Saw a tweet that summed up the local fan base

[TheCusian]

I think assuming we can get back to 90s level is unrealistic. Look at the differences in today's game: -recruiting is no longer regional it is national. We can't rely on kids choosing between only PSU and us. -everyone recruits Florida now. We were ahead of the curve at the time. -UConn joined FBS and Temple is making an effort not to suck. That makes it harder to have depth. -RU is no longer a joke and has joined the B1G. Making it harder to recruit. -Pitt no longer sucks. Again harder to recruit. -MD seems to be more invested in FB and is in the B1G. Again recruiting. -the is no Big East, the new Northeast conference is the B1G (PSU, MD, RU). We are in a Southern conference. -we only play BC and Pitt from the Northeast. Again hurts recruiting. -the ACC top to bottom is better than the Big East was. -recruits want bling. SU cannot win the arms race. -few teams recruited athletic QBs. Which made it easier for SU to get commitments. -our brand has taken a major hit in the 2000s. These kids we are recruiting only know McNabb as that bozo on FS1. -SU cannot afford to pay for top notch staffs. Coaching salaries have gotten out of hand. I think SU can be a Top 20-40 type of program again. That would be getting back to the 1999-2001 level. Those 3 years we were ranked as high as: 1999 16th 2000 None 2001 14th I think that is realistic for our program. I also think that will not get more than 40k per game. I would love for SU to get to the 1987-1998 run again. If we did then we would sell out 44k every year. But realistically the chances of that happening are very slim.

How does being in a southern conference hurt recruiting now that it's national?

I don't buy it. I think it's about 80% perception and 20% location. We just need to win.

 

[rrlbees]

You can only suck for so long before people just give up. You can't talk about the good old days forever, McNabb, Freeney, etc. gets really old. I am so sick of it. In 2012, we finally put together a run at the end of the year where we looked like we were coming back to respectability. People would have a tough time selling me that we weren't a legit top 25 team at the end of that 2012 year. So every year we lose fans due to apathy, moving out of town, old age and we create no new ones because we have stunk for so long, not tough to figure out. I have a tougher time parking in DT Ithaca on a Friday night when the students are here than I do for a Syracuse football game, never understood this argument. Makes zero sense to me.

Anyone 35 or under has never seen the good SU since they became an adult and could by their own tickets. That generation did not replace the 60+ generation who have for the most part moved on.

 

[Briancuse]

Anyone 35 or under has never seen the good SU since they became an adult and could by their own tickets. That generation did not replace the 60+ generation who have for the most part moved on.

I am 32 and I saw some really good Su teams growing up.

 

[rrlbees]

So you are saying the giants and jets should be able to fill a 1 million seat stadium every game. Makes sense.

RhT was my point in an earlier post where you can't just use population base. Those 2 teams must have a waiting list a mile long.

 

[TheCusian]

Anyone 35 or under has never seen the good SU since they became an adult and could by their own tickets. That generation did not replace the 60+ generation who have for the most part moved on.

Exactly. The NE doesn't do blind loyalty in sports. We eat our young. Coyle will have to figure it out and I think he will. But we need to win first.

Dungey is a marketable kid. And I've thought Shafer is a CNY kind of coach - people like him, just hate losing. Build it right, market to the kids/families.

 

[Briancuse]

I would say the last really good Su team that we saw, was the Freeney 10-3 team.

 

[Scooch]

I think assuming we can get back to 90s level is unrealistic. Look at the differences in today's game:

-recruiting is no longer regional it is national. We can't rely on kids choosing between only PSU and us.

-everyone recruits Florida now. We were ahead of the curve at the time.

-UConn joined FBS and Temple is making an effort not to suck. That makes it harder to have depth.

-RU is no longer a joke and has joined the B1G. Making it harder to recruit.

-Pitt no longer sucks. Again harder to recruit.

-MD seems to be more invested in FB and is in the B1G. Again recruiting.

-the is no Big East, the new Northeast conference is the B1G (PSU, MD, RU). We are in a Southern conference.

-we only play BC and Pitt from the Northeast. Again hurts recruiting.

-the ACC top to bottom is better than the Big East was.

-recruits want bling. SU cannot win the arms race.

-few teams recruited athletic QBs. Which made it easier for SU to get commitments.

-our brand has taken a major hit in the 2000s. These kids we are recruiting only know McNabb as that bozo on FS1.

-SU cannot afford to pay for top notch staffs. Coaching salaries have gotten out of hand.

I think SU can be a Top 20-40 type of program again. That would be getting back to the 1999-2001 level. Those 3 years we were ranked as high as:

1999 16th
2000 None
2001 14th

I think that is realistic for our program. I also think that will not get more than 40k per game. I would love for SU to get to the 1987-1998 run again. If we did then we would sell out 44k every year. But realistically the chances of that happening are very slim.

OK, that's all well and good, but the big building we have on the Quad at the moment seats 49.5K using aluminum benches, and if we ripped all them out and put in comfy seats we'd lose 5-6K seats by most accounts.

Hoops still draws 30K+ and they play in the same big building.

So I don't understand your point. If you want to slash football capacity to 40K, assuming you're not just putting up Tampa Bay Rays-style tarps, then you're also slashing seating for hoops, which actually still draws awesomely well.

 

[orangecuse]

It is big, imo. It is much more difficult to generate allegiance and support from a region for a private school than a state school. Not to mention state schools have significantly more alums.

And I don't think it's fair to point to the basketball attendance. SU basketball is such a rarity in that it has been so consistently good for so long that of course it's going to attract way more people than a normal college basketball program. We're talking 40 straight years of building a national fanbase where people only know winning. Almost every game is an "event" where casuals will come out in droves.

I get it, I understand the argument, it's not a new one. The enigma is, in my opinion, is that the university bears the city's name. And, since it's also the only game in town (especially at the level in which it plays) people who live there and in the metro area certainly identify themselves with Syracuse. They want to be part of something good, and, unfortunately, SU football has been anything but that. Being a private school has very little bearing (again, in my opinion) when it comes to attendance for football games where capacity is some 48k and change when you take into account the population of Syracuse and vicinity. Winning does, and everything that emotionally comes with it...

 

[KaiserUEO]

ive come to the conclusion that cnyers just dont like football, and i guess thats fine, its their choice.

its completely Fn weird and just hammers home how much of an odd part of the country it is up there, but whatever, its a free country.

if you like football, and you have the chance to go see a D1-P5 team play, then by all the Fn means you take the kids and go.

win or lose, you go.

its football.

its tailgating.

its a great way to spend time with your sons/daughters.

again, its football.

you go.

they dont want to.

ive for too long thought it was entitlement and demanding the product be top notch, the opponent be a name and ultimately to see a win, but i dont anymore.

granted that helps to get the guy who goes 1x, 2x or maybe even 3x to go more often, but if you just want see football, those things shouldnt matter.

cnyers, dont like football.

 

[rrlbees]

All I know is this. Ninety-Nine bucks for season tickets for seven games in seat locations that would be considered good seats in many high level Div 1 stadiums is one of the best deals I know of.

And they are a small percentage of the Dome. If every single one was sold, the Dome would look empty.

 

[Scooch]

I would say the last really good Su team that we saw, was the Freeney 10-3 team.

Yep, and even that was a tough one.

We started 0-2, so there was no momentum. Then after winning a big upset on the road in Blacksburg we got totally annihilated in our national showcase against Miami. Then we got screwed out of the Gator Bowl by the same team we upset (and a complicit Big East office).

I said at the time and maintain to this day that it was the quietest top 15 final ranking we could have possibly accomplished.

 

[orange_in_VA]

I would say the last really good Su team that we saw, was the Freeney 10-3 team.

I was pretty happy with the 2012 team. It wasn't a double digit wins team, but I felt like we had a legitimate chance to win every week. That's a great feeling whether you're winning 7 games or 12.

 

[Briancuse]

Yep, and even that was a tough one.

We started 0-2, so there was no momentum. Then after winning a big upset on the road in Blacksburg we got totally annihilated in our national showcase against Miami. Then we got screwed out of the Gator Bowl by the same team we upset (and a complicit Big East office).

I said at the time and maintain to this day that it was the quietest top 15 final ranking we could have possibly accomplished.

The first two were tough, I was at the Meadowlands for the Gtech game, but I think playing Gtech and Ten early really made them better. We beat some good teams that season. The Vatech game in Blacksburg is one of my all time favorite games.

 

[Scooch]

I was pretty happy with the 2012 team. It wasn't a double digit wins team, but I felt like we had a legitimate chance to win every week. That's a great feeling whether you're winning 7 games or 12.

It was a nice payoff for us diehards, but to the "casual" fan it wasn't ideal. We were coming off that 7-game collapse in 2011 (so expectations were low) and then we started 2012 1-3 and 2-4 (and low expectations were reinforced). Just no momentum or potential for hype until we were well near the end of the season, and even then our signature win was against an unranked Mizzou team on the road. 2012 was nice but there was no ability to generate attendance increases based on good play.

 

[TheCusian]

It was a nice payoff for us diehards, but to the "casual" fan it wasn't ideal. We were coming off that 7-game collapse in 2011 (so expectations were low) and then we started 2012 1-3 and 2-4 (and low expectations were reinforced). Just no momentum or potential for hype until we were well near the end of the season, and even then our signature win was against an unranked Mizzou team on the road. 2012 was nice but there was no ability to generate attendance increases based on good play.

Not to mention losses to Rutgers and Cinci. To the casual fan, those look worse than they should have.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

How does being in a southern conference hurt recruiting now that it's national?

I don't buy it. I think it's about 80% perception and 20% location. We just need to win.

There are more hands in the Northeast pie. Kids used to go to ND or PSU. Then it would trickle down to the rest of the Northeast schools. You wouldn't see a kid like Minkah Fitzpatrick going to Bama.

Being in a Southern conference helps SU to recruit the South. However SU's base is still the Northeast. Not being in a Northeast conference makes it harder IMO.

 

[Scooch]

Not to mention losses to Rutgers and Cinci. To the casual fan, those look worse than they should have.

Yep. The perception of 2012 is symbolic of the attendance discussion I think.

To those of us diehards 2012 turned out to be an oasis in the desert. 7 games of inspired play where we went 6-1 and looked like a top 25 program for the first time in over a decade.

But to the non-diehards it was another crappy start to a season... and then surprise!... we somehow eeked out 7 wins and were in another mid-tier bowl.

So people here look at the 2013 attendance and are befuddled because 2012 was so "good". But to most people it was nothing all that memorable, and not any compelling driver to buy season tickets.

 

[OttoForLife]

Were you there?

No, but the way I see it, there are far too many people who live reasonably close to the Dome (I do not) and chirp like they are fans, but don't go because "the team stinks."

In my career, I had someone once tell me about working for a company in flux: "you'll never regret being part of trying to turn something around and build from the bottom up." I agree and think that applies here.

 

[orange_in_VA]

It was a nice payoff for us diehards, but to the "casual" fan it wasn't ideal. We were coming off that 7-game collapse in 2011 (so expectations were low) and then we started 2012 1-3 and 2-4 (and low expectations were reinforced). Just no momentum or potential for hype until we were well near the end of the season, and even then our signature win was against an unranked Mizzou team on the road. 2012 was nice but there was no ability to generate attendance increases based on good play.

This is part of the reason I always want us to start the season with a couple easy games like this year. Our OOC was brutal that year, and we were still so close to winning them. Starting the year with a 1 point loss to NW and then getting beat up by USC killed the start of the year. We had a chance to win every game except USC that year though.

Our losses that year:

Game 1: 1 point loss to NW
Game 2: 13 point loss to USC
Game 4: 7 point loss @ Minn
Game 6: 8 point loss @ Rutgers
Game 9: 9 point loss @ Cinci

Our good/decent wins:
Game 10: 9 point win over Ville
Game 11: 4 point win @ Mizzou
Bowl game: 24 point win over WVU

What could have been...

 

[K Otto XLIV]

OK, that's all well and good, but the big building we have on the Quad at the moment seats 49.5K using aluminum benches, and if we ripped all them out and put in comfy seats we'd lose 5-6K seats by most accounts.

Hoops still draws 30K+ and they play in the same big building.

So I don't understand your point. If you want to slash football capacity to 40K, assuming you're not just putting up Tampa Bay Rays-style tarps, then you're also slashing seating for hoops, which actually still draws awesomely well.

Assuming the same % drop, the basketball capacity would go from 35446 to 28778. That would impact what 2 games a year? Going to 44k would make it 31667 for basketball. This would also assume that the renovation has the court set up in the same way. With more and/or new risers a greater percentage of the entire capacity might be available. For instance having both endzones be movable, which means being able to put the court on the 50 yard line, adds capacity, as well as increases the use of the suits.

 

[snowycuse]

ive come to the conclusion that cnyers just dont like football, and i guess thats fine, its their choice.

its completely Fn weird and just hammers home how much of an odd part of the country it is up there, but whatever, its a free country.

if you like football, and you have the chance to go see a D1-P5 team play, then by all the Fn means you take the kids and go.

win or lose, you go.

its football.

its tailgating.

its a great way to spend time with your sons/daughters.

again, its football.

you go.

they dont want to.

ive for too long thought it was entitlement and demanding the product be top notch, the opponent be a name and ultimately to see a win, but i dont anymore.

granted that helps to get the guy who goes 1x, 2x or maybe even 3x to go more often, but if you just want see football, those things shouldnt matter.

cnyers, dont like football.

Put the game this week at the Fairgrounds with the midway lined with beer, wine, food tents and silly carnival games for the kiddies and it outdraws the same event at the Dome with relative ease.

 

[KellySyracuse]

No, but the way I see it, there are far too many people who live reasonably close to the Dome (I do not) and chirp like they are fans, but don't go because "the team stinks."

In my career, I had someone once tell me about working for a company in flux: "you'll never regret being part of trying to turn something around and build from the bottom up." I agree and think that applies here.

can I ask how you could draw this conclusion given the fact that you don't live here?

 

[Pyle]

I think assuming we can get back to 90s level is unrealistic. Look at the differences in today's game:

-recruiting is no longer regional it is national. We can't rely on kids choosing between only PSU and us.

-everyone recruits Florida now. We were ahead of the curve at the time.

-UConn joined FBS and Temple is making an effort not to suck. That makes it harder to have depth.

-RU is no longer a joke and has joined the B1G. Making it harder to recruit.

-Pitt no longer sucks. Again harder to recruit.

-MD seems to be more invested in FB and is in the B1G. Again recruiting.

-the is no Big East, the new Northeast conference is the B1G (PSU, MD, RU). We are in a Southern conference.

-we only play BC and Pitt from the Northeast. Again hurts recruiting.

-the ACC top to bottom is better than the Big East was.

-recruits want bling. SU cannot win the arms race.

-few teams recruited athletic QBs. Which made it easier for SU to get commitments.

-our brand has taken a major hit in the 2000s. These kids we are recruiting only know McNabb as that bozo on FS1.

-SU cannot afford to pay for top notch staffs. Coaching salaries have gotten out of hand.

I think SU can be a Top 20-40 type of program again. That would be getting back to the 1999-2001 level. Those 3 years we were ranked as high as:

1999 16th
2000 None
2001 14th

I think that is realistic for our program. I also think that will not get more than 40k per game. I would love for SU to get to the 1987-1998 run again. If we did then we would sell out 44k every year. But realistically the chances of that happening are very slim.

:blah:

We get over 40k more than once a year. To the point where we actually average over 40k. The Dome is fine.

http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/inde...ite_national_trend_of_declining_attendan.html

http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2014/12/syracuse_football_sees_home_at.html

 

[K Otto XLIV]

The preferred seating PDFs don't work on Cuse.com. From those you can see how many A level seats there are for BBall and FB. I know BBall has six sections of A (plus risers) and that FB has 4 (minus top 1/2 of upper deck). I wonder how many of the BBall A level people do not also have FB A level. Including donation a season ticket in FB for those people only costs $245 per seat. If you have any interest in FB at all it would be crazy not to grab a 50 yard line seat for $35 per game.

Are those seats in preferred being sold and we have no shows because people don't care? The single ticket prices are out of whack. But the season ticket prices are as cheap as can be.

 

[Scooch]

Assuming the same % drop, the basketball capacity would go from 35446 to 28778. That would impact what 2 games a year? Going to 44k would make it 31667 for basketball. This would also assume that the renovation has the court set up in the same way. With more and/or new risers a greater percentage of the entire capacity might be available. For instance having both endzones be movable, which means being able to put the court on the 50 yard line, adds capacity, as well as increases the use of the suits.

OK, well we're not dropping football capacity to 40K so...