Scouting report on how to beat Syracuse PARTII (subtitle: Gottlieb's a Tool)

[Orange87]

Okay - so I really enjoyed this article posted by Marsh the other day:

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaab/eye...225/scouting-title-contenders-syracuse-orange

Notwithstanding my post in his original thread about how it didn't really say anything other than a team has to play better than 'Cuse to beat them, I liked the things it said that the Orange did well.

Among those things, it seemed that all three anonymous coaches thought Syracuse was really excellent in transition. The below quotes spell that out:

"They're one of the best transition teams in the country"

"They're really good in transition."

Ultimate concern

“I think the length of their zone and them getting out in transition. They turn turnovers into points. They turn long rebounds into easy baskets. A bad shot is two points the other ways. A forced shot is two points the other way. They're so good in transition.”

“Transition and easy shots. They're the best transition team in the country. They rebound and get the ball up the floor fast. So you have to get guys back. We sent our guys back – we didn't even worry about hitting the offensive glass.”

“Stopping them in transition. Don't let them get a flow offensively. And then find ways to manufacture points. The key is you have to attack the offensive glass from the middle of the floor. You can't try to go underneath the zone and attack the glass.”

Right? So I agree with that and I think that probably the majority of people on this board do.

Which is why I was so surprised to hear everybody's favorite commentator say exactly the opposite on the CBS College hoops show yesterday.

Apologies for my ineptness with the video but at the 10 second spot, Gottlieb, when speaking about SU clearly says: 'Theyre NOT a great transition team'.


Again my recording skils arent great but trust me he was talking about the Orange.

Three coaches who have coached against Syracuse say that are really good - to one of the best in the country in transition and then Gottlieb says 'Nah, not so good.'


C'mon.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I loved that article but don't agree with some of the comments in it. I don't consider us a great transition team.

To be a great transition team you have to, well, play transition basketball, and do it often enough. We are a half court offense. Period. Yes, we can play in transition when the flow dictates it, but our entire offense is controlled/focused around a player who plays the game at his tempo. His tempo is slow, methodical, collected, and effective.

We are certainly capable--we've seen it a few times-- but overall, it's not our style. I would like to see Tyler push it more, in all honesty, because he is very good at it when he does it.

 

[Cuse315Pat]

I loved that article but don't agree with some of the comments in it. I don't consider us a great transition team.

To be a great transition team you have to, well, play transition basketball, and do it often enough. We are a half court offense. Period. Yes, we can play in transition when the flow dictates it, but our entire offense is controlled/focused around a player who plays the game at his tempo. His tempo is slow, methodical, collected, and effective.

We are certainly capable--we've seen it a few times-- but overall, it's not our style. I would like to see Tyler push it more, in all honesty, because he is very good at it when he does it.

Agree completely. We really aren't that great of a transition team this year, especially compared to past years. Mainly because we simply don't play in transition unless there's hardly any defenders back. Yes, we score a lot of points off of opponent's turnovers, but most of them are in fact as you said, in the half court offense, not in transition.

Ennis doesn't push it like past guards have. Cooney has his moments, as does CJ and Grant. But it's not that often. We play at a much slower pace this year. That's also why we don't have many turnovers. That's also why Ennis doesn't have as many assists/turnovers as MCW had. He likes to pull the ball back once we get to the other end of the floor rather than force himself to make a risky play.

 

[Orange87]

Okay that's fine and I appreciate your viewpoints.

Again though - three coaches who coached against Syracuse this season were all in agreement that at worst, the Orange are an above-average transition team and again, I agree with that.

I'm just at a loss at how that perception shared by those coaches who really should know, can just be dismissed out of hand by another person who is regarded as an expert.

Just seems ridiculous.

 

[Eagles20]

It seems like its a concern for opposing coaches to make sure their team is aware that syracuse can be a very good in transition. If you watch the way teams play this year they all make sure to hustle back on defense and are in good position to guard against the break. Ennis and cooney are very solid on defense, but it seems they don't get the turnovers that lead to easy breaks the other way. They don't gamble as much as other guards have in the past, but instead play better positional defense. Cooney had some nice breakaway points off turnovers against BC, but many games it seems they haven't been extending out that far.

 

[Orangezoo]

Transition offense is such an overstated sentiment. For instance last year one of the main reasons we were so transition heavy was due to our defense at the top of the zone creating so many turnovers. Transition offense is usually the result of a turnover creating defense. This year many of the turnovers we have created have occurred closer to the basket than at the top of the zone.

Outside of tylers preference to be more deliberate in how we attack I have noticed that more and more teams are playing further from the 3pt line when they start into their zone offense. It is almost as though they are playing the court like there are NBA lines out there. This has somewhat reduced the number of turnovers at the top of the zone just by how it is being played let alone not having the ball hawking MCW up there. If a team decides to start jacking up shots 5-10 seconds into the shot clock every possession I would imagine we would have a game where transition points were higher for us. So far this year most teams have fell into the Tyler Ennis coma and play to the pace he wants to play at.

I think the real test for whether we can play slow against anyone will be duke. They will pressure the ball in their traditional mtm and they have a guy who is worse than craft at slapping and hand checking in thornton. If playing them does not result in a change in our tempo in order to avoid a loss then no one is going to force us to play fast as we will still be able to grind out wins late regardless of the opponent.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Transition defense has been great - transition offense - not really.

 

[moqui]

I think Gottlieb is right. Syracuse has a well-deserved reputation as a lethal transition team, but it just isn't there this year. Ennis has his hand on the throttle, and he doesn't rev it very high.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah and I wouldn't be surprised if those coaches are relying on the past when we were a great transition team.
They could have been talking to Mike Montgomery, for instance. When we played them, it was early in the year, they probably scouted some games last year when we were a lot better in transition, and I doubt he's seen many of our games since then, so when asked about us, mentions how good we are in transition.

Also, "good in transition" can be interpreted in different ways. We might be very efficient in transition because of the athletes/.finishers we have, but we aren't out in transition as much as in prior years.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

You dont have to play a transition game as a primary offensive strategy to be good at transition. This is like saying you cant be good at running the football unless your offense is primarily run based. Ask the Denver Broncos about that.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Yeah and I wouldn't be surprised if those coaches are relying on the past when we were a great transition team.
They could have been talking to Mike Montgomery, for instance. When we played them, it was early in the year, they probably scouted some games last year when we were a lot better in transition, and I doubt he's seen many of our games since then, so when asked about us, mentions how good we are in transition.

Also, "good in transition" can be interpreted in different ways. We might be very efficient in transition because of the athletes/.finishers we have, but we aren't out in transition as much as in prior years.

Great point about who the coaches are. I didn't see many early season games, but I'm guessing we ran more in the OOC games than we have against ACC teams.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

Transition defense has been great - transition offense - not really.

Amen to that - Once again offense is only half the game and so many are completely blind to this fact.

 

[Alsacs]

This team isn't running in transition like it did with Scoop Jardine running the point. MCW and Ennis aren't the same type of PGs that Scoop. I don't have a problem with that either as Ennis is the smartest PG out of MCW and Scoop and commits the fewest turnovers. However, the running in transition is part of JB's reputation and coaches probably don't realize this team is like those teams.

 

[AZOrange]

I think some people on here miss some of our transition plays. How many breakaway dunks did cooney have in BC? How many trailer 3s has he hit? I mean a couple weeks ago people were complaining because Ennis missed too many fast break layups. We push more than people think. Maybe not against Miami...but there's a reason.

 

[moqui]

I think some people on here miss some of our transition plays. How many breakaway dunks did cooney have in BC? How many trailer 3s has he hit? I mean a couple weeks ago people were complaining because Ennis missed too many fast break layups. We push more than people think. Maybe not against Miami...but there's a reason.

actually, the data are pretty clear. Two years ago, 7.4% of our shots were coming within the first ten seconds after a steal, and we were shooting 72.5% from the field on those shots. This year, it is down to 6% and 58.8%. Including rebounds and after made opponents baskets, 28.9% of all our shots came within the first ten seconds and we shot 60.5%. This year, the total percentages are down to 21.5 and 53. So we are definitely not running either as often nor as effectively.

Yes, we make up for it a tiny bit by hitting more threes, but look at the five year trend on fast break points through 18 games:

2010, 15.3 FBP per game
2011, 15.7
2012, 17.3
2013, 13.9
2014, 8.5

it's not just a matter of perception and it's not entirely explained by tempo (or the percentage numbers would not be down as much)

 

[AZOrange]

actually, the data are pretty clear. Two years ago, 7.4% of our shots were coming within the first ten seconds after a steal, and we were shooting 72.5% from the field on those shots. This year, it is down to 6% and 58.8%. Including rebounds and after made opponents baskets, 28.9% of all our shots came within the first ten seconds and we shot 60.5%. This year, the total percentages are down to 21.5 and 53. So we are definitely not running either as often nor as effectively.

Yes, we make up for it a tiny bit by hitting more threes, but look at the five year trend on fast break points through 18 games:

2010, 15.3 FBP per game
2011, 15.7
2012, 17.3
2013, 13.9
2014, 8.5

it's not just a matter of perception and it's not entirely explained by tempo (or the percentage numbers would not be down as much)

Being down though from 7.4 percent to 6 percent though isn't the same as it being non existent. Which it's not. We might not have dion out there, but we are still good on the break (and clearly the coaches plan to stop it)

 

[moqui]

Being down though from 7.4 percent to 6 percent though isn't the same as it being non existent. Which it's not. We might not have dion out there, but we are still good on the break (and clearly the coaches plan to stop it)

that is just off of steals - total points being down from 17.3 FBP to 8.5 is a huge drop.

possessions are down about 5%, FBP are down over 50%

 

[Knicks411]

Being down though from 7.4 percent to 6 percent though isn't the same as it being non existent. Which it's not. We might not have dion out there, but we are still good on the break (and clearly the coaches plan to stop it)

Sure but did anyone say it was non-existent? I think most people in this thread are just saying we aren't doing as much in transition as in the past

 

[AZOrange]

that is just off of steals - total points being down from 17.3 FBP to 8.5 is a huge drop

Isn't part of that hitting fewer shots? I'm not arguing we're as effective (we're not). Just that we run more than people think (slightly above zero apparently). Given the coaches interviews I. Wonder what their reaction would be if Doug said we are not a transition teams?

 

[cusetown1]

I'd take a half court offense over a transition (fast break) offense any day.

 

[moqui]

Isn't part of that hitting fewer shots?

some, but that just underscores the fact that the transition offense is not as effective as the well-earned reputation from previous seasons.

nobody is saying the transition offense is non-existent, but it is obvious that it is less prevalent (and less obvious but equally true that it is less effective) than recent seasons.

 

[cusetown1]

some, but that just underscores the fact that the transition offense is not as effective as the well-earned reputation from previous seasons.

nobody is saying the transition offense is non-existent, but it is obvious that it is less prevalent (and less obvious but equally true that it is less effective) than recent seasons.

A few years back we made a living on it to the point that Adrian Branch called that team "best transition team since the UNLV Runnin Rebels".

 

[ImperialOrange]

This team isn't running in transition like it did with Scoop Jardine running the point. MCW and Ennis aren't the same type of PGs that Scoop. I don't have a problem with that either as Ennis is the smartest PG out of MCW and Scoop and commits the fewest turnovers. However, the running in transition is part of JB's reputation and coaches probably don't realize this team is like those teams.

Ennis simply doesn't press the issue. If he's not reasonably sure he has a good angle to attack he pulls back and starts over. I think we COULD be a better transition team but likely would result in many more turnovers.

I was thinking about this in relation to to "where have all the alley oops gone?". Then I realized, while exciting, I don't miss the low % variety that end up 5 rows deep in the crowd which was the majority of them.

 

[moqui]

I'd take a half court offense over a transition (fast break) offense any day.

as would I

 

[Coach Orange]

Honestly, there's not much to learn from the article. It's mostly filled with cliches that either aren't specific to this year's team or could apply to any team:

"You have to prepare for their style of play in terms of the zone." It's been that way for years here.

"I always think of transition." The word "always" is telling here. This shows that this quote isn't specifically analyzing this year's team.

"Inherently in the zone, they give up offensive rebounds." This is pointed out in every TV broadcast of our games.

"Overall depth. They don’t play a lot of guys." True of 80% or more of Boeheim's teams over the years.

"In transition, you have to take good shots and take care of the ball, obviously. Take good shots, get offensive rebounds, don’t make careless turnovers, you’ll stay in the game." Sounds like a recipe for beating most teams to me.

"Give them a steady diet of pounding the ball inside and playing inside-out." Again, this would make for effective offense against most teams.

"Stopping them in transition. Don’t let them get a flow offensively. And then find ways to manufacture points." Hm…I bet that teams could win games against Duke, Kansas, Florida, and Arizona this way, too.

The best "insights" in the article are really the comments about the individual players. However, there are some cliches buried in these, too. For example:

"Fair carries them night-in, night-out. Ennis can win a game down the stretch for you, but Fair is their go-to-guy. They’re not winning without Fair."

Hm. A team needs its (senior) leading scorer to win games? Really? Are you sure? :bat:

I don't always love Dougie, but at least his contrarian schtick often leads him to avoid cliche.