Shafer's compensation

[Statesman1]

That is my point. The NFL is not coming to call on Shaf anytime soon but there are plenty of schools out there that might find a couple of million plus money for a staff to be bargain. I am really not advocating anything special at the moment except perhaps to extend contracts by a year with a small bump. Gestures like that go a long way to keeping the troops happy and more loyal than you might think. The devil that they know cannot be a cheapskate but rather someone that recognizes your value and expresses it often. That is my only point.

If the recruiting class closes out as the best in a decade and we have an 8-5 or even 9-4 season, the college football world will notice. If the Bills suck again next year there will be those that will say that SU's resurrection was more Shafer than Marrone. (I don't believe that but just watch what the Bills fans say next year.)

It always costs more to replace than to retain.

Crusty you and I may have an a generational gap that explains our differences- I just don't believe there is any loyalty in sports-especially in coaching much less any industry these days. If you are saying that our coaches are significantly underpaid and that there are many schools out there that can easily scoop them up, then a small bonus and extension will mean absolutely nothing when that time comes. As an employee in a 30,000 plus international corporation I appreciate some of the nice things my company does for me from time to time. However when the guy across the street comes to double my salary it won't really be much of a consideration to stay. If I have a bad year or two they'll get rid of me and be glad they did. I highly doubt Shafer and staff are much different in that regard-if they were satisfied with molding young men they could do that at lesser institutions for less money and none of the pressure. For their own reasons they have chosen BCS football for their profession. I hope I am wrong and he is wildly successful here and I will happily eat crow when Shafer turns down a better offer when that day comes. At any rate 7-6 is a good season but I'd like to see it duplicated and even better yet improved upon before tearing up the contract.

 

[cuseinchina]

Crusty you and I may have an a generational gap that explains our differences- I just don't believe there is any loyalty in sports-especially in coaching much less any industry these days. If you are saying that our coaches are significantly underpaid and that there are many schools out there that can easily scoop them up, then a small bonus and extension will mean absolutely nothing when that time comes. As an employee in a 30,000 plus international corporation I appreciate some of the nice things my company does for me from time to time. However when the guy across the street comes to double my salary it won't really be much of a consideration to stay. If I have a bad year or two they'll get rid of me and be glad they did. I highly doubt Shafer and staff are much different in that regard-if they were satisfied with molding young men they could do that at lesser institutions for less money and none of the pressure. For their own reasons they have chosen BCS football for their profession. I hope I am wrong and he is wildly successful here and I will happily eat crow when Shafer turns down a better offer when that day comes. At any rate 7-6 is a good season but I'd like to see it duplicated and even better yet improved upon before tearing up the contract.

Not everyone wants to take a top ten job. Its very possible that Shafer cares more about fit than about being at a pressure cooker. At SU he can build us to a top 4 in acc team that wins a conference championship every once in a while and gets respected and discussed nationally. He said the ACC is going to supplant the Big 10 over the next few years and I actually believe that he believes that. Showing some commitment and respect to the guy, monetarily and otherwise, will go a long way towards keeping him from bolting to a middle of the road big 10 team - because given the right resources he can do the same things at SU as he could at one of those teams. I don't think Michigan is calling him anytime soon so that is really what we are worried about is schools that maybe are a little ahead if us now but won't be if and when he is successful in taking the next steps with our program. Doing the little stuff to make him feel supported here can only help.

The idea that all coaches are "cut from the same cloth" is silly to me. I compare it to the money management business which has similar salary, level of competitiveness, and specificity of job function. Some guys want to work at Fidelity and slave away for 20 years to get a shot at running a $50b fund. Others prefer to go to a smaller place where they maybe make less up front but can make a name for themselves sooner. Those guys, if successful may then jump to a big hedge fund or may go out and start their own or may enjoy being a big fish in a mid sized pond - depending on personality and preferences. All of these are Motivated by money but that is only part of the mix. To think that all coaches care only about the biggest dollars in the best sec school does not make any sense. People are different even in high pressure high pay careers.

 

[Moontan]

Honestly if we want to do this thing right we need to triple what we are willing to pay in salaries (not to mention make the capital improvements to compete with our peers).

lol

All it'll take is your donation. I can get you TGD's number, if you'd like.

Get the facilities in order and gradually increase coaches' pay based on merit. The coaching staff will do much better for themselves in the long run if they stick around, return the program to top-25 status and compete for championships. Then they can say "look what we built", and they'll be noticed.

 

[Libero2]

If you look up Head Coaches salary, it almost exactly correlates to their respective RPI and recruiting.

So what you are saying is if we pay Schafer $10million a year, he will instantly become the best recruiter and best game day coach in the country?

What are we waiting for?

 

[Moontan]

However when the guy across the street comes to double my salary it won't really be much of a consideration to stay.

For coaches it's not about moving across the street. It's moving across the country, uprooting families, etc.. At some point the family gets tired of that and would prefer to call some place home for a while.

From a Michigan article:

"It is Wolfgang, in the eighth grade, who Shafer feels worst about. The plan, as he and Missy drew up as 23-year-old newlyweds, was to chase the coaching dream and see how far they could get."

"And then, when the kids got to high school, we'd put roots down and let them flourish as teenagers," Shafer said, "be unselfish about my career."

"The ideal situation is one that'll give us a chance to work with good people, good character people and have some stability for the kids."

 

[Statesman1]

lol

All it'll take is your donation. I can get you TGD's number, if you'd like.

Get the facilities in order and gradually increase coaches' pay based on merit. The coaching staff will do much better for themselves in the long run if they stick around, return the program to top-25 status and compete for championships. Then they can say "look what we built", and they'll be noticed.

I agree with that! My only point is that since we are not a school that can compete in the salary scale with the elite programs small gestures won't keep anyone around in the face of that when it gets down to brass tacks.

Not everyone wants to take a top ten job. Its very possible that Shafer cares more about fit than about being at a pressure cooker. At SU he can build us to a top 4 in acc team that wins a conference championship every once in a while and gets respected and discussed nationally. He said the ACC is going to supplant the Big 10 over the next few years and I actually believe that he believes that. Showing some commitment and respect to the guy, monetarily and otherwise, will go a long way towards keeping him from bolting to a middle of the road big 10 team - because given the right resources he can do the same things at SU as he could at one of those teams. I don't think Michigan is calling him anytime soon so that is really what we are worried about is schools that maybe are a little ahead if us now but won't be if and when he is successful in taking the next steps with our program. Doing the little stuff to make him feel supported here can only help.

The idea that all coaches are "cut from the same cloth" is silly to me. I compare it to the money management business which has similar salary, level of competitiveness, and specificity of job function. Some guys want to work at Fidelity and slave away for 20 years to get a shot at running a $50b fund. Others prefer to go to a smaller place where they maybe make less up front but can make a name for themselves sooner. Those guys, if successful may then jump to a big hedge fund or may go out and start their own or may enjoy being a big fish in a mid sized pond - depending on personality and preferences. All of these are Motivated by money but that is only part of the mix. To think that all coaches care only about the biggest dollars in the best sec school does not make any sense. People are different even in high pressure high pay careers.

Yeah I guess it's possible to find a football coach that's not motivated by the next best job/competition/money but I think that would be the exception and not the rule at this level. I hope you are right and Shafer is a stand up guy and he sticks around for a long successful run here and is happy with being a top 4 ACC team. My only point is that if we are seriously pinning our hopes on "small gestures" to keep coaches instead of building the infrastructure necessary to compete in the ACC we're not going to be too successful.

 

[CousCuse]

So what you are saying is if we pay Schafer $10million a year, he will instantly become the best recruiter and best game day coach in the country?

What are we waiting for?

Right, show him the money... instead of hoarding for pet projects.

 

[Statesman1]

For coaches it's not about moving across the street. It's moving across the country, uprooting families, etc.. At some point the family gets tired of that and would prefer to call some place home for a while.

From a Michigan article:

I believe Wolfgang is already a freshman at Ithaca no? In that case mission accomplished. Anyway, the internet is full of quotes from coaches saying the right thing at the right time who later had a change of heart when a better opportunity came along. I don't know Shafer let alone what's in his heart but I hope you are right and he is the guy who proves me wrong. In the meantime, I'm glad to see the construction of the IPC and hopefully other facilities upgrades that will make SU more attractive to coaches and players.

 

[sufandu]

I would be fine with closing the compensation gap a little. Give him another $100,000 (as well as a small bump for the assistants) and keep the existing contract length. It shows everyone we recognize a job well done while not going overboard with commitment. If we hit 9 wins next year, give him a bigger bump with an extension.

 

[Crusty]

If you look up Head Coaches salary, it almost exactly correlates to their respective RPI and recruiting.

How so? What data are you looking at?

 

[sufandu]

I agree with that! My only point is that since we are not a school that can compete in the salary scale with the elite programs small gestures won't keep anyone around in the face of that when it gets down to brass tacks.


Yeah I guess it's possible to find a football coach that's not motivated by the next best job/competition/money but I think that would be the exception and not the rule at this level. I hope you are right and Shafer is a stand up guy and he sticks around for a long successful run here and is happy with being a top 4 ACC team. My only point is that if we are seriously pinning our hopes on "small gestures" to keep coaches instead of building the infrastructure necessary to compete in the ACC we're not going to be too successful.

We're not talking about competing with the elites. This doesn't have to be all or nothing. Nobody thinks FSU or Alabama is gonna come calling after a 7-6 year. We're talking about strengthening a relationship so that he has no reason to look at schools that are willing to compensate better but are otherwise on a similar or slightly higher level than us. The amount of increased compensation (with no extension) most people are suggesting would have no effect on the ability to improve facilities. A small bump to HCSS and his assistants now. If it is obvious after next year we are trending up (8 or 9 wins, more competitive against Clemson/FSU), a bigger bump and an extension start to make sense. As we approach being a top 25 team we want to make sure he is paid like it.

 

[Statesman1]

We're not talking about competing with the elites. This doesn't have to be all or nothing. Nobody thinks FSU or Alabama is gonna come calling after a 7-6 year. We're talking about strengthening a relationship so that he has no reason to look at schools that are willing to compensate better but are otherwise on a similar or slightly higher level than us. The amount of increased compensation (with no extension) most people are suggesting would have no effect on the ability to improve facilities. A small bump to HCSS and his assistants now. If it is obvious after next year we are trending up (8 or 9 wins, more competitive against Clemson/FSU), a bigger bump and an extension start to make sense. As we approach being a top 25 team we want to make sure he is paid like it.

That's fine. I never said he is on anybody's radar after a one 7-6 year. Frankly nobody outside of Syracuse has probably noticed. If he gets 8 or 9 wins on a regular basis pay him commensurate with that success. All I'm saying is that its naive to think a tiny bump now as has been suggested will create enough warm feelings to keep him around when and if the big boys come calling.

 

[sufandu]

That's fine. I never said he is on anybody's radar after a one 7-6 year. Frankly nobody outside of Syracuse has probably noticed. If he gets 8 or 9 wins on a regular basis pay him commensurate with that success. All I'm saying is that its naive to think a tiny bump now as has been suggested will create enough warm feelings to keep him around when and if the big boys come calling.

A bump now by itself will not, but what people are suggesting is getting the ball rolling toward bringing him up to the same level as the coaches of the teams we consider ourselves to be equal to or better than. Every ACC team we beat this year has a head coach with a higher salary, and to listen to our fanbase (and many on this board) it's almost an insult to think we should be grouped in with the likes of NC State, Wake Forest, or Maryland. When looking at historical success, we view everyone of those programs as being inferior to us. Yet, everyone of them paid their head coach significantly more than ours was paid. This is a good time to start closing that gap.

 

[Statesman1]

A bump now by itself will not, but what people are suggesting is getting the ball rolling toward bringing him up to the same level as the coaches of the teams we consider ourselves to be equal to or better than. Every ACC team we beat this year has a head coach with a higher salary, and to listen to our fanbase (and many on this board) it's almost an insult to think we should be grouped in with the likes of NC State, Wake Forest, or Maryland. When looking at historical success, we view everyone of those programs as being inferior to us. Yet, everyone of them paid their head coach significantly more than ours was paid. This is a good time to start closing that gap.

That's fine too. Let's make significant gestures then and close the gap completely, and not chisel off the crumbs that have been suggested thinking we are buying any loyalty when we are not.

 

[sufandu]

That's fine too. Let's make significant gestures then and close the gap completely, and not chisel off the crumbs that have been suggested thinking we are buying any loyalty when we are not.

It's called being balanced. You give $100,000 now because of our middle of the pack success the first year in a new league, winning a bowl, and having a winning overall record while being the lowest paid coach in the league. You don't give more because it has only been one year. If we tack on another 1-2 wins and are more competitive in the games against FSU and Clemson, then we go all in with a contract extension and another increase after next year. If we have essentially an identical season to this year, you wait on the extension and he still receives the slightly higher salary. The $100,000 increase works well because it's a 7.5% increase in pay (anyone would take that), but by not extending the contract just yet, you're still hedging your bets.

 

[Statesman1]

It's called being balanced. You give $100,000 now because of our middle of the pack success the first year in a new league, winning a bowl, and having a winning overall record while being the lowest paid coach in the league. You don't give more because it has only been one year. If we tack on another 1-2 wins and are more competitive in the games against FSU and Clemson, then we go all in with a contract extension and another increase after next year. If we have essentially an identical season to this year, you wait on the extension and he still receives the slightly higher salary. The $100,000 increase works well because it's a 7.5% increase in pay (anyone would take that), but by not extending the contract just yet, you're still hedging your bets.

I call it throwing away $100k while pretending we are not cheap. If we don't want to be perceived as cheapskates, then let's not act like cheapskates and close the gap to peer institutions and pay the coaching staff. As others have noted there is likely a performance bonus earned by the staff given our modest success this year. If we want to shake the perception that we are not running a BCS program on the cheap then let's put some real chips on the table and show Shafer & staff some real money---if you think he is the guy. Otherwise let's stop pretending $100k is doing anything other than making us feel better about ourselves. When spring practice starts up Shafer will still be the lowest paid coach in the ACC-if that's the problem let's fix it.

 

[sufandu]

I call it throwing away $100k while pretending we are not cheap. If we don't want to be perceived as cheapskates, then let's not act like cheapskates and close the gap to peer institutions and pay the coaching staff. As others have noted there is likely a performance bonus earned by the staff given our modest success this year. If we want to shake the perception that we are not running a BCS program on the cheap then let's put some real chips on the table and show Shafer & staff some real money---if you think he is the guy. Otherwise let's stop pretending $100k is doing anything other than making us feel better about ourselves. When spring practice starts up Shafer will still be the lowest paid coach in the ACC-if that's the problem let's fix it.

Being the lowest paid head coach in the league is only one factor, and it made sense this year since he was a first year head coach. The reason I prefer a balanced approach is because his success this year, given all of the change, is tempered by the fact that one year is a small sample size. I explained that in my previous post. And, yes, I understand there are performance incentives already built into the contracts.

 

[Statesman1]

Being the lowest paid head coach in the league is only one factor, and it made sense this year since he was a first year head coach. The reason I prefer a balanced approach is because his success this year, given all of the change, is tempered by the fact that one year is a small sample size. I explained that in my previous post. And, yes, I understand there are performance incentives already built into the contracts.

What do we gain by the balanced approach you suggest? Others have suggested it gains us some measure of loyalty from the coaches which I disagree with. I guess I'm just not sure what the point is since it doesn't really bring Shafer into alignment with his peers. If anything dipping a toe in underscores a lack of confidence and commitment to pay the man. If any moves are to be made better to commit to him and the staff early with some of that ACC $. Believe in him before anybody else kind of thing. At any rate I'm looking forward to the day when a 7 win season is not a cause for celebration.

 

[sufandu]

What do we gain by the balanced approach you suggest? Others have suggested it gains us some measure of loyalty from the coaches which I disagree with. I guess I'm just not sure what the point is since it doesn't really bring Shafer into alignment with his peers. If anything dipping a toe in underscores a lack of confidence and commitment to pay the man. If any moves are to be made better to commit to him and the staff early with some of that ACC $. Believe in him before anybody else kind of thing. At any rate I'm looking forward to the day when a 7 win season is not a cause for celebration.

If your employer offered you a 7.5% raise one year after receiving a promotion, how would you feel about them?

 

[Statesman1]

If your employer offered you a 7.5% raise one year after receiving a promotion, how would you feel about them?

What you're suggesting is not a raise it's a one time lump sum bonus, I can't rely on that. I would want to know why I am the sucker and still the lowest paid employee in my division! Don't get me wrong I'd happily take the $ but we're doing this on the cheap with Shafer. Showing him a little flash money instead of some real cabbage is counter productive. Ultimately my goal for Shafer is to get him to stay if he is as good as we all hope he is. I'm pretty confident a small, one time bonus is not nearly as appreciated (and therefore likely to retain my services- which should be our goal) as a large, contractually guaranteed, recurring increase in my salary that is competitive with what is available on the open market and that my peers who are doing a nearly identical jobs are being paid. I get he got paid like a first year head coach but at some point that has to change-preferably before his agent starts getting phone calls with better opportunities.

 

[SmilinBob]

You guys are thinking one dimensionally...as being a married man of many years I know you have to find a way to make Mrs Shafer happy first and foremost. She's the one that followed her husband and has been a "coaches widow" for years now so you find a way to reward her for all that she has done for her husband. Mrs. Shafer in 2013/2014 then Mr. Shafer 2014/2015.

 

[sufandu]

What you're suggesting is not a raise it's a one time lump sum bonus, I can't rely on that. I would want to know why I am the sucker and still the lowest paid employee in my division! Don't get me wrong I'd happily take the $ but we're doing this on the cheap with Shafer. Showing him a little flash money instead of some real cabbage is counter productive. Ultimately my goal for Shafer is to get him to stay if he is as good as we all hope he is. I'm pretty confident a small, one time bonus is not nearly as appreciated (and therefore likely to retain my services- which should be our goal) as a large, contractually guaranteed, recurring increase in my salary that is competitive with what is available on the open market and that my peers who are doing a nearly identical jobs are being paid. I get he got paid like a first year head coach but at some point that has to change-preferably before his agent starts getting phone calls with better opportunities.

What I suggested wasn't a lump sum bonus (I have no idea why you think I said this), it was a raise, which is why he would keep it in year 3 of his contract, regardless of next season's outcome. And this raise in no way restricts other raises or contract renegotiations in the future. The people arguing against a raise say it's not time for a contract extension, and I agree with that. That's why I suggested a raise while maintaining the existing contract length. The option to lock him down long term with a more significant pay raise still exists next year. You seem to suggest it has to be all or nothing. Leave things exactly as they are or lock him in with a much larger raise in pay ($500,000/yr?) with a contract extension. All of that is fine, and the most likely scenario is one where nothing is done now and any changes would occur after next year.

Again, if you read my previous posts, I'm suggesting a raise (not a bonus) now. If we continue on an up trend, a contract extension following next season with a more significant raise.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

If your employer offered you a 7.5% raise one year after receiving a promotion, how would

What you're suggesting is not a raise it's a one time lump sum bonus, I can't rely on that. I would want to know why I am the sucker and still the lowest paid employee in my division! Don't get me wrong I'd happily take the $ but we're doing this on the cheap with Shafer. Showing him a little flash money instead of some real cabbage is counter productive. Ultimately my goal for Shafer is to get him to stay if he is as good as we all hope he is. I'm pretty confident a small, one time bonus is not nearly as appreciated (and therefore likely to retain my services- which should be our goal) as a large, contractually guaranteed, recurring increase in my salary that is competitive with what is available on the open market and that my peers who are doing a nearly identical jobs are being paid. I get he got paid like a first year head coach but at some point that has to change-preferably before his agent starts getting phone calls with better opportunities.

The time to negotiate is before the contract is signed or when you are holding another offer, not after year 1. He signed the contract knowing where his pay would fit in overall within the conference. A year that had its ups and downs but accomplished the overall goal for now, winning season, bowl game. However, there were 3 games that where his team looked unprepared and over matched. ( FSU not included, pass there) There were a few instances where you lost your cool and it reflected poorly on the school. Coach Shafer, we love what you are doing, the direction the program is moving, but lets see continued improvement next year and discusss options at that point.

NEXT... Who wants to go to Johnny's for lunch?

I love Shafer but no raise yet, not even close. Like I said, there is a time for negotiations, now isn't the time. I think Shafer is happy for now as well

 

[sufandu]

The time to negotiate is before the contract is signed or when you are holding another offer, not after year 1. He signed the contract knowing where his pay would fit in overall within the conference. A year that had its ups and downs but accomplished the overall goal for now, winning season, bowl game. However, there were 3 games that where his team looked unprepared and over matched. ( FSU not included, pass there) There were a few instances where you lost your cool and it reflected poorly on the school. Coach Shafer, we love what you are doing, the direction the program is moving, but lets see continued improvement next year and discusss options at that point.

NEXT... Who wants to go to Johnny's for lunch?

I love Shafer but no raise yet, not even close. Like I said, there is a time for negotiations, now isn't the time. I think Shafer is happy for now as well

I get all of that. I'm not suggesting HCSS should approach Gross about a raise. I just wouldn't have a problem with Gross offering a raise either and I see the point that others have made about being proactive.

 

[Statesman1]

I get all of that. I'm not suggesting HCSS should approach Gross about a raise. I just wouldn't have a problem with Gross offering a raise either and I see the point that others have made about being proactive.

Fair enough