Class of 2018 SG Eric Ayala (DE/IMG) to Maryland

[two3zone]

Thorpe is a good player. I watched him last year and liked him. And because two guys that aren't good defensively come in and have trouble with the zone doesn't mean that it is just too difficult to grasp. That isn't true. I don't know that Thorpe will come and be an amazing defender, but I'm not writing guys off because Gillon and white didn't play good defense.

I'm not writing him off because of Gillon and White, writing off the defense because almost every first year player, freshman, transfer, anybody, is average at best at defense in our zone.

 

[dasher]

I'm not writing him off because of Gillon and White, writing off the defense because almost every first year player, freshman, transfer, anybody, is average at best at defense in our zone.

Transfers, really? Who? G was excellent in the zone. And how many transfers have we had? We have had a grand total of 2 5th year guys. Wes Johnson was great in the zone. What are you talking about?

 

[jgeorge322]

Transfers, really? Who? G was excellent in the zone. And how many transfers have we had? We have had a grand total of 2 5th year guys. Wes Johnson was great in the zone. What are you talking about?

Hes just saying it takes some time typically to learn the nuances of the zone. G and Wes both sat a year before they played and G really two years.

 

[dasher]

Hes just saying it takes some time typically to learn the nuances of the zone. G and Wes both sat a year before they played and G really two years.

That is why I questioned him about transfers. It just isn't true. They were great in the zone.

 

[two3zone]

Transfers, really? Who? G was excellent in the zone. And how many transfers have we had? We have had a grand total of 2 5th year guys. Wes Johnson was great in the zone. What are you talking about?

G was great his last year, he was in the system 3 years before that. Wes, I dont know about great but is was good, but he also had out of this world athleticism and was a lottery pick, is Thorpe at that level?

 

[jdubs30]

As much as you need all 5 guys to play in sync, you can make up for 1 bad guy in the zone. Last year, we had 2 freshman, one who was horrific in the zone and one who was solid. Roberson was never that great in the zone IMO, he was average. Lydon was really good. Howard and Gillon weren't good, White wasnt' good. (AW3 got better though). One would think if Gillon was 6'3 he wouldn't have seemed that bad in the zone either - MCW could make mistakes and recover because of his length. Thorpe isn't MCW size but he's a big, long guard.

If Battle has an MCW/Triche type year at the top it will somewhat make up for any defiency Thorpe has.

The problem last year was more than just the grad transfers - we had 2 freshman and a 4th year guy who were average at best. Hopefully those freshman improve (Battle did over the course of the year). I have a feeling Moyer and Brissett will pick it up fine. Esepcially Moyer.

Lydon will be really tough to replace though.

 

[007]

As much as you need all 5 guys to play in sync, you can make up for 1 bad guy in the zone. Last year, we had 2 freshman, one who was horrific in the zone and one who was solid. Roberson was never that great in the zone IMO, he was average. Lydon was really good. Howard and Gillon weren't good, White wasnt' good. (AW3 got better though). One would think if Gillon was 6'3 he wouldn't have seemed that bad in the zone either - MCW could make mistakes and recover because of his length. Thorpe isn't MCW size but he's a big, long guard.

If Battle has an MCW/Triche type year at the top it will somewhat make up for any defiency Thorpe has.

The problem last year was more than just the grad transfers - we had 2 freshman and a 4th year guy who were average at best. Hopefully those freshman improve (Battle did over the course of the year). I have a feeling Moyer and Brissett will pick it up fine. Esepcially Moyer.

Lydon will be really tough to replace though.

Because of the way SU plays the 2-3, making up for "1 bad guy in the zone" is much more difficult. IF we had a great shot blocker at the 5, it would be "easier" to compensate for a weak link, but it would still leave perimeter and/or high post areas exposed.

The issue with Gillion, IMO, had less to do with understanding the nuances of the zone. It was more about his effort when he was not directly responsible for ball pressure. When on the ball, his size and not always keeping his arms up made it much easier to make interior entry passes. The issue was twofold.

 

[jgeorge322]

That is why I questioned him about transfers. It just isn't true. They were great in the zone.

They had a year though before playing and not two. I dont want to speak for two3 but believe hes saying there is an adjustment period typically, and most first year players struggle with it.

Anyways, i think verdict is still out on grad transfers being good in zone. I just dont think white and gillon were particularly good at it due to their skill sets, not time spent in the system.

 

[kcsu]

They had a year though before playing and not two. I dont want to speak for two3 but believe hes saying there is an adjustment period typically, and most first year players struggle with it.

Anyways, i think verdict is still out on grad transfers being good in zone. I just dont think white and gillon were particularly good at it due to their skill sets, not time spent in the system.

We will be much longer and bigger this year. At times we will go.
7'2
6'10
6'9
6'5
6'6

That is as big as we have ever been.

 

[jordoo]

As much as you need all 5 guys to play in sync, you can make up for 1 bad guy in the zone. Last year, we had 2 freshman, one who was horrific in the zone and one who was solid. Roberson was never that great in the zone IMO, he was average. Lydon was really good. Howard and Gillon weren't good, White wasnt' good. (AW3 got better though). One would think if Gillon was 6'3 he wouldn't have seemed that bad in the zone either - MCW could make mistakes and recover because of his length. Thorpe isn't MCW size but he's a big, long guard.

If Battle has an MCW/Triche type year at the top it will somewhat make up for any defiency Thorpe has.

The problem last year was more than just the grad transfers - we had 2 freshman and a 4th year guy who were average at best. Hopefully those freshman improve (Battle did over the course of the year). I have a feeling Moyer and Brissett will pick it up fine. Esepcially Moyer.

Lydon will be really tough to replace though.

I think Brissett, Moyer and Solejaz all LOOK like guys who will do very well as wing defenders in our system. Moyer has had a season learning what the staff wants him to do as well as watching what happens when you don't do it. (last years squad) We don't have any super short guards. I think in general our wings will be much better this year, they just need some games. Our guards should be better because we have two returning and either Ayala or Thorpe have the length to be effective. Thompson can't be worse and like you say if the other 4 guys are playing pretty well then all he needs to do is make the right reads and get into position. Make guys shot over him. All in all it we would be hard pressed to be as bad defensively as we were last year simply because we were REALLY bad and as you point out had a mix of new players, poor defenders and bad defensive fits for our system.

 

[Newhouser]

As much as you need all 5 guys to play in sync, you can make up for 1 bad guy in the zone. Last year, we had 2 freshman, one who was horrific in the zone and one who was solid. Roberson was never that great in the zone IMO, he was average. Lydon was really good. Howard and Gillon weren't good, White wasnt' good. (AW3 got better though). One would think if Gillon was 6'3 he wouldn't have seemed that bad in the zone either - MCW could make mistakes and recover because of his length. Thorpe isn't MCW size but he's a big, long guard.

If Battle has an MCW/Triche type year at the top it will somewhat make up for any defiency Thorpe has.

The problem last year was more than just the grad transfers - we had 2 freshman and a 4th year guy who were average at best. Hopefully those freshman improve (Battle did over the course of the year). I have a feeling Moyer and Brissett will pick it up fine. Esepcially Moyer.

Lydon will be really tough to replace though.

Excellent point. I think people are vastly undervaluing what Lydon brought to this team on the defensive end for both his years here. Rotations, rim protections, rebounds. Don't see any of that getting replaced by who is coming in, or at least haven't seen it demonstrated yet.

 

[gilardino]

Last year with White committing in late August, that hurt the team, and don't kid yourself. We cant wait until the end of July for Ayala to make up his mind, either commit or get Thorpe , if he wants to come to cuse.. The goal is to have either Thorpe or Ayala on campus for second summer session ready to roll!

 

[cuseinseattle]

G was great his last year, he was in the system 3 years before that. Wes, I dont know about great but is was good, but he also had out of this world athleticism and was a lottery pick, is Thorpe at that level?

I get what you are saying about people not grasping the zone to the point of being really strong defenders year 1. I look at it though and think we have 4 guys who will be starting as of now that have been in the zone for 2-3 years. Year 2 for Moyer (RS), Battle, TT and year 3 for FH. You add in Sidibe and Brissett who I think are really hard working kids that are going to get the zone quicker than most and I think we will be ok. I don't think Marek is going to play quite as much as people think. He is going to be a great player for us but I don't see his shoot in the clips I saw. I hope I'm wrong because there are a lot of people on this board I really respect who think he is going to make a difference. If we add Thorpe I think he would be fine at the top of the zone with Battle and FH in a 3 man rotation. I really not that worried about our defense. I think it will be much improved. Our offense on the other hand is going to be a dumpster fire. I'm thinking the MCW final 4 year when we didn't have Southerland dumpster fire. I hope I'm wrong but it is going to be a rock fight every night and I think that will be our issue. Hopefully Brissett comes in and mans the 3 and plays great. I really think that is our only chance on that end. We are going to be asking TT and Battle to do so much offensively that it's going to be tough.

 

[Sherman20]

We will be much longer and bigger this year. At times we will go.
7'2
6'10
6'9
6'5
6'6

That is as big as we have ever been.

Carolina-esque! But yes, inexperienced. Sidibe played zone in high school so hopefully that will help him get a jump start.

 

[EastCoast2]

We will be much longer and bigger this year. At times we will go.
7'2
6'10
6'9
6'5
6'6

That is as big as we have ever been.

I'm getting pretty big just thinking about it.

 

[Oráiste]

I'm not writing him off because of Gillon and White, writing off the defense because almost every first year player, freshman, transfer, anybody, is average at best at defense in our zone.

in recent years we have had many freshman who have been above average defenders from their first year (and a couple who were excellent)
Triche, Keita, Christmas, Grant, Lydon, Battle

The 2010 team, which AFAIAC is the best defense I've ever seen from a Syracuse team, had 2 first year players - Triche and Wes

I do support the idea that 5th year transfers are a different case because they have more to unlearn (and also because the don't really have a commitment to the team or its philosophy, they are here first and foremost for a final shot to showcase themselves)

 

[RF2044]

in recent years we have had many freshman who have been above average defenders from their first year (and a couple who were excellent)
Triche, Keita, Christmas, Grant, Lydon, Battle

The 2010 team, which AFAIAC is the best defense I've ever seen from a Syracuse team, had 2 first year players - Triche and Wes

I do support the idea that 5th year transfers are a different case because they have more to unlearn (and also because the don't really have a commitment to the team or its philosophy, they are here first and foremost for a final shot to showcase themselves)

Better than the 2012 squad? Not sure that opinion passes the eye test.

 

[two3zone]

Better than the 2012 squad? Not sure that opinion passes the eye test.

2013 was probably up there too with MCW and Triche up front.

2010 was solid but I don't think that defenses the team you mentioned or 2013.

 

[jordoo]

Better than the 2012 squad? Not sure that opinion passes the eye test.

2013 was probably up there too with MCW and Triche up front.

2010 was solid but I don't think that defenses the team you mentioned or 2013.

The 09/10 team was good on defense and very good at creating turnovers but I have to agree 2012 with Fab was the best and then that 2013 squad which played some smothering defense especially coming down the stretch.

 

[Oráiste]

Better than the 2012 squad? Not sure that opinion passes the eye test.

by Ken POmeroy's Adjusted Defensive Efficiency measure, the four golden years of zone defense rank

2013 86.7 7th nationally
2010 87.5 15th nationally
2012 89.1 16th nationally
2011 89.7 15th nationally


the differnces in those years are so minor that the "eye test" is essentially worthless and adds nothing to the larger point that 1st year players do not automatically struggle in Boeheim's zone

 

[RF2044]

by Ken POmeroy's Adjusted Defensive Efficiency measure, the four golden years of zone defense rank

2013 86.7 7th nationally
2010 87.5 15th nationally
2012 89.1 16th nationally
2011 89.7 15th nationally


the differnces in those years are so minor that the "eye test" is essentially worthless and adds nothing to the larger point that 1st year players do not automatically struggle in Boeheim's zone

I wasn't "arguing" about first year players, I was commenting on 2012 versus 2010 defensively. And the eye test is far from worthless - I think you are misapplying what that KenPom data implies by only looking at the national ranking.

The "eye test" tells me that 2010 might have been the highest performing, most balanced offensive team we had during the second golden era you reference. They were well above average defensively, but not elite.

The 2012 team excelled defensively, and used defensive pressure, forcing turnovers, and shot blocking to generate easy scoring opportunities in transition that in part masked a generally average half court offense.

Interesting to me that those teams are rated similarly in terms of RANKINGS, which obviously do not tell the entire story. The goal obviously not being to just secure a ranking. That 2012 squad was much more formidable defensively than 2010.

 

[Deano]

Eric Ayala...Eric Ayala

 

[orange79]

Eric Ayala...Eric Ayala

Deano brings up a good point. Eric Ayala. Take your arguments about other things to the main board.

 

[iommi]

Eric Ayala...Eric Ayala

Eric Ayala... better decide soon or maybe we finally say, the heck with it. Just my gut, but I tend to think Ayala winds up in '18.

 

[jordoo]

Eric Ayala... better decide soon or maybe we finally say, the heck with it. Just my gut, but I tend to think Ayala winds up in '18.

I agree and I think it will be Red's doing.