Serious recruiting question

[HOFCeluck]

Just because Ray Allen got a restraining order against his Alma mater does not mean anything unusual is going on over there. That happens all the time.

4>1 is true but in terms of being sued by former coaches/beloved players 1>0.

 

[orangecuse]

forget the five stars, those have always been few and far between.

to me, the issue is that our historic recruiting sweet spot has been the 25 thru 50 kid and that we have traditionally been a selector school for the 50 to 100 kid.

we have clearly fallen off from those plateaus.

as good as kc's and rf's responses were above, i am not sure they have addressed the issues relating to these kids.

i think a big aspect is that in the big east we were always a kahuna school with more allure than we have now as a mid pack acc bumpkin.

Dead on post IMO. As Comstock alluded to above, We have only had 20 Mickey D type kids in JB's 40 plus years at the helm, so we've never really been a consistent player for those types. It's exactly what you mentioned where we were very solid and "selective." But, unfortunately, it's seemingly no mas as of late.

 

[RF2044]

forget the five stars, those have always been few and far between.

to me, the issue is that our historic recruiting sweet spot has been the 25 thru 50 kid and that we have traditionally been a selector school for the 50 to 100 kid.

we have clearly fallen off from those plateaus.

as good as kc's and rf's responses were above, i am not sure they have addressed the issues relating to these kids.

i think a big aspect is that in the big east we were always a kahuna school with more allure than we have now as a mid pack acc bumpkin.

This has been a topic that's come up before, and here's what I think: there is no "magic bullet" root cause. Our current situation is the result of changing circumstances, the changing priorities of our iconic head coach who is approaching the sunset point of his career, some bad luck, and some bad luck of our own creation.

In no particular order:

• JB rubbing players the wrong way and many of them leaving at the earliest possible opportunity
• Tyler Ennis leaving a year ahead of schedule
• Kaleb Joseph proving to be a flop
• Missing out on Quade Green
• Turning our noses up at Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, and Tremont Waters
• Poor player development with respect to Tyler Roberson, Paschal Chukwu, and others
• Getting socked with unprecedentedly harsh NCAA penalties relative to our infractions
• Missing out on Thomas Bryant due to the above bullet point
• JB not showing the willingness to do some of the heavy lifting on the recruiting trail as he gets older
• Hopkins leaving
• Hopkins pulling Isiah Stewart with him
• Hopkins leaving & not having a "good cop" on the staff to offset JB's acerbic handling of some players
• Darius Bazley screwing the program by opting not to come here
• Injuries
• Frank Howard not progressing
• Frank Howard being a knucklehead
• Oshae Brissett not making the proverbial sophomore leap
• Duke / UNC being extremely strong the past few years

I know I'm getting into a lot of specifics -- don't really want to point fingers at the players. But as stated above, it's been the confluence of some bad luck, some stuff that we've done as a program poorly, JB approaching the twilight, missing on some key recruiting targets, injuries, and getting screwed by the NCAA -- all in a short span of time.

 

[CusefanATL]

if you lose "the top asst. in the country " - isn't a sure thing that whomever replaces him, will not be as good.

what if the top asst in the country became our head coach. would the replacement still not be as good?

 

[OttoMets]

This has been a topic that's come up before, and here's what I think: there is no "magic bullet" root cause. Our current situation is the result of changing circumstances, the changing priorities of our iconic head coach who is approaching the sunset point of his career, some bad luck, and some bad luck of our own creation.

In no particular order:

• JB rubbing players the wrong way and many of them leaving at the earliest possible opportunity
• Tyler Ennis leaving a year ahead of schedule
• Kaleb Joseph proving to be a flop
• Missing out on Quade Green
• Turning our noses up at Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, and Tremont Waters
• Poor player development with respect to Tyler Roberson, Paschal Chukwu, and others
• Getting socked with unprecedentedly harsh NCAA penalties relative to our infractions
• Missing out on Thomas Bryant due to the above bullet point
• JB not showing the willingness to do some of the heavy lifting on the recruiting trail as he gets older
• Hopkins leaving
• Hopkins pulling Isiah Stewart with him
• Hopkins leaving & not having a "good cop" on the staff to offset JB's acerbic handling of some players
• Darius Bazley screwing the program by opting not to come here
• Injuries
• Frank Howard not progressing
• Frank Howard being a knucklehead
• Oshae Brissett not making the proverbial sophomore leap
• Duke / UNC being extremely strong the past few years

I know I'm getting into a lot of specifics -- don't really want to point fingers at the players. But as stated above, it's been the confluence of some bad luck, some stuff that we've done as a program poorly, JB approaching the twilight, missing on some key recruiting targets, injuries, and getting screwed by the NCAA -- all in a short span of time.

This is good, but there's one other point that someone made that I think contributed as much as any of those factors: style of play.

Even during down years in the mid-'90s or 2000-2002, SU played normal basketball. A kid could ask "do you run? do you score points?" and the answer would be yes. I don't think SU is the same draw today. It's common knowledge that Boeheim's cited in negative recruiting of our big man targets. And it's my understanding that other coaches say the same thing about the offense in general - they run slow-tempo, they don't score, blah blah.

I think it has an effect.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

This has been a topic that's come up before, and here's what I think: there is no "magic bullet" root cause. Our current situation is the result of changing circumstances, the changing priorities of our iconic head coach who is approaching the sunset point of his career, some bad luck, and some bad luck of our own creation.

In no particular order:

• JB rubbing players the wrong way and many of them leaving at the earliest possible opportunity
• Tyler Ennis leaving a year ahead of schedule
• Kaleb Joseph proving to be a flop
• Missing out on Quade Green
• Turning our noses up at Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, and Tremont Waters
• Poor player development with respect to Tyler Roberson, Paschal Chukwu, and others
• Getting socked with unprecedentedly harsh NCAA penalties relative to our infractions
• Missing out on Thomas Bryant due to the above bullet point
• JB not showing the willingness to do some of the heavy lifting on the recruiting trail as he gets older
• Hopkins leaving
• Hopkins pulling Isiah Stewart with him
• Hopkins leaving & not having a "good cop" on the staff to offset JB's acerbic handling of some players
• Darius Bazley screwing the program by opting not to come here
• Injuries
• Frank Howard not progressing
• Frank Howard being a knucklehead
• Oshae Brissett not making the proverbial sophomore leap
• Duke / UNC being extremely strong the past few years

I know I'm getting into a lot of specifics -- don't really want to point fingers at the players. But as stated above, it's been the confluence of some bad luck, some stuff that we've done as a program poorly, JB approaching the twilight, missing on some key recruiting targets, injuries, and getting screwed by the NCAA -- all in a short span of time.

I believe missing on Kevin Huerter deserves its own bullet point right after Bryant’s, & for the same reason.

 

[LetsGoOrang]

One other factor is that Kentucky and Duke are bringing in 4-5 recruits every year. Back in the day, before the 1-and-done era, there would be years where Duke would only have 2 scholarships open. Or Kentucky might have a 3-player class.

Now, just about every year, Duke and Kentucky hoard about 35-40% of the class's Top 25 players. That leaves only about fifteen Top 25 guys for the likes of Kansas, UNC, Florida, Ohio State, Michigan, UCLA, Gonzaga, etc. to fend for. We're in there too, but not as much as we used to be.

One reason I slightly respect UNC > Duke is that Roy Boy often times keeps his kids in the program for 3-4 years (Jackson, Berry, Meaks, Maye, Johnson). Meanwhile, Coach K chooses to win the offseason (aka recruiting) and ride that hype. And that is a reason why we've struggled mightily against the Tar Heels and competed quite well with Duke. UNC is wildly talented and mature, while the Devils are uber-talented, but young/raw/unrefined.

UNC couldn't land the top players for a few years because of the possible sanctions from the NCAA academic fraud charges. They still tried but didn't get the 1 and done players. They lost 2 freshmen last year (White and Little) and have a couple 5 stars coming in this year. They will be like Duke and UK soon enough and the question is "Can Roy win with a bunch of young guns?"

 

[Sherman20]

Look at NBA draft picks as well... If I were a recruit I'm not going to Syracuse simply off the draft ... sure it's great to play in front of a huge crowd but that huge crowd isn't an NBA front office... Coach Cal has had 26 first round picks since 2010 at Kentucky with two of them being number 1 picks...Simply can't overlook that in the recruiting process and the pitch ... Love SU but coming here doesn't equate to a guaranteed first round contract or lottery contract which is big money

But most of those top 25 recruits that go to Kentucky and Duke would be first round picks regardless of where they went to college. K and Cal aren’t “developing” anyone in 1 year. These kids are NBA prospects in high school.

 

[Sherman20]

forget the five stars, those have always been few and far between.

to me, the issue is that our historic recruiting sweet spot has been the 25 thru 50 kid and that we have traditionally been a selector school for the 50 to 100 kid.

we have clearly fallen off from those plateaus.

as good as kc's and rf's responses were above, i am not sure they have addressed the issues relating to these kids.

i think a big aspect is that in the big east we were always a kahuna school with more allure than we have now as a mid pack acc bumpkin.

Bummer that our own fans are now calling us mid pack ACC bumpkins. Do you really believe that’s our new permanent place? Or are you just being provocative?

 

[bnoro]

This has been a topic that's come up before, and here's what I think: there is no "magic bullet" root cause. Our current situation is the result of changing circumstances, the changing priorities of our iconic head coach who is approaching the sunset point of his career, some bad luck, and some bad luck of our own creation.

In no particular order:

• JB rubbing players the wrong way and many of them leaving at the earliest possible opportunity
• Tyler Ennis leaving a year ahead of schedule
• Kaleb Joseph proving to be a flop
• Missing out on Quade Green
• Turning our noses up at Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, and Tremont Waters
• Poor player development with respect to Tyler Roberson, Paschal Chukwu, and others
• Getting socked with unprecedentedly harsh NCAA penalties relative to our infractions
• Missing out on Thomas Bryant due to the above bullet point
• JB not showing the willingness to do some of the heavy lifting on the recruiting trail as he gets older
• Hopkins leaving
• Hopkins pulling Isiah Stewart with him
• Hopkins leaving & not having a "good cop" on the staff to offset JB's acerbic handling of some players
• Darius Bazley screwing the program by opting not to come here
• Injuries
• Frank Howard not progressing
• Frank Howard being a knucklehead
• Oshae Brissett not making the proverbial sophomore leap
• Duke / UNC being extremely strong the past few years

I know I'm getting into a lot of specifics -- don't really want to point fingers at the players. But as stated above, it's been the confluence of some bad luck, some stuff that we've done as a program poorly, JB approaching the twilight, missing on some key recruiting targets, injuries, and getting screwed by the NCAA -- all in a short span of time.

Paschal not developing was more due to Paschal than the coaching staff. You shouldn't have to drag a kid to practice.

 

[newmexicuse]

Bummer that our own fans are now calling us mid pack ACC bumpkins. Do you really believe that’s our new permanent place? Or are you just being provocative?

in the current acc landscape we are pretty clearly behind duke, va., and nc. fsu also seems to be rising fast. so, if our lot in acc life is competing for fifth place most seasons, how else would you describe our status ?

last season we had everybody back and the results did not change much.

lets face it, you could love jimmy or not, but the issue comes down to recruiting, and until such time as our recruiting gets a major bump from current levels our destiny is mediocrity.

so to answer your question, i was not trying to be provocative, just commenting on present realities.

yes, i am optimistic the we will have some seasons when everything does jell, but until our recruiting upgrades that will be the exception and not the rule.

recruiting issues have been beaten to death on this forum, but there really is not any reason why we should not be getting two top fifties every season, and that is pretty much the minimum if we want to be part of the acc top four year in and year out.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

That Bazley kid was Top 20. And a Mickey D's AA.

I guess he doesn't count.

 

[orange79]

That Bazley kid was Top 20. And a Mickey D's AA.

I guess he doesn't count.

Wait - let me guess the response.

"Never showed - doesn't count."

 

[reedny]

We lost Hop who was the top asst. in the country until he left. If we lose Jackson it’s really time for a change

Is "Cuse Slime" a correct reading of your nic? I'd like the answer before I reply to your criticism of SU's head coach.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

This has been a topic that's come up before, and here's what I think: there is no "magic bullet" root cause. Our current situation is the result of changing circumstances, the changing priorities of our iconic head coach who is approaching the sunset point of his career, some bad luck, and some bad luck of our own creation.

In no particular order:

• JB rubbing players the wrong way and many of them leaving at the earliest possible opportunity
• Tyler Ennis leaving a year ahead of schedule
• Kaleb Joseph proving to be a flop
• Missing out on Quade Green
• Turning our noses up at Monte Morris, Jalen Brunson, and Tremont Waters
• Poor player development with respect to Tyler Roberson, Paschal Chukwu, and others
• Getting socked with unprecedentedly harsh NCAA penalties relative to our infractions
• Missing out on Thomas Bryant due to the above bullet point
• JB not showing the willingness to do some of the heavy lifting on the recruiting trail as he gets older
• Hopkins leaving
• Hopkins pulling Isiah Stewart with him
• Hopkins leaving & not having a "good cop" on the staff to offset JB's acerbic handling of some players
• Darius Bazley screwing the program by opting not to come here
• Injuries
• Frank Howard not progressing
• Frank Howard being a knucklehead
• Oshae Brissett not making the proverbial sophomore leap
• Duke / UNC being extremely strong the past few years

I know I'm getting into a lot of specifics -- don't really want to point fingers at the players. But as stated above, it's been the confluence of some bad luck, some stuff that we've done as a program poorly, JB approaching the twilight, missing on some key recruiting targets, injuries, and getting screwed by the NCAA -- all in a short span of time.

No one mentioning JAB and Hop being tied up with USA basketball for how many years and losing valuable time on the trail. Thank god those days are over.

 

[SUFan44]

That Bazley kid was Top 20. And a Mickey D's AA.

I guess he doesn't count.

Why should he count? He never played a single minute at Syracuse.

 

[kcsu]

Wait - let me guess the response.

"Never showed - doesn't count."

Of course it doesn't count. Its like Washington on the football side. How could you ever count a kid who never plays for SU?

 

[SUFan44]

Paschal not developing was more due to Paschal than the coaching staff. You shouldn't have to drag a kid to practice.

This is undoubtedly true, but therein lies a part of the problem with some of the recruits we have gotten. Whether it’s work ethic or wanting guaranteed minutes, the program just does not seem to produce high level players and develop players throughout their careers like it has in the past. Finding players that have the mindset to A) want to get better and B) are capable of putting up with Boeheim is part of recruiting.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Why should he count? He never played a single minute at Syracuse.

JB successfully outrecruited every school in the country for him.

It wasn't JB's fault that Baze took a bag of money from an agent to turn pro. Why should it count against him?

 

[orange79]

Why should he count? He never played a single minute at Syracuse.

Of course it doesn't count. Its like Washington on the football side. How could you ever count a kid who never plays for SU?

Right on cue. He committed, so the recruiters did their job.

He became the first player to decide to go straight to the G-League. Can't blame the recruiters for that.

He counts.

 

[kcsu]

JB successfully outrecruited every school in the country for him.

It wasn't JB's fault that Baze took a bag of money from an agent to turn pro. Why should it count against him?

Jim didnt have anything to do with him. Zero. Nada. It was Griff.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Jim didnt have anything to do with him. Zero. Nada. It was Griff.

So, when a kid commits, it's all Griff.

When a kid doesn't commit, you blast JB.

Predictable.

 

[kcsu]

So, when a kid commits, it's all Griff.

When a kid doesn't commit, you blast JB.

Predictable.

Not true. Learn to read it might help you comprehend.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Not true. Learn to read it might help you comprehend.

That's right.

You blame GMac.

Even for the kids GMac has nothing to do with.

 

[OrangeDW]

Dead on post IMO. As Comstock alluded to above, We have only had 20 Mickey D type kids in JB's 40 plus years at the helm, so we've never really been a consistent player for those types. It's exactly what you mentioned where we were very solid and "selective." But, unfortunately, it's seemingly no mas as of late.

We did have a nice run of pretty big recruits though.

Harris, Flynn, Greene, Fab Melo, Christmas, Coleman, McCullough, and I guess Malachi and Battle would qualify. Devendorf on the front end could count too.

But we’re certainly not getting the Harris/Greene/Melo/Coleman level guys anymore.

Things have changed. As I posted in another thread a few months back, there were years in the 00’s and early 10’s where we had better classes than Duke and Kentucky. Not often but maybe like 25% of the time if I recall.

Picture that happening now.

If Washington and Memphis can reel in top classes, I’d like to think we could get back to that.