So is it Safe to Assume with JB making the public statement he did | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

So is it Safe to Assume with JB making the public statement he did

we fans don't get to see the practices. we really can't judge the talent we see based solely on the game minutes we observe. you truly have to see the practices to understand who's ready to contribute and who's not game worthy. only then will you have an informed opinion


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Come on man, he was in his 60s and spry back then.
 
What type of other factors?

JB is in charge of recruiting, roster management, player development, offense, defense and every detail about this program. What other factor comes anywhere close to him?
This is easy to answer: G League taking top talent going forward. We left the big east and are no longer the factor in the northeast that we were for decades (obviously we should still be able to recruit but there has been a very different vibe around this program since we left the big east). Kids who don't play immediately all transfer. Kids that get a hint at the league are gone. The SEC seems to be gaining ground, the B1G is going strong, the ACC has had two bad years in a row -- does it follow the football trend of a vast majority of talent headed to factories in the southeast and mid-west? Not sure. Coaching salaries are increasing and Syracuse has never opened the wallet in that way. Many of our fellow NE programs remain searching for past glory: Johnnies and BC (at least whatever glory they actually had, which wasn't much but it wasn't constant doormat status under skinner and gary williams), G'town, most notably, but Seton Hall, UConn, Maryland -- all programs trying to recapture past glory as well (Hall has been better of late but not much to show for it; Maryland has had some nice regular seasons with little to no postseason success, UConn might be on it's way back with Hurley and the BE affiliation, but it's not a given).

Listen -- do I know if any of this is true? No. Is it an excuse for JB's recent struggles? No, this program has dipped, clearly. I just think it's funny that everyone is 100% in agreement that it's because JB sucks and that the next coach -- whoever the hell we hire -- would rectify it immediately and we'd ride off into future glory. We simply don't know that.
 
I agree with the first couple of points but I really have to push back on the third. There are lots and lots of successful examples of legends handing off the reigns to a replacement or a guy replacing a legend that have gone remarkably smoothly or been fairly successful. Here are some examples. Yes, there are varying degrees of success here and varying degrees of programs, but many have similar characteristics to Syracuse.

1.) Izzo replaced Heathcoat and actually built on and had more sustained success than his mentor.
2.) despite a failure to reach a Final Four, Matt Painter has done wonders at Purdue sustaining his mentor Gene Keady’s success in an incredibly competitive conference.
3.) Roy Williams has won more titles than his mentor Dean Smith at UNC. Yes there was a small 2 or 3-year blip of difficulty with Matt Doherty, but most people knew Roy would come home if Doherty flamed out.
4.) Bill Self did fairly well replacing Roy at Kansas. I’d say 13 straight conference titles is pretty good.
5.) Chris Holtman righted the ship at Ohio State after Thad Matta’s health issues.
6.) Louisville has gone from legend Denny Crum to legend Rick Pitino to Chris Mack. The jury is out on Mack but he had huge success at Xavier so he should do well.
7.) speaking of Xavier, they’ve had years of sustained success under a myriad of coaches, from Matta to Skip Prosser to Sean Miller to Mack to Travis Steele.
8.) Brian Dutcher has continued the success that his mentor Steve Fisher started at San Diego State.
9.) Michigan went from legend John Beilein, the all time wins leader at the school, to Juwan Howard, who in his first year had a top 5 team that won the Big 10 and made it to the Elite Eight.
10.) Arizona had a brief period of turmoil following Lute Olsen’s health issues and subsequent retirement. But Sean Miller, despite not making a Final Four, had Arizona near the top of the conference every season.
11.) Even Kentucky and UCLA have done really well. No one was gonna equal Wooden’s success at UCLA, but good coaches from Larry Brown to Ben Howland to Mick Cronin (even mediocre ones like Harrick and Alford) have kept UCLA relevant. They’ve almost always been at the upper echelon of their conference, even if they’re not winning 12 national titles. Same with Kentucky.
12.) after Rollie left, Steve Lappas kept Villanova in the upper echelon of the Big East (even if his tourney results weren’t stellar) until Jay Wright came along and took it to the next level.

Sure, there are a few examples of programs like Indiana that have struggled. But even Indiana had some success under Crean.

Great programs with great facilities, great fan bases, big revenues and great recruiting territory make for great coaches. Syracuse is one of those type of programs.
Yup, a lot of these are great examples. I would quibble with some. UCLA to me is nowhere near what they were considered for a looonngggg time. Lappas was OK but not where rollie or Lappas have been. The Guthridge/Doherty era nearly killed the Carolina fans i know as did the Tubby era Kentucky squads outside the seeming outlier of a title.

But generally I agree -- replacing coaches is part of the business and it can be done well to sustain at least a high level of success. But when you're replacing a long-time legend (some of those dudes were not really at those schools for long periods) it can be tricky.

But isn't holtman making like $7M or something crazy? there's also the factor of who we can afford to hire.

My only point is that it ain't that simple. What is going on today is painful. What lies ahead is, at best, unkonwn.
 
Yup, a lot of these are great examples. I would quibble with some. UCLA to me is nowhere near what they were considered for a looonngggg time. Lappas was OK but not where rollie or Lappas have been. The Guthridge/Doherty era nearly killed the Carolina fans i know as did the Tubby era Kentucky squads outside the seeming outlier of a title.

But generally I agree -- replacing coaches is part of the business and it can be done well to sustain at least a high level of success. But when you're replacing a long-time legend (some of those dudes were not really at those schools for long periods) it can be tricky.

But isn't holtman making like $7M or something crazy? there's also the factor of who we can afford to hire.

My only point is that it ain't that simple. What is going on today is painful. What lies ahead is, at best, unkonwn.
I don't think anyone could get to where Ucla used to be. I'm going to go out on a limb here but no one's ever winning 13 titles in an 18 year span ever again.
 
"I don't think anyone could get to where Ucla used to be. I'm going to go out on a limb here but no one's ever winning 13 titles in an 18 year span ever again."

oh it's happening sonny boy . and his name is DINO BABERS !
 
I don't think anyone could get to where Ucla used to be. I'm going to go out on a limb here but no one's ever winning 13 titles in an 18 year span ever again.
Got it but would you call UCLA a consistent blue blood power the past 25 years?
 
No but they have won so much that puts them in the blue blood category.
That’s not the point tho. They were THE college hoops program. Now I’d think you’d rank dozens ahead of them. They may still be blue blood b/c of the history but in reality they’re lucky if you’re calling them top 25. I guess the easy way to phrase this is if you were a UCLA fan from the 70s or 80s you’d be doing an awful lot of reminiscing these days.
 
That’s not the point tho. They were THE college hoops program. Now I’d think you’d rank dozens ahead of them. They may still be blue blood b/c of the history but in reality they’re lucky if you’re calling them top 25. I guess the easy way to phrase this is if you were a UCLA fan from the 70s or 80s you’d be doing an awful lot of reminiscing these days.
I mean if you expand it to 26 years they have as many titles as we do the past 26 years.
 
I mean if you expand it to 26 years they have as many titles as we do the past 26 years.
Fine, go 26 years. They are unquestionably not where we are in that span and Duke/uk/Kansas ... not even a discussion
 
Fine, go 26 years. They are unquestionably not where we are in that span and Duke/uk/Kansas ... not even a discussion
They did go to the final four in 2006 2007 and 2008 and this year.
 
That’s not the point tho. They were THE college hoops program. Now I’d think you’d rank dozens ahead of them. They may still be blue blood b/c of the history but in reality they’re lucky if you’re calling them top 25. I guess the easy way to phrase this is if you were a UCLA fan from the 70s or 80s you’d be doing an awful lot of reminiscing these days.
They’ve been to the final 4 and elite 8 more than us the past 25 seasons. Same number of titles.
 
This is easy to answer: G League taking top talent going forward. We left the big east and are no longer the factor in the northeast that we were for decades (obviously we should still be able to recruit but there has been a very different vibe around this program since we left the big east). Kids who don't play immediately all transfer. Kids that get a hint at the league are gone. The SEC seems to be gaining ground, the B1G is going strong, the ACC has had two bad years in a row -- does it follow the football trend of a vast majority of talent headed to factories in the southeast and mid-west? Not sure. Coaching salaries are increasing and Syracuse has never opened the wallet in that way. Many of our fellow NE programs remain searching for past glory: Johnnies and BC (at least whatever glory they actually had, which wasn't much but it wasn't constant doormat status under skinner and gary williams), G'town, most notably, but Seton Hall, UConn, Maryland -- all programs trying to recapture past glory as well (Hall has been better of late but not much to show for it; Maryland has had some nice regular seasons with little to no postseason success, UConn might be on it's way back with Hurley and the BE affiliation, but it's not a given).

Listen -- do I know if any of this is true? No. Is it an excuse for JB's recent struggles? No, this program has dipped, clearly. I just think it's funny that everyone is 100% in agreement that it's because JB sucks and that the next coach -- whoever the hell we hire -- would rectify it immediately and we'd ride off into future glory. We simply don't know that.
No one thinks JB sucks. But he’s not as good as he once was. He’s still a great tactician. But as Alsacs has said for a few years now, he’s gotten worse and worse at roster management, and i think he’s really failed at relationship building with the players and recruits. That’s the big issue. He’s struggling to recruit and acquire high level talent, and the results show on the court at least in the regular season.
 
That’s not the point tho. They were THE college hoops program. Now I’d think you’d rank dozens ahead of them. They may still be blue blood b/c of the history but in reality they’re lucky if you’re calling them top 25. I guess the easy way to phrase this is if you were a UCLA fan from the 70s or 80s you’d be doing an awful lot of reminiscing these days.
UCLA won a NC in 1995 and made it 3 straight Final Fours from 2006-2008.

Last school to make 3 consecutive Final Fours.

The program isn’t winning NCs but before they ran off Ben Howland because of Bill Walton and UCLA alums hating his playing style UCLA was good.
 
No one thinks JB sucks. But he’s not as good as he once was. He’s still a great tactician. But as Alsacs has said for a few years now, he’s gotten worse and worse at roster management, and i think he’s really failed at relationship building with the players and recruits. That’s the big issue. He’s struggling to recruit and acquire high level talent, and the results show on the court at least in the regular season.
This is true and very different from much of the JB criticism on this board.
 
UCLA won a NC in 1995 and made it 3 straight Final Fours from 2006-2008.

Last school to make 3 consecutive Final Fours.

The program isn’t winning NCs but before they ran off Ben Howland because of Bill Walton and UCLA alums hating his playing style UCLA was good.
UCLA is fine. They were one of the very elite programs in the country. Great run from howland. Otherwise some highs and a bunch of lows.
 
i remember back early '90's JB was recruiting Ed Obannon. think i asked JB about this on his show once

O’Bannon narrowed his choices in recent weeks to UNLV, Arizona State, Syracuse, USC and UCLA. Jerry Tarkanian, coach of NCAA champion UNLV, and Bill Frieder, Arizona State coach, were guest speakers at Artesia’s recent postseason awards banquet.

i remember him getting injured and then surfacing at UCLA. man was a slammer !
 

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