So basically barring grad transfers we have THREE scholarship guards on the roster

[Alsacs]

If someone thinks Howard can be a decent pg they are homers and if someone thinks he can't be a decent pg they are objective?

The roster mismanagement. Not Howard but I wouldn't bet on Howard if I was getting a freeroll after the stuff I know he did.

We would have atleast one kid if not for him. Which would fill a need.

 

[Brooky03]

Howard has no value. We're a 14-15 win team with him at the point.

Next question.

[rolls eyes]

 

[Alsacs]

If someone thinks Howard can be a decent pg they are homers and if someone thinks he can't be a decent pg they are objective?

You will realize this was the roster for what was going to be JBs Final season. I mean cmon if JB had this roster in mind as his last season.

He bungled the roster bigly.

 

[spo023]

Tottenham Would be Villanova. They're on an upswing and won a national title last year. Nova flamed out second round this year and Tottenham flamed out in the group stage of the Champions League.
I think the Spurs will catch Chelsea.

COYS!!!

 

[RF2044]

IF we miss on Ayala and/or Tucker, JB will bring in grad transfers he "thinks" can contribute. It seems unreasonable, to me anyway, to assume that there is no contingency plan in place waiting for however the cards will fall.

There has been a confluence of events (sanctions, Hop in waiting/Hop leaving, JB's retirement and unretirement, QG "miss," whatever happened with Randolph/Walker (huge loss), KJ miss, BJ's transfer, Ennis-McCullough-Richardson-Lydon) and not simply "crazy" mismanagement, that have contributed to where we are now. It is what it is, regardless.

The class of 2018 is THE class that will define how the Boeheim legacy ends. The 2018 recruiting class should be the focus of attention (or angst, if you prefer), IMO.

Very good post.

The only push back I'll give is that I made a very similar post LAST year about how important the class of 2017 was...

 

[Brooky03]

Because, other than Tyus, nobody has proven capable in the zone. Frank isn't good on D, TT was a mess this past year. I don't have much hope for Chukwu on either end, but he looks to be too slow and weak to anchor the zone. Moyer, Brissett, Sidibe, Washington will have never played a minute of college hoops prior to the opener, so I don't know how anybody can expect them to be solid until they prove it. We saw this past year how difficult it can be for new faces to gel in the zone.

Moyer has a year under his belt learning the zone, which is more than White had, and both Brissett and Moyer are more agile than White ever was. You're right that we don't know what their effort will be or how long it will take Brissett to get into the swing of things, but I'm optimistic. White hurt us a lot on defense. It was overshadowed by his offensive efforts, but he was not a good defender most of the season.

Frank is inconsistent. He played D well when his head was in the game. He could obviously go either way. I'm chalking up TT's issue to not knowing what the heck he was doing on D, hopefully meaning it's not going to be a consistent effort issue going forward. We will see. He has the tools to defend well but needs to show that he can learn and apply what the coaches tell him. I'd imagine this will be almost the sole focus of his development in the off-season.

Washington's D doesn't matter a ton because he won't be on the court much, but I've heard that he gets after it on defense in high school/AAU, so mindset shouldn't be a problem.

Who knows what Chukwu will do; I think offense will hinder his playing time and productivity more than defense. Sidibe is going to be the starter at some point, I think, so Sidibe is the one that we need to focus on on the defensive end. He's recruited as a shot blocker and moves very quickly for his height. I'm optimistic he'll play the middle of the zone well by the time conference play roles around.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I know we are pursuing one grad transfer I just hope we get him as he would help with some scoring.

Oh?

That's the first anyone has said anything about us chasing a possible GT. Care to share more?

 

[billsin01]

For a little perspective, Triche was ranked approximately where Howard Washington is ranked coming out of high school. In Triche's freshman season, we had an upperclassman SG move over to PG; a player who wasn't particularly outstanding in any of his 3 prior seasons with the team, Andy Rautins. We also had sophomore Scoop who was okay as a freshman and okay as a sophomore; nothing incredible.

I know that team was better at the other positions than we're going to be this year. Significantly better. But the guard situation seemed to work out just fine. Can Frank Howard be as good at PG as Andy was? Well, he can already pass and avoid turnovers as well as Andy did. He won't shoot like Andy did but he did show improvement last season in this regard. Will Battle be better than Triche was? Yes. Unequivocally, yes. That leaves Howard Washington. Can he score 5 or 6 points and add a few assists in limited PT? Maybe.

I agree with you in terms of waiting the entire recruiting process out before getting overly concerned (and I also understand the angst many here feel with how things have played out thus far). But there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Frank will be what Andy was -- his senior season is one of the more underrated individual seasons I can remember, largely b/c the scoring was so balanced on such a loaded team.

I also keep reading about how we were loaded at guard with Triche/Scoop/Rautins/MCW which is funny in a way to me. This entire board hated Scoop for long stretches of basically every season and Triche was a guy who was OK, basically functional at the point, but had massive holes in his game. Dude's high-water mark for shooting his last three seasons was .422; he was functional at the point but hardly a playmaker -- struggled to get to the rim, shot <29% from 3 as a senior, never averaged more than 3.6 assists per game and a career 3:2 assist:TO.

My point really isn't to knock guys or make our situation seem better than it is, but I feel like people hammer guys incessantly while they're here and then treat them like they're mt. rushmore guys when they're gone.

Anyway, enough with my rant, I agree that Washington will be an interesting player. The book is that he won't contribute and that may be true, but crazier things have happened.

 

[hungrychuck]

If someone thinks Howard can be a decent pg they are homers and if someone thinks he can't be a decent pg they are objective?

I'm hugely concerned if Howard is our main option at PG too.

But I'm trying to temper that with how I once perceived Z Sims. I was as sure as could be for three seasons that he was a wasted scholarship and just couldn't play at this level. And then his senior year happened. Ha, what the hell did I know?

Arguably Frank has shown more to date that Z had at the same stage. Granted, I never heard even a whiff of Z having character issues, just the opposite. And he arguably had better pieces around him for that senior season.

Still, when it comes to Frank, it's enough for me to keep at least a narrow ray of optimism.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Moyer has a year under his belt learning the zone, which is more than White had, and both Brissett and Moyer are more agile than White ever was. You're right that we don't know what their effort will be or how long it will take Brissett to get into the swing of things, but I'm optimistic. White hurt us a lot on defense. It was overshadowed by his offensive efforts, but he was not a good defender most of the season.

Frank is inconsistent. He played D well when his head was in the game. He could obviously go either way. I'm chalking up TT's issue to not knowing what the heck he was doing on D, hopefully meaning it's not going to be a consistent effort issue going forward. We will see. He has the tools to defend well but needs to show that he can learn and apply what the coaches tell him. I'd imagine this will be almost the sole focus of his development in the off-season.

Washington's D doesn't matter a ton because he won't be on the court much, but I've heard that he gets after it on defense in high school/AAU, so mindset shouldn't be a problem.

Who knows what Chukwu will do; I think offense will hinder his playing time and productivity more than defense. Sidibe is going to be the starter at some point, I think, so Sidibe is the one that we need to focus on on the defensive end. He's recruited as a shot blocker and moves very quickly for his height. I'm optimistic he'll play the middle of the zone well by the time conference play roles around.

I'm not saying this team will be nearly as bad on D as last year's team. I just am not going to proclaim them a solid or good D at this point, especially with the lackadaisical defensive effort out of two probable starters we saw this past year.

This team certainly has more defensive upside if things click, but I just think it's going to take some time. They should have more quickness on the baseline, if we can add Tucker to Moyer/Brissett. TT has to be better this year in the middle (I don't know if his quickness is going play on the wing for more than a few minutes at a time), with hopefully some added effort. Sidibe looks like a nice prospect, but who knows if he'll be ready. I have no faith in Chukwu, I'm sorry to be pessimistic about him, but I saw nothing in his game that lead me to believe he'll be a game-changer in any way.

Physically, we hopefully won't have the same issues defensively, but guys have to know the rotations, spacing and be able to rebound. Those are unknowns that could really take some time to develop.

Also, if our coaching staff can't get the defenders to start playing with their hands up, I don't know what's going on...

 

[billsin01]

That's convenient. So Hop was in charge of recruiting, blows it on at least one bad recruit which caused the program to scramble and he gets none of the blame.

Oh, that's because JB was just chilling on his couch picking his nose, right?

JB is the head guy. He gets the credit and he gets the blame. it's just sort of how it works (even if it's unfair). I think even JB would cop to that.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I'm hugely concerned if Howard is our main option at PG too.

But I'm trying to temper that with how I once perceived Z Sims. I was as sure as could be for three seasons that he was a wasted scholarship and just couldn't play at this level. And then his senior year happened. Ha, what the hell did I know?

Arguably Frank has shown more to date that Z had at the same stage. Granted, I never heard even a whiff of Z having character issues, just the opposite. And he arguably had better pieces around him for that senior season.

Still, when it comes to Frank, it's enough for me to keep at least a narrow ray of optimism.

The problem with being overly optimistic about Frank is there is very little to base it on. I keep reading about the comparison to Z Sims, a dude that took 4 years to develop into a solid player. That was over 20 years ago and really one of the main reasons people seem optimistic about FH. That is crazy to me. Watching him play, I can't believe how much this team is going to rely on him. I don't want to get into his weaknesses again, but I just don't agree with the idea that FH could make the jump because of Z 20+ years ago. They have nothing to do with each other.

 

[hungrychuck]

The problem with being overly optimistic about Frank is there is very little to base it on. I keep reading about the comparison to Z Sims, a dude that took 4 years to develop into a solid player. That was over 20 years ago and really one of the main reasons people seem optimistic about FH. That is crazy to me. Watching him play, I can't believe how much this team is going to rely on him. I don't want to get into his weaknesses again, but I just don't agree with the idea that FH could make the jump because of Z 20+ years ago. They have nothing to do with each other.

I hope you didn't read that I'm overly optimistic about Frank, because I'm certainly not.

I'm not sure what others have written as comparisons to Z, I haven't read any of that.

But what I think you're not properly crediting is that some players -- and some point guards -- take longer to develop than others. The fact that Z's progression happened 20 years ago is really not relevant.

 

[Jasoncuse]

I hope you didn't read that I'm overly optimistic about Frank, because I'm certainly not.

I'm not sure what others have written as comparisons to Z, I haven't read any of that.

But what I think you're not properly crediting is that some players -- and some point guards -- take longer to develop than others. The fact that Z's progression happened 20 years ago is really not relevant.

Sorry, wasn't so much a response to you as it was a general response to the situation.

I've seen a lot of Z Sims comps in how that is used as a reason why FH may be solid this year. I think it's a weird comparison.

Of course, many players take longer to develop. But FH has a ways to go to even be an average PG, and his off the court concerns make it tough to trust him. We'll see; I hope he works his tail off and proves me and others wrong.

 

[Ward]

For a little perspective, Triche was ranked approximately where Howard Washington is ranked coming out of high school. In Triche's freshman season, we had an upperclassman SG move over to PG; a player who wasn't particularly outstanding in any of his 3 prior seasons with the team, Andy Rautins. We also had sophomore Scoop who was okay as a freshman and okay as a sophomore; nothing incredible.

I know that team was better at the other positions than we're going to be this year. Significantly better. But the guard situation seemed to work out just fine. Can Frank Howard be as good at PG as Andy was? Well, he can already pass and avoid turnovers as well as Andy did. He won't shoot like Andy did but he did show improvement last season in this regard. Will Battle be better than Triche was? Yes. Unequivocally, yes. That leaves Howard Washington. Can he score 5 or 6 points and add a few assists in limited PT? Maybe.

This is a stretch even by your optimistic standards.

I agree the front courts in 2009-10 and next year have a wide disparity in talent level.

Triche was a very talented freshman who only saw his recruitment slow due to a knee injury that limited his exposure. He came in physically ready to contribute. Howard Washington has had all the exposure you could ask for between EYBL, Montverde, etc. They are not the same caliber of player at this stage.

I think Frank is better than most on this board but I don't know how realistic it is to even consider Frank might be as good as Andy next year. Andy ended up being an early 2nd round draft pick based on his play that year. I don't expect Frank to be drafted next June.

Tyus Battle will have to end up being ACC POY for a group of Frank, Battle, HW to be remotely close to Triche, Rautins, Scoop in 09-10. Not to mention the latter group had Wes, Arinze, Rick and Kris Joseph to do heavy lifting in the front court.

 

[billsin01]

The more I look at the guard situation the more I think that JB has gone all in with Frank Howard, AND feels really really comfortable in that decision. In looking at the tea leaves:

• We lost out on Quade a while back and we had a long break (didn't even try and get involved with anyone else) and instead signed Howard Washington who is perceived to be a roll player project type and not a top 100 level player, someone who would back up FH not challenge his starting job
• Numerous high level PG became available after decommiting from their schools and we decided not to get involved with any of them in any serious manner. Instead were happy with the back up PG prospect.
• We are recruiting Ayala who is a Combo guard, again no threat to take FH's starting position and only spell him when absolutely necessary, and when Battle doesn't need a break.

So I guess what it comes down to is how much do you trust JB and his evaluations of the guard position. On the positive side he's been doing this a while (understatement) so you would hope he knows what FH has to offer. But on the negative side we have huge risks if an injury at the 1 or 2 position occur and we lost out on a number of recruits during this cycle so maybe he just isn't getting the talent he is use to having. Im not a huge JB supporter, but I trust his judgment in this area and on FH and what he can do at the point as far as production is concerned. Im hoping this is a classic case of "buy low sell high" and focus on the 2018 pg class.

True and JB has never been afraid to play someone out of position at the point either. G, most recently, but Triche was never really a PG, IMO, GMac for multiple years, etc.

It feels like a pretty big gamble and it's hard to envision it playing out well for this season unless Howard takes a huge step forward, in which case you would theoretically feel good about the backcourt with Howard/Battle and potentially two depth guys (Washington/5th year?) and you'd be OK with the front court if they land Tucker (Tucker/Moyer/Thompson/Sidibe/Brissett/Chuckwu).

It may also be that the staff is trying to get to a place where they can actually form a roster with upperclassmen going forward, even if it means limping through '17-'18. You get the vibe that Washington and Howard are 4-year guys, Chuckwu isn't going anywhere (though he may not be any sort of factor), Moyer seems like a 3+ year guy and you would think Sidibe and Brissett are 2 year guys at a minimum but likely 3 or 3+ year guys?

Either way, '17-'18 is feeling like a roll of the dice on Howard, even if Ayala reclassifies.

 

[RF2044]

This is a stretch even by your optimistic standards.

I agree the front courts in 2009-10 and next year have a wide disparity in talent level.

Triche was a very talented freshman who only saw his recruitment slow due to a knee injury that limited his exposure. He came in physically ready to contribute. Howard Washington has had all the exposure you could ask for between EYBL, Montverde, etc. They are not the same caliber of player at this stage.

I think Frank is better than most on this board but I don't know how realistic it is to even consider Frank might be as good as Andy next year. Andy ended up being an early 2nd round draft pick based on his play that year. I don't expect Frank to be drafted next June.

Tyus Battle will have to end up being ACC POY for a group of Frank, Battle, HW to be remotely close to Triche, Rautins, Scoop in 09-10. Not to mention the latter group had Wes, Arinze, Rick and Kris Joseph to do heavy lifting in the front court.

Agree 100%, across the board.

 

[Day2]

It's April 21st. A year ago, our targets were Grant Mullins and Spike Albrecht. We didn't know if Richardson was staying in the draft or not. Board regulars were pimping a grad transfer from Central Michigan. We didn't know who Gillon was. White was two months away from leaving Nebraska. Thompson wasn't close to making a decision. Tyler Cavanaugh wasn't sending out feelers. Omer Yurtseven was a couple weeks away from literally knocking on our door. A lot can happen over the course of a summer...and most of it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Fly Rodder]

This is a stretch even by your optimistic standards.

 

[billsin01]

People need to stop rationalizing a team next year with Howard at the point.

It's not going to work.

We need to do better.

We would love to have better but it's every bit as ridiculous to suggest he can't improve and/or be a functional part of roster. The kid averaged double-figures in minutes during our FF run as a freshman. There is something there. Will we see it? It is hard to imagine based on how miserable his sophomore campaign was, but to summarily dismiss it is wrong.

 

[007]

Very good post.

The only push back I'll give is that I made a very similar post LAST year about how important the class of 2017 was...

Good point RF, as usual.

The importance of the 2017 class was crucial. Unfortunately, that recruiting cycle corresponded with the "confluence of events" noted above. Fortunately, there are still a few cards left to be played on that table.

 

[cuseguy]

Even if Howard is the starter and is reasonably good enough to lead the team, we still need another guard for depth in the event of an injury.

So you can argue that another guard is more important than a wing who can shoot. But both would be wise.

 

[billsin01]

Hence my post. I don't get people being homers on this.
Your being objective here.

I just want to know why this roster so late in the process is this questionable when it was going to be JBs farewell season if Hop didn't leave.

I feel like maybe JBs farewell season is a big part of why this is, in fact, such a mess or at least so unsettled right now. For all the folks saying JB all of sudden didn't care about recruiting, I have to wonder if it wasn't a conscious decision to let Hop take the lead as part of the succession plan. It may have been a bad decision, but it's easier for me to believe it was a misstep than for me to believe that a guy who has made a living off of being exceptionally over-competitive somehow deciding he doesn't really care any more.

But I don't know which category I fall into. I mean, the roster as currently constructed is thin at best and one of the worst of the JB era at worst. I'm not sure adding Ayala even really solves the guard issues we could potentially have. There have absolutely been developments that seem tough to comprehend -- all in for Quade, not busting down Lonnie Walker's door, the BJ transer/redshirt situation, handing the keys to Kaleb, Chuckwu (at least so far) ...

But I think the criticism can also go way overboard. For one, the staff has had to deal with some factors that would have been tough to anticipate. Ennis leaving (in a good way, he was obviously great as a frosh and made the right decision, but I don't think anyone here or on the staff would have said one-and-done when he committed), Grant leaving despite being incredibly raw offensively, McCullough playing 8 decent games, 8 terrible games and then leaving, Lydon struggling to find himself offensively ... I mean, the new world of college basketball makes roster management extremely difficult and continuity a precious commodity that's hard to come by.

And secondly, we don't really know what this roster will look like. Losing Tucker and Ayala not reclassifying to this class would both be really big blows. But could we still end up with Dolejaz (or however you spell his name) and a decent 5th-year backup guard? Maybe. And if we did that and put together a solid class next year, could we be back where we want to be by '18-'19? Quite possibly.

I don't know -- I think you have to let the process play out. With Hop relocated, JB extended and Griff coming on board, let's see what shakes out.

 

[Brooky03]

This is a stretch even by your optimistic standards.

I agree the front courts in 2009-10 and next year have a wide disparity in talent level.

Triche was a very talented freshman who only saw his recruitment slow due to a knee injury that limited his exposure. He came in physically ready to contribute. Howard Washington has had all the exposure you could ask for between EYBL, Montverde, etc. They are not the same caliber of player at this stage.

I think Frank is better than most on this board but I don't know how realistic it is to even consider Frank might be as good as Andy next year. Andy ended up being an early 2nd round draft pick based on his play that year. I don't expect Frank to be drafted next June.

Tyus Battle will have to end up being ACC POY for a group of Frank, Battle, HW to be remotely close to Triche, Rautins, Scoop in 09-10. Not to mention the latter group had Wes, Arinze, Rick and Kris Joseph to do heavy lifting in the front court.

Triche was a fringe 4 star on his best day, injured or not. I like him as much as anybody, but let's not oversell what he was.

Andy is one of my favorite players to ever wear orange. He was not a PG, though. He was an excellent shooter/scorer, which Frank will not be, but Frank is actually the better distributor despite all of his issues on and off the court.

Battle being in consideration for ACC POY is not far fetched.

 

[rrlbees]

I'm hugely concerned if Howard is our main option at PG too.

But I'm trying to temper that with how I once perceived Z Sims. I was as sure as could be for three seasons that he was a wasted scholarship and just couldn't play at this level. And then his senior year happened. Ha, what the hell did I know?

Arguably Frank has shown more to date that Z had at the same stage. Granted, I never heard even a whiff of Z having character issues, just the opposite. And he arguably had better pieces around him for that senior season.

Still, when it comes to Frank, it's enough for me to keep at least a narrow ray of optimism.

That's all well and good. My post wasn't an opinion of Howard though.