Shafer vs. Marrone's approach to recruiting

[SmilinBob]

One thing I've noticed is if you have what is considered a top class (which is ranked/opinion) and then you are assumed to be better after that thus you get ranked/opinion higher yet again. To me, I just think that this is the just the start of a series of assumptions and many of those teams get the benefit of doubt while the lower rated class schools have to prove themselves.

The star system is for fans and a simple guide for coaches.

I liked the way Marrone found recruits and the key is for the coaches to either to evaluate the kids themselves or accept data from someone they completely trust.

 

[PhatOrange]

There are alot of 4 star kids who flame out to but it's rarely talked about or reported.

Jacoby Brissett was a 4 star QB at Florida. He's transferring to NC State because he's buried on the Florida depth chart.

Look over the Rutgers roster for the past few years.

Rashad Knight was a 4 star kid at Rutgers in 2010. I don't think he's on the team anymore.

Savon Huggins another 4 star kid at Rutgers enters his junior year having rushed for about 1000 yards in 2 years averaging 3.0 yards per carry. Not really lighting it up; he was supposed to be the second coming.

Miles Shuler another 4 star kid at Rutgers hasn't done jack in two years.

Two Rutgers 4 stars who clearly flamed out. Tom Savage (elite 11 QB) and RB DeAntwan Williams finished his career at 1AA.

They have some hits in Vallone, Logan Ryan and maybe you can throw in Brandon Coleman because he's so imposing but he drops a lot of footballs.

Just looking at Rutgers roster alone the percentage of accurately rating a 4 star kid is way below 50%

 

[RMH44]

There are alot of 4 star kids who flame out to but it's rarely talked about or reported.

Jacoby Brissett was a 4 star QB at Florida. He's transferring to NC State because he's buried on the Florida depth chart.

Look over the Rutgers roster for the past few years.

Rashad Knight was a 4 star kid at Rutgers in 2010. I don't think he's on the team anymore.

Savon Huggins another 4 star kid at Rutgers enters his junior year having rushed for about 1000 yards in 2 years averaging 3.0 yards per carry. Not really lighting it up; he was supposed to be the second coming.

Miles Shuler another 4 star kid at Rutgers hasn't done jack in two years.

Two Rutgers 4 stars who clearly flamed out. Tom Savage (elite 11 QB) and RB DeAntwan Williams finished his career at 1AA.

They have some hits in Vallone, Logan Ryan and maybe you can throw in Brandon Coleman because he's so imposing but he drops a lot of footballs.

Just looking at Rutgers roster alone the percentage of accurately rating a 4 star kid is way below 50%

Good points...I wonder how much of the Rutgers 4-star failures can be attributed to piss poor coaching?

 

[PhatOrange]

Good points...I wonder how much of the Rutgers 4-star failures can be attributed to piss poor coaching?

Could be coaching as a lot of their higher rated kids did have the offers (huggins, hamilton, savage, lambert, shuler, holmes, wright) etc..but then again maybe the sites are rating to the offers and not to the actual quality of the prospect.

Huggins was supposed to be a can't miss prospect but when I've watched him run there sure is nothing special about him.

They have a huge subscription base and the site caters to recruiting, some of their guys are inflated for sure. Half of their kids this year are more in the 2 star range than the 3 star range.

Might also be the fact the New Jersey is so over recruited and the prospects seem to be much more over-rated (maybe as a result.)

 

[CuseACC]

Wayne Morgan was 4* on ESPN Scouts Inc.
Ron Thompson was 4* on Scout
Ashton Broyld was 4* on Scout as a Prep
Marquis Spruill was 4* on Rivals as a Prep

It helps when the first line of your "issue" you're pointing out is accurate.

Does it help? Maybe you should heed your own advice...

Ashton Broyld, 3 star: http://recruiting.At their request,... from this site./a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4509234

Marquis Spruill 2 star: http://recruiting.At their request,... from this site./a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4661849

As far as Ron Thompson goes yes he is considered a 4 star but his only big time offers were Illinois and Michigan. Indiana, Toledo, Vanderbilt, and Bowling Green were the others. I am referring to the Ogundekos, the Ishaqs, and the like. Especially the 4 star guys out of NYC. Marrone was never ale to get it done.

 

[TheCusian]

Does it help? Maybe you should heed your own advice...

Ashton Broyld, 3 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4509234

Marquis Spruill 2 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4661849

As far as Ron Thompson goes yes he is considered a 4 star but his only big time offers were Illinois and Michigan. Indiana, Toledo, Vanderbilt, and Bowling Green were the others. I am referring to the Ogundekos, the Ishaqs, and the like. Especially the 4 star guys out of NYC. Marrone was never ale to get it done.

You're right if you're limiting it to 4* recruits who play DE in the Bronx.

He wasn't a great recruiter - I think that's one of the reasons he had an eye on the pros while at his "dream job." But he did upgrade the talent.

 

[ConnectiCuse]

Does it help? Maybe you should heed your own advice...

Ashton Broyld, 3 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4509234

Marquis Spruill 2 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4661849

As far as Ron Thompson goes yes he is considered a 4 star but his only big time offers were Illinois and Michigan. Indiana, Toledo, Vanderbilt, and Bowling Green were the others. I am referring to the Ogundekos, the Ishaqs, and the like. Especially the 4 star guys out of NYC. Marrone was never ale to get it done.

Broyld as a 4*

Spruill as a 4*

 

[CuseACC]

You're right if you're limiting it to 4* recruits who play DE in the Bronx.

He wasn't a great recruiter - I think that's one of the reasons he had an eye on the pros while at his "dream job." But he did upgrade the talent.

Agree but I am not just limiting it to NYC. I think his sales pitch was way too nice. Personally, I think he upgraded the talent, absolutely, but i believe his success can be attributed to Nassib's stellar play, as well as Jerome Smith and Lemon. I still go back to his sweep toss to Ameen-Moore at Minnesota's goal line as his defining moment if you want to take the half glass empty approach. Almost everyone wanted his head at that time. What changed? Not him. In fact, he seemed to mentally unravel many times on the sideline. I also personally believe that Shafer and co. will be better for recruiting and the program in the longrun. Maybe we take a hit with this 2013 class, but oh well (et al Oregon). Marrone's true colors have shone through with his ravaging of the coaching staff here. He's saying to all us Cuse fans "let them eat cake."

 

[qdawgg]

This thread gets worse and worse by page.

Michigan and Illinois were his only big offers?
The sweep to AAM was his defining moment?

Some real *ckin gems in this thread.

 

[bnoro]

Agree but I am not just limiting it to NYC. I think his sales pitch was way too nice. Personally, I think he upgraded the talent, absolutely, but i believe his success can be attributed to Nassib's stellar play, as well as Jerome Smith and Lemon. I still go back to his sweep toss to Ameen-Moore at Minnesota's goal line as his defining moment if you want to take the half glass empty approach. Almost everyone wanted his head at that time. What changed? Not him. In fact, he seemed to mentally unravel many times on the sideline. I also personally believe that Shafer and co. will be better for recruiting and the program in the longrun. Maybe we take a hit with this 2013 class, but oh well (et al Oregon). Marrone's true colors have shone through with his ravaging of the coaching staff here. He's saying to all us Cuse fans "let them eat cake."

Still waiting to hear you say just one positive thing about this program...

 

[tep624]

Does it help? Maybe you should heed your own advice...

Ashton Broyld, 3 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4509234

Marquis Spruill 2 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4661849

As far as Ron Thompson goes yes he is considered a 4 star but his only big time offers were Illinois and Michigan. Indiana, Toledo, Vanderbilt, and Bowling Green were the others. I am referring to the Ogundekos, the Ishaqs, and the like. Especially the 4 star guys out of NYC. Marrone was never ale to get it done.

I guess I forgot that I identified which sites they were 4 stars on. Thanks Einstein. Who would have thought reading comprehension was valuable on a message board.

And thank you for changing your argument as well, now it's not that we "never get 4 stars", now it's we "never get 4 stars that every recruiting site on the planet thinks are 4 stars and we never get 4 stars that are offered by every big time program on the planet or the 4 stars that reside in NYC like Ishaq and Ogundeko".

 

[CuseACC]

Still waiting to hear you say just one positive thing about this program...

Why, is there a requirement for that? Think my statements on Shafer were pretty positive, yes? You are missing the point dude. If you want 100% positives maybe there is an article about gardening you can check out at syracus_.com

 

[SoBristol]

Agree but I am not just limiting it to NYC. I think his sales pitch was way too nice. Personally, I think he upgraded the talent, absolutely, but i believe his success can be attributed to Nassib's stellar play, as well as Jerome Smith and Lemon. I still go back to his sweep toss to Ameen-Moore at Minnesota's goal line as his defining moment if you want to take the half glass empty approach. Almost everyone wanted his head at that time. What changed? Not him. In fact, he seemed to mentally unravel many times on the sideline. I also personally believe that Shafer and co. will be better for recruiting and the program in the longrun. Maybe we take a hit with this 2013 class, but oh well (et al Oregon). Marrone's true colors have shone through with his ravaging of the coaching staff here. He's saying to all us Cuse fans "let them eat cake."

Toss sweep was to Jerome Smith, but the point is still valid. Fans were even more skeptical during the 5 game losing streak that ended 2011.
What changed is that Hackett grew into the OC job, and SU was incredibly lucky in 2012 in avoiding injuries. Not many teams got through a season with its QB, its top two RBs, top 3 WRs, and its line totally intact from game 4 on. Similar on the defensive side.
But give Marrone some credit. He didn't have success with 4 stars (compared even to GROB who brought in Hogue, D. Carter, Lemon, Sales & Collier) but he added depth and toughness, vastly improved the OL and DL, and greatly expanded the use of JUCOs to fill gaps, mainly in the lines. He made some in-roads downstate.
Can Shafer continue and build on the improvements in recruiting? Marrone had Adkins for Georgia & West Coast jucos, Anselmo for downstate & jucos, Wheatley for Michigan, and Hackett was coming into his own with QBs and Provo.
Shafer is working the beat now -- have to see how it turns out by February and then what happens in June-July.

 

[CuseACC]

I guess I forgot that I identified which sites they were 4 stars on. Thanks Einstein. Who would have thought reading comprehension was valuable on a message board.

And thank you for changing your argument as well, now it's not that we "never get 4 stars", now it's we "never get 4 stars that every recruiting site on the planet thinks are 4 stars and we never get 4 stars that are offered by every big time program on the planet or the 4 stars that reside in NYC like Ishaq and Ogundeko".

Those aren't 4 star recruits. I didn't change anything about my argument. Since when is the tight end position so vital to a program's success? We haven't gotten a single 4 star recruit at a position which matters, like DE, QB, under Marrone. Don't bring up reading comprehension with me Einstein. Find a recruit who was across the board 4 stars or higher on all those sites, not just one. Keep trying Einstein.

 

[CuseACC]

Toss sweep was to Jerome Smith, but the point is still valid. Fans were even more skeptical during the 5 game losing streak that ended 2011.
What changed is that Hackett grew into the OC job, and SU was incredibly lucky in 2012 in avoiding injuries. Not many teams got through a season with its QB, its top two RBs, top 3 WRs, and its line totally intact from game 4 on. Similar on the defensive side.
But give Marrone some credit. He didn't have success with 4 stars (compared even to GROB who brought in Hogue, D. Carter, Lemon, Sales & Collier) but he added depth and toughness, vastly improved the OL and DL, and greatly expanded the use of JUCOs to fill gaps, mainly in the lines. He made some in-roads downstate.
Can Shafer continue and build on the improvements in recruiting? Marrone had Adkins for Georgia & West Coast jucos, Anselmo for downstate & jucos, Wheatley for Michigan, and Hackett was coming into his own with QBs and Provo.
Shafer is working the beat now -- have to see how it turns out by February and then what happens in June-July.

Correct, I knew I could have been wrong and it may have been Smith, but the point was it wasn't even close to the right play call with that back. The point of this thread is that I believe, based on Shafer's attitude, what he's said, his hires, and the immediate recruit offers he has made, that we turn the corner with regard to the 4 star recruit issue. There are just some people who lack reading comprehension and/or like to antagonize and attack posters who come remotely close to disagreeing with their stance on certain topics. Those are the people who need to grow up. It's real easy to ignore threads if you don't like them or they make you cry, tep624 and bnoro.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This is how I think it works.

Syracuse isn't located in a hot bed of talent, so we probably won't ever get 5 stars. The recruiting sites don't have the same incentive to get overly excited about our guys as other schools provide, so we probably won't see our early interest commit guys get bumped.

However, I think the star system can be used as a guide at least somewhat in evaluating our recruiting. We'll know recruiting has improved when the percentage of our classes made up of three star or better talent increases, because that means that we're 1) not relying on as unknown quantities as 2 stars may be and 2) we're winning recruiting battles against other name schools. To Marrone's credit, it was true that the % of 3 star or better talent increased for his second class compared to his first, and his third class compared to his second (not sure how this one would have shaken out for this upcoming class).

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the majority of our classes can be comprised of 3 star talent, with 4 and 5s peppered in and "Coach's choice" 2 star players to round out the classes. Syracuse has a unique selling proposition - we are the only BCS program that plays in the controlled conditions of a Dome. Offensive and kicking talent should have high interest in taking advantage of those conditions, so long as our style of play is suited to such conditions. I believe Shafer and McDonald understand that, and I believe this past season we saw an offensive style suited to the Dome. I expect that as those schemes become the norm that the combined advantage of deploying them in the Dome will increase the quality of recruit we can sign on offense. As the talent on offense increases and the performance of the offense increases I believe that our profile as a team will increase, making it easier to attract defensive talent (to say nothing of the idea that I think Shafer's defensive style is something that is already appealing).

In closing, while some facilities can and should be improved, Syracuse has institutionally failed to capitalize on the unique facility it does have, and once it elects to tailor style of play to the Dome recruiting will improve over time.

 

[RMH44]

Why, is there a requirement for that? Think my statements on Shafer were pretty positive, yes? You are missing the point dude. If you want 100% positives maybe there is an article about gardening you can check out at syracus_.com

I think this is a record: Tool certified in 66 posts.

Your paperwork should arrive in the mail within 10 business days...Congratulations!

 

[CuseACC]

I think this is a record: Tool certified in 66 posts.

Your paperwork should arrive in the mail within 10 business days...Congratulations!

Lol. Thanks bro! Try not to get any spaghetti sauce on that SU bib, k bro?

 

[CaliCuse]

This is how I think it works.

Syracuse isn't located in a hot bed of talent, so we probably won't ever get 5 stars. The recruiting sites don't have the same incentive to get overly excited about our guys as other schools provide, so we probably won't see our early interest commit guys get bumped.

However, I think the star system can be used as a guide at least somewhat in evaluating our recruiting. We'll know recruiting has improved when the percentage of our classes made up of three star or better talent increases, because that means that we're 1) not relying on as unknown quantities as 2 stars may be and 2) we're winning recruiting battles against other name schools. To Marrone's credit, it was true that the % of 3 star or better talent increased for his second class compared to his first, and his third class compared to his second (not sure how this one would have shaken out for this upcoming class).

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the majority of our classes can be comprised of 3 star talent, with 4 and 5s peppered in and "Coach's choice" 2 star players to round out the classes. Syracuse has a unique selling proposition - we are the only BCS program that plays in the controlled conditions of a Dome. Offensive and kicking talent should have high interest in taking advantage of those conditions, so long as our style of play is suited to such conditions. I believe Shafer and McDonald understand that, and I believe this past season we saw an offensive style suited to the Dome. I expect that as those schemes become the norm that the combined advantage of deploying them in the Dome will increase the quality of recruit we can sign on offense. As the talent on offense increases and the performance of the offense increases I believe that our profile as a team will increase, making it easier to attract defensive talent (to say nothing of the idea that I think Shafer's defensive style is something that is already appealing).

In closing, while some facilities can and should be improved, Syracuse has institutionally failed to capitalize on the unique facility it does have, and once it elects to tailor style of play to the Dome recruiting will improve over time.

When you say "conducive to the Dome,you are forgetting a rather unDome like big win in Yankee Stadium. It works if there is a useable field.As for Marrone being the most disliked, I believe that the "Lifetime disgust award" goes to GROB. in many respects Doug Marrone was a tired boring kind of coac. He did,however drag this program out of the hole Robinson put us in.

 

[wfschrec]

Does it help? Maybe you should heed your own advice...

Ashton Broyld, 3 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4509234

Marquis Spruill 2 star: http://recruiting. /a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=4661849

As far as Ron Thompson goes yes he is considered a 4 star but his only big time offers were Illinois and Michigan. Indiana, Toledo, Vanderbilt, and Bowling Green were the others. I am referring to the Ogundekos, the Ishaqs, and the like. Especially the 4 star guys out of NYC. Marrone was never ale to get it done.

Spruill was a four star on rivals ... not that hard to find out.

 

[tep624]

Those aren't 4 star recruits. I didn't change anything about my argument. Since when is the tight end position so vital to a program's success? We haven't gotten a single 4 star recruit at a position which matters, like DE, QB, under Marrone. Don't bring up reading comprehension with me Einstein. Find a recruit who was across the board 4 stars or higher on all those sites, not just one. Keep trying Einstein.

You're right, Wayne Morgan wasn't a 4 star recruit.

I like how now your definition of a 4 star recruit is now magically a "consensus" 4 star recruit.

When you keep changing your argument, you can never lose, so I guess I'll give you that.

 

[tep624]

Spruill was a four star on rivals ... not that hard to find out.

A 4 Star recruit now only means a consensus 4 star recruit, specifically out of the NYC area. Didn't you know that? :crazy:

 

[bnoro]

View attachment 1996

You're right, Wayne Morgan wasn't a 4 star recruit.

I like how now your definition of a 4 star recruit is now magically a "consensus" 4 star recruit.

When you keep changing your argument, you can never lose, so I guess I'll give you that.

He was 4 on scout too, when it looked like he was coming to SU they knocked a star off because he got the bump because of a Michigan offer.

 

[RMH44]

Lol. Thanks bro! Try not to get any spaghetti sauce on that SU bib, k bro?

Is that you FFCC?

 

[CuseACC]

View attachment 1996

You're right, Wayne Morgan wasn't a 4 star recruit.

I like how now your definition of a 4 star recruit is now magically a "consensus" 4 star recruit.

When you keep changing your argument, you can never lose, so I guess I'll give you that.

Damn right I am talking about consensus 4 star players. Morgan was a 3 star for probably 95% of the time he was being recruited. You are missing the big picture here kid. Keep digging and digging until your heart's content and when you feel proud that you find a 3 star who was switched to 4 in the 11th hour, give yourself a nice big pat on your back. Just too funny. How's that SU bib? Clean up that sauce kid.