes. Absolutely
I Agree What She Said GIF by maddyshine
 
I would love another Billy Edelin
That would be interesting. I'm not sure we could push the ball with him but he had a way of getting wherever he wanted in the half court and being completely under control at all times. Give him a post guy and 2-3 shooters and our halfcourt offense would kill it.
 
Despite what Millhouse said, pushing the ball is a system. You are pushing the ball to get points before the defense is set. Watch the Pacers in the NBA now.

Some of you guys think like if you don't run Pete Carill's Princeton offense with backdoor cuts it's not a "system"
Calhoun's UConn teams excelled at it. It drove me nuts when they'd beat us down the floor for a layup after we made a basket.
 
Spitball. Wall.
Let players run around.
This isn’t true. We run sets. But often with mixed results and not a lot of complexity. As an example, Hurley was widely criticized for his poor offensive coaching his first 2-3 years at UConn. Now they run a crisp, beautifully flowing offense. Not because Hurley wasn’t a good coach before or didn’t know how to coach offense but because he now has better, more skilled talent to do more things on offense, and (a key point) there’s continuity within the program now. Key players have returned each season and so the guys know the systems better and can execute better.
 
This isn’t true. We run sets. But often with mixed results and not a lot of complexity. As an example, Hurley was widely criticized for his poor offensive coaching his first 2-3 years at UConn. Now they run a crisp, beautifully flowing offense. Not because Hurley wasn’t a good coach before or didn’t know how to coach offense but because he now has better, more skilled talent to do more things on offense, and (a key point) there’s continuity within the program now. Key players have returned each season and so the guys know the systems better and can execute better.

I had a really good look Wed. We actually do run a bunch of stuff to free up Bell. Also to get Judah in the lane and get contact.

Last two days have been to save Kevin Keats' job...
 
I had a really good look Wed. We actually do run a bunch of stuff to free up Bell. Also to get Judah in the lane and get contact.
I'm not quoting you to put you on the spot, but rhetorically, how'd that work out?

Syracuse had the 90th ranked AdjO. And that was their strength over defense. Teams around that rank include: St. Bonaventure, UMass, Villanova (new coach), Montana, Penn St.(new coach), St. Louis (fired their coach), SMU, St. Joseph's, Miami (coach could retire) Tulane, FSU, Michigan (could fire their coach), San Francisco, Chattanooga, Georgetown (new coach), Stanford, Stetson, and USC.

Also, on a separate point, that list includes five of next year's ACC schools (yikes). Offense needs to be waaay better. Like night and day better.
 
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This isn’t true. We run sets. But often with mixed results and not a lot of complexity. As an example, Hurley was widely criticized for his poor offensive coaching his first 2-3 years at UConn. Now they run a crisp, beautifully flowing offense. Not because Hurley wasn’t a good coach before or didn’t know how to coach offense but because he now has better, more skilled talent to do more things on offense, and (a key point) there’s continuity within the program now. Key players have returned each season and so the guys know the systems better and can execute better.
well that's the rub isn't it. Players returning.
(I still will hold my position that Autry was part of the prior recruiting administration - he is not innocent of the roster - Boeheim didn't run a autocracy)

But Dan Hurley was a coach for eight years before assuming the role at UConn. Yes, his competition was weaker than Syracuse this year, but his Simple Rating System results were stronger.

And in his first year, even with a losing record, he didn't get blown out anywhere near how and where we did. That's the part that upsets me - the negative margin (or loss margin). We got wiped out. That *IS* coaching - if Red's players are lazily walking around, passing the ball to no one, and running offense through a single failed outlet - take control. Kicking one guy off didn't seem to have the impact it could have.
 
I'm not quoting you to put you on the spot, but rhetorically, how'd that work out?

Syracuse had the 90th ranked AdjO. And that was their strength over defense. Teams around that rank include: St. Bonaventure, UMass, Villanova (new coach), Montana, Penn St.(new coach), St. Louis (fired their coach), SMU, St. Joseph's, Miami (coach could retire) Tulane, FSU, Michigan (could fire their coach), San Francisco, Chattanooga, Georgetown (new coach), Stanford, Stetson, and USC.

Five of next year's ACC schools on a separate points (yikes). Offense needs to be waaay better. Like night and day better.

Terrible because the team was basically falling apart at that point. He did go 4/6 though from the field, playing steadier than that turnover crap would've helped the cause.
 
I personally liked Wooden's system. Bring in 5 star talent year
after year and let them do their thing. No "system" is a universal
formula for success. The best coaches work with the talent they
have and try to maximize individual skills within a team concept.
When the sum is greater than the total of the individual pieces you
have a great "system".
 
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I personally liked Wooden's system. Bring in 5 star talent year
after year and let them do their thing. No "system" is a universal
formula for success. The best coaches work with the talent they
have and try to maximize individual skills within a team concept.
When the sum is greater than the total of individual the pieces you
have a great "system".

Wooden’s “system” was to have a booster buy the best 5* talent possible.

That’s much harder now to have success with, when every program can do it.

See: Cal at UK.
 
Until I see a system, I'm gonna assume he doesn't have one

Running so you didn't have to play in the half court isn't a system
I think there are a couple of issues here. The first is people not understanding what a motion offense is and instead thinking that they are just watching random iso opportunities. The second issue is we had players who lacked instinctual awareness and bogged down the concept or tried to over create.

Red ran a 4 out 1 in motion offense most of the season. That offense, like all motion offenses, is based on concepts - always spreading the floor, passing, cutting, screening, ball reversal, dribble penetration, and pick and rolls. The goal is to get the defense moving, have the players react to what the defense is doing, and press or create scoring opportunities when they are there.

This is not debatable. That is what Red was trying to run. There were flashes near the end of the season when this was highly effective. Against NC St there were also ran set plays run for Bell.

You also mentioned that pushing the ball up the court to avoid half court offense is not a "system." This is also incorrect. Transition or fast break offense is most definitely a system and is used effectively at every level.

Villanova's 4 Out Motion Offense
 
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Until I see a system, I'm gonna assume he doesn't have one

Running so you didn't have to play in the half court isn't a system
Are our guys getting burned out in the first half?
It seems like we're losing steam with our 7-8 man rotation.
 
I think there are a couple of issues here. The first is people not understanding what a motion offense is and instead thinking that they are just watching random iso opportunities.

Red ran a 4 out 1 in motion offense most of the season. That offense, like all motion offenses, is based on concepts - always spreading the floor, passing, cutting, screening, ball reversal, dribble penetration, and pick and rolls. The goal is to get the defense moving, have the players react to what the defense is doing, and press or create scoring opportunities when they are there.

This is not debatable. That is what Red was trying to run. There were flashes near the end of the season when this was highly effective. Against NC St there were also ran set plays run for Bell.


Villanova's 4 Out Motion Offense

They may have lined up in a 4 out 1 in formation, but the passing, cutting and off-ball picks were almost non-existent until February.

We saw basic 2 things from this offensive formation - Maliq pick at the top of the key for Judah or JJ to drive. And the other thing was a 3 man weave at the top of the key, especially when Copeland was in.

When Copeland came in, he would often make the slip pass to Maliq, but the other two guards mostly did not. Nor did the other 2 guards pass to open wing shooters very often if they couldn't get to the rim.

So, I agree with what you're saying about where they positioned themselves on the floor in a half court setting, but major elements of what that offense is supposed to look like were lacking in how we executed, for about the first 20 games of the season.
 
Wooden’s “system” was to have a booster buy the best 5* talent possible.

That’s much harder now to have success with, when every program can do it.

See: Cal at UK.

And not just any five stars. That included Alcindor (the best college player ever) and Bill Walton (one of the best ever).

If we had got Bron and say Luka to come to Cuse and paired them with all-Americans respectively, people probably would be waxing a bit more poetic about JB (not taking anything away from JB’s many accomplishments, obviously). But y’all get the point.
 
Is Red the same age/class as the Fab 5?

He should offer Juwan Howard a spot on the staff if they have any relationship. I'm sure he'd prefer NBA but you never know.
 
They may have lined up in a 4 out 1 in formation, but the passing, cutting and off-ball picks were almost non-existent until February.

We saw basic 2 things from this offensive formation - Maliq pick at the top of the key for Judah or JJ to drive. And the other thing was a 3 man weave at the top of the key, especially when Copeland was in.

When Copeland came in, he would often make the slip pass to Maliq, but the other two guards mostly did not. Nor did the other 2 guards pass to open wing shooters very often if they couldn't get to the rim.

So, I agree with what you're saying about where they positioned themselves on the floor in a half court setting, but major elements of what that offense is supposed to look like were lacking in how we executed, for about the first 20 games of the season.
The problem was the system and the player fit. For most of the season there were four players who gunked up the system because when the got the ball they needed to do their thing with the ball and thus, kept it from moving -- Mintz; Starling but to a lesser degree; Q, unless he was having a good night passing (e.g., see last NCST game); and Taylor, a hard worker and apparent nice guy, who had the yips so bad I am not sure what offense would have been helpful.

There were stretches of games when it worked but to0 many times players reverted to their norm.
 
I think there are a couple of issues here. The first is people not understanding what a motion offense is and instead thinking that they are just watching random iso opportunities. The second issue is we had players who lacked instinctual awareness and bogged down the concept or tried to over create.

Red ran a 4 out 1 in motion offense most of the season. That offense, like all motion offenses, is based on concepts - always spreading the floor, passing, cutting, screening, ball reversal, dribble penetration, and pick and rolls. The goal is to get the defense moving, have the players react to what the defense is doing, and press or create scoring opportunities when they are there.

This is not debatable. That is what Red was trying to run. There were flashes near the end of the season when this was highly effective. Against NC St there were also ran set plays run for Bell.

You also mentioned that pushing the ball up the court to avoid half court offense is not a "system." This is also incorrect. Transition or fast break offense is most definitely a system and is used effectively at every level.

Villanova's 4 Out Motion Offense
Then they ran the worst motion offense I've ever seen. But what do I know I thought mintz was bad from day one and Syracuse fans got all excited that he was coming back.
I think this is ridiculous conversation. Teams that like to run still have to do something in the half court. We took turns going one on one. If you want to call that motion, be my guest.
 
They may have lined up in a 4 out 1 in formation, but the passing, cutting and off-ball picks were almost non-existent until February.

We saw basic 2 things from this offensive formation - Maliq pick at the top of the key for Judah or JJ to drive. And the other thing was a 3 man weave at the top of the key, especially when Copeland was in.

When Copeland came in, he would often make the slip pass to Maliq, but the other two guards mostly did not. Nor did the other 2 guards pass to open wing shooters very often if they couldn't get to the rim.

So, I agree with what you're saying about where they positioned themselves on the floor in a half court setting, but major elements of what that offense is supposed to look like were lacking in how we executed, for about the first 20 games of the season.
A motion offense with motion might have actually helped mintz have better driving lanes when he got the ball back but they never did that
 

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