Sorry, but it is time...

[Fat tire 13]

Lots of good points here, and wanted to add some thoughts from a slightly different perspective. It's (very) painful to type this, as I have often defended coach B to both friends and haters. But it is time to consider moving on for various reasons...

Basketball is simply not an enjoyable product. I keep going back to the UNC/ZAGS game I watched over the weekend. UNC scored 50 in the first half. It was exciting. Damn exciting. Sure, there were some defensive lapses. But it was offense first, and felt like both teams could score in bunches. Contrast that to Cuse offense, which has zero creativity. Yes, players matter and all that. But run some plays, mix it up a bit, etc. Just do ANYTHING. Both the coaches and players are to blame. But it can't be 0% coaching here.

Also contrast it to football, and why Dino is so awesome. Even when we were losing games, we were doing exciting stuff. Maybe Marrone/Shaffer got the same won/loss results. However, 90% of the fans would rather see us lose 55-40 than 10-7.

With a basketball team that allegedly has 2+ NBA prospects, this is a squandered opportunity. Press more, run fast breaks, even throw the damn alley oops. 7-4 with two awful losses should be a reason to shake it up

The problem is I don't think Boeheim will do anything to shake it up, and that is why we need a change...

 

[cuseguy]

Lots of good points here, and wanted to add some thoughts from a slightly different perspective. It's (very) painful to type this, as I have often defended coach B to both friends and haters. But it is time to consider moving on for various reasons...

Basketball is simply not an enjoyable product. I keep going back to the UNC/ZAGS game I watched over the weekend. UNC scored 50 in the first half. It was exciting. Damn exciting. Sure, there were some defensive lapses. But it was offense first, and felt like both teams could score in bunches. Contrast that to Cuse offense, which has zero creativity. Yes, players matter and all that. But run some plays, mix it up a bit, etc. Just do ANYTHING. Both the coaches and players are to blame. But it can't be 0% coaching here.

Also contrast it to football, and why Dino is so awesome. Even when we were losing games, we were doing exciting stuff. Maybe Marrone/Shaffer got the same won/loss results. However, 90% of the fans would rather see us lose 55-40 than 10-7.

With a basketball team that allegedly has 2+ NBA prospects, this is a squandered opportunity. Press more, run fast breaks, even throw the damn alley oops. 7-4 with two awful losses should be a reason to shake it up

The problem is I don't think Boeheim will do anything to shake it up, and that is why we need a change...

The press is usually ineffective. Fast breaks? We’re not good at that. Alley-Oops? Have you been watching?

 

[Fat tire 13]

The press is usually ineffective. Fast breaks? We’re not good at that. Alley-Oops? Have you been watching?

I'm not saying make any of this a core part of the strategy. I agree alley-oops are ineffective, but hey they are fun. We don't even try to fast break, but will say Hughes/Battle have done a few things in transition. Hughes has gotten ahead on the break on a few occasions and Battle had couple nice takes to the rim at a fast pace yesterday. The press has served us well in past years, so would disagree with your point there.

Almost anything is better than passing around the perimeter for 30 seconds and throwing up a contested 3 (or even fail to get a shot off, which happened a couple times)

There is simply zero variety/creativity. Sometimes the team had the DNA to be so good with the zone, that we were still effective overall. If we are going to suck, would rather see a more exciting version of sucking

 

[Melancer46]

Have you watched the games or are you going off stats because it seems like you're just reading CBB reference?

Marek passes up wide open opportunities for worse opportunities each game. That's not helping the team.

I've watched most of them. The numbers help you to see some stuff that your eyes don't necessarily catch such as the subtle improvements to Brissett's rebounding and finishing numbers. I think Dolezaj's shooting tendencies and Sidibe's ability to not turn the ball over every single time he touches it have both stood out in watching them this year even without referring to the exact numbers that suggest the same.

I could question whether or not you watched the games last year too if you truly don't think there's any difference with Dolezaj, or maybe you just don't remember what this team looked like last year.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I've watched most of them. The numbers help you to see some stuff that your eyes don't necessarily catch. I think Dolezaj's shooting tendencies and Sidibe's ability to not turn the ball over every single time he touches it have both stood out in watching them this year even without referring to the exact numbers that suggest the same.

I could question whether or not you watched the games last year too if you truly don't think there's any difference with Dolezaj.

Yeah there’s definitely a difference the way he played at the end of last year(which may been over his head), which was aggressive compared to this year. Passive.

 

[Melancer46]

Yeah there’s definitely a difference the way he played at the end of last year(which may been over his head), which was aggressive compared to this year. Passive.

If you think he was aggressive last year, you're only remembering the games that you want to remember. He was passive then and he's passive now, but the fact that he's willing to take 3 pointers now is a major development.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The press is usually ineffective. Fast breaks? We’re not good at that. Alley-Oops? Have you been watching?

Recruit guys who can finish. Stop recruiting guys who make for good zone players.

The rest will follow.

JB recruits the best guys for his defensive system. Not the best basketball players. And we wonder why the offense is so tough to watch?

 

[Cusefan0307]

If you think he was aggressive last year, you're only remembering the games that you want to remember. He was passive then and he's passive now, but the fact that he's willing to take 3 pointers now is a major development.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He's still passing up way to many open shots.

He also averaged 11ppg the last 7 games of the year after Moyer fell out of the rotation and was much more willing to do something with the ball and his per possession stats are pretty much down across the board both in shooting attempts and rebounds.

 

[Melancer46]

Recruit guys who can finish. Stop recruiting guys who make for good zone players.

The rest will follow.

JB recruits the best guys for his defensive system. Not the best basketball players. And we wonder why the offense is so tough to watch?

It's kinda wild that in the years leading up to MCW's time here, it felt like the fast break was a huge part of the offense. That aspect has seemingly disappeared.

The general lack of offensive talent is pretty scary. I'd say we have one player that I'm confident in as a shooter. 1 or maybe 2 guys that I would say are above average passers, and neither one can really dribble, so their impact as a creator are pretty minimal. 1 player I feel confident about finishing in traffic (and a couple that will be high % finishers because they're generally uncontested).

 

[Melancer46]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. He's still passing up way to many open shots.

He also averaged 11ppg the last 7 games of the year after Moyer fell out of the rotation and was much more willing to do something with the ball and his per possession stats are pretty much down across the board both in shooting attempts and rebounds.

I agree that he's still passing up too many shots.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Boeheim's not going to leave of his own accord, which means that the administration is going to have to have the stones to remove him at some point. It's going to be a really tough situation for the university. The more we keep stacking 12 to 15 loss seasons on top of each other, the less desirable the job becomes.

I'm less worried about 'job desirability' than about the profile of the school in general, as perceived by potential recruits over the next ten years.

Kids today don't have memories or reference to our 'glory days.' No one we're recruiting knows who Derrick Coleman, Stevie Thompson, Billy Owens, Pearl are. Kids are very much about now. If we continue to finish at .500 in the ACC, and continue to reinforce our reputation as a bubble team, we will soon be Buffalo or Boston College but with a dome. Outside of our alum bubble, "Syracuse" is just some small, non-NYC college, with a big sports building. Days of us being a conference leader are over. Whatever brand equity we built in the Big East is gone. Whatever brand equity Carmelo Anthony built for us in the NBA is gone. We haven't put any starters into the NBA since MCW's(?) rookie season. These are all damning considerations for the most talented kids coming out of high school, and those are the kids who will determine our future.

As for JB—i think there's a disconnect, between the 'respect' he gets with the tv talking heads since 2003, versus how much he's actually respected by high schoolers. Of course, the kids we are being considered by will cite his HoFness, but i never had the sense that the true HS badasses, the alpha dogs, are all that impressed by his "professorial," whiny caricature. And then there's the zone. I've also long tended to doubt the competitiveness of a player who chooses to play for a zone-only program. Regardless of its occasional effectiveness, no kid in a pickup game ever shouts out, "Let's play zone!"

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team." Which is horsecrud. I joined up in 85. Zone is not our identity. It's a phase. And if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognize that the product we have since going zone only is not one we would appreciate if we weren't somehow 'involved' with Syracuse. From the outside, we are not creating legions of fans like we did when we were 'showtime in the Dome' on Big East Monday Nights.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm less worried about 'job desirability' than about the profile of the school in general, as perceived by potential recruits over the next ten years.

Kids today don't have memories or reference to our 'glory days.' No one we're recruiting knows who Derrick Coleman, Stevie Thompson, Billy Owens, Pearl are. Kids are very much about now. If we continue to finish at .500 in the ACC, and continue to reinforce our reputation as a bubble team, we will soon be Buffalo or Boston College but with a dome. Outside of our alum bubble, "Syracuse" is just some small, non-NYC college, with a big sports building. Days of us being a conference leader are over. Whatever brand equity we built in the Big East is gone. Whatever brand equity Carmelo Anthony built for us in the NBA is gone. We haven't put any starters into the NBA since MCW's(?) rookie season. These are all damning considerations for the most talented kids coming out of high school, and those are the kids who will determine our future.

As for JB—i think there's a disconnect, between the 'respect' he gets with the tv talking heads since 2003, versus how much he's actually respected by high schoolers. Of course, the kids we are being considered by will cite his HoFness, but i never had the sense that the true HS badasses, the alpha dogs, are all that impressed by his "professorial," whiny caricature. And then there's the zone. I've also long tended to doubt the competitiveness of a player who chooses to play for a zone-only program. Regardless of its occasional effectiveness, no kid in a pickup game ever shouts out, "Let's play zone!"

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team." Which is horsecrud. I joined up in 85. Zone is not our identity. It's a phase. And if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognize that the product we have since going zone only is not one we would appreciate if we weren't somehow 'involved' with Syracuse. From the outside, we are not creating legions of fans like we did when we were 'showtime in the Dome' on Big East Monday Nights.

Lots of valid points here. It’s depressing.

 

[SoBeCuse]

What H.S. kids even know who Waiters is outside of Philly? He’s barely played the past few years due to chronic injuries. I guess kids would recognize Jerami Grant. But, our style of play and brand these days is really hard to watch. I can’t even imagine what the experts and coaches think. I feel bad for some of these analysts watching and doing our games. ESPN probably has a gag order on them to take it easy on SU and Boeheim with what is being displayed out there time after time.

 

[Melancer46]

I'm less worried about 'job desirability' than about the profile of the school in general, as perceived by potential recruits over the next ten years.

Kids today don't have memories or reference to our 'glory days.' No one we're recruiting knows who Derrick Coleman, Stevie Thompson, Billy Owens, Pearl are. Kids are very much about now. If we continue to finish at .500 in the ACC, and continue to reinforce our reputation as a bubble team, we will soon be Buffalo or Boston College but with a dome. Outside of our alum bubble, "Syracuse" is just some small, non-NYC college, with a big sports building. Days of us being a conference leader are over. Whatever brand equity we built in the Big East is gone. Whatever brand equity Carmelo Anthony built for us in the NBA is gone. We haven't put any starters into the NBA since MCW's(?) rookie season. These are all damning considerations for the most talented kids coming out of high school, and those are the kids who will determine our future.

As for JB—i think there's a disconnect, between the 'respect' he gets with the tv talking heads since 2003, versus how much he's actually respected by high schoolers. Of course, the kids we are being considered by will cite his HoFness, but i never had the sense that the true HS badasses, the alpha dogs, are all that impressed by his "professorial," whiny caricature. And then there's the zone. I've also long tended to doubt the competitiveness of a player who chooses to play for a zone-only program. Regardless of its occasional effectiveness, no kid in a pickup game ever shouts out, "Let's play zone!"

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team." Which is horsecrud. I joined up in 85. Zone is not our identity. It's a phase. And if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognize that the product we have since going zone only is not one we would appreciate if we weren't somehow 'involved' with Syracuse. From the outside, we are not creating legions of fans like we did when we were 'showtime in the Dome' on Big East Monday Nights.

I agree with most of this. Regarding the zone though, it's kinda tough. The track record of Syracuse's zone in terms of effectiveness is incredibly strong, far moreso than you seem willing to give it credit. Having said that, you're certainly right that it's something that other schools will use as negative recruiting and that some recruits will balk at the idea of playing in a zone, which brings you to the question of: "Do you sacrifice the effectiveness of the zone to appeal to more high-end recruits?" I think I would lean towards saying yes to that, but I can definitely understand the hesitation that fans and Boeheim would have about that considering how effective the zone has been and continues to be. Perhaps there's a way to keep the zone but sort of re-brand it, but I'm not creative enough to think of the solution there.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm less worried about 'job desirability' than about the profile of the school in general, as perceived by potential recruits over the next ten years.

Kids today don't have memories or reference to our 'glory days.' No one we're recruiting knows who Derrick Coleman, Stevie Thompson, Billy Owens, Pearl are. Kids are very much about now. If we continue to finish at .500 in the ACC, and continue to reinforce our reputation as a bubble team, we will soon be Buffalo or Boston College but with a dome. Outside of our alum bubble, "Syracuse" is just some small, non-NYC college, with a big sports building. Days of us being a conference leader are over. Whatever brand equity we built in the Big East is gone. Whatever brand equity Carmelo Anthony built for us in the NBA is gone. We haven't put any starters into the NBA since MCW's(?) rookie season. These are all damning considerations for the most talented kids coming out of high school, and those are the kids who will determine our future.

As for JB—i think there's a disconnect, between the 'respect' he gets with the tv talking heads since 2003, versus how much he's actually respected by high schoolers. Of course, the kids we are being considered by will cite his HoFness, but i never had the sense that the true HS badasses, the alpha dogs, are all that impressed by his "professorial," whiny caricature. And then there's the zone. I've also long tended to doubt the competitiveness of a player who chooses to play for a zone-only program. Regardless of its occasional effectiveness, no kid in a pickup game ever shouts out, "Let's play zone!"

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team." Which is horsecrud. I joined up in 85. Zone is not our identity. It's a phase. And if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognize that the product we have since going zone only is not one we would appreciate if we weren't somehow 'involved' with Syracuse. From the outside, we are not creating legions of fans like we did when we were 'showtime in the Dome' on Big East Monday Nights.

Yeah I’m not concerned. If we found Dino for football. We will find someone for basketball. A recent poll was just published and had Syracuse as a top 4 job in the ACC. It’s all about finding the best coach.

Oh yeah the domes getting renovated.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I'm less worried about 'job desirability' than about the profile of the school in general, as perceived by potential recruits over the next ten years.

Kids today don't have memories or reference to our 'glory days.' No one we're recruiting knows who Derrick Coleman, Stevie Thompson, Billy Owens, Pearl are. Kids are very much about now. If we continue to finish at .500 in the ACC, and continue to reinforce our reputation as a bubble team, we will soon be Buffalo or Boston College but with a dome. Outside of our alum bubble, "Syracuse" is just some small, non-NYC college, with a big sports building. Days of us being a conference leader are over. Whatever brand equity we built in the Big East is gone. Whatever brand equity Carmelo Anthony built for us in the NBA is gone. We haven't put any starters into the NBA since MCW's(?) rookie season. These are all damning considerations for the most talented kids coming out of high school, and those are the kids who will determine our future.

As for JB—i think there's a disconnect, between the 'respect' he gets with the tv talking heads since 2003, versus how much he's actually respected by high schoolers. Of course, the kids we are being considered by will cite his HoFness, but i never had the sense that the true HS badasses, the alpha dogs, are all that impressed by his "professorial," whiny caricature. And then there's the zone. I've also long tended to doubt the competitiveness of a player who chooses to play for a zone-only program. Regardless of its occasional effectiveness, no kid in a pickup game ever shouts out, "Let's play zone!"

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team." Which is horsecrud. I joined up in 85. Zone is not our identity. It's a phase. And if we're honest with ourselves, we have to recognize that the product we have since going zone only is not one we would appreciate if we weren't somehow 'involved' with Syracuse. From the outside, we are not creating legions of fans like we did when we were 'showtime in the Dome' on Big East Monday Nights.

I actually think the profile/brand will be fine. Maybe I’m in the minority, Perhaps simply a new mantra, style, and philosophy is all we need. The facilities, conference, etc., are all there. The right coach could hit the ground running and turn this into an exciting style of play again. Change can be good. I don’t see how our success as a whole will change with the current system/staff unless we are getting ultra stud recruits to play playground ball/NBA style. We aren’t getting those kinds of players.

 

[cuseinseattle]

Recruit guys who can finish. Stop recruiting guys who make for good zone players.

The rest will follow.

JB recruits the best guys for his defensive system. Not the best basketball players. And we wonder why the offense is so tough to watch?

I think he has moved away from this a little though. We have Jalen Carey and Eli Hughes this year who are good offensive players and not for the zone guys. Also Goodine next year is really talented and not a straight zone guy. I would say the same for Tyus. Pascal and Frank are zone guys but they have moved away from that in the last two cycles in my opinion.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I actually think the profile/brand will be fine. Maybe I’m in the minority, Perhaps simply a new mantra, style, and philosophy is all we need. The facilities, conference, etc., are all there. The right coach could hit the ground running and turn this into an exciting style of play again. Change can be good. I don’t see how our success as a whole will change with the current system/staff unless we are getting ultra stud recruits to play playground ball/NBA style. We aren’t getting those kinds of players.

I feel like it could change if we continue to recruit more offensive athletic kids. Someone who is 6'2" to 6'4" can play the top of the zone. The last two cycles we have Eli Hughes at the 3, Jalen Carey and Goodine coming it who is very talented. If we continue to recruit kids like that and not kids like Frank that will change a lot about our offense. We need to get up an down the court faster. I feel like Boeheim wanted that this year because he mentioned going faster in earlier pressers but it seems he has now giving up on that for whatever reason. I'm not sure if it is what he has seen in practice or that he doesn't see people being comfortable in games doing it .

 

[HOFCeluck]

Lots of you will say, "that's who we are. If you don't like it, find another team."

Townie. Townie would say that.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I think he has moved away from this a little though. We have Jalen Carey and Eli Hughes this year who are good offensive players and not for the zone guys. Also Goodine next year is really talented and not a straight zone guy. I would say the same for Tyus. Pascal and Frank are zone guys but they have moved away from that in the last two cycles in my opinion.

I really don't know. Tyus is a 6'6" shooting guard who shoots 33% from 3. Is that the best option for shooting guard or is that the best shooting guard for a tall top of the zone?

 

[SoBeCuse]

I feel like it could change if we continue to recruit more offensive athletic kids. Someone who is 6'2" to 6'4" can play the top of the zone. The last two cycles we have Eli Hughes at the 3, Jalen Carey and Goodine coming it who is very talented. If we continue to recruit kids like that and not kids like Frank that will change a lot about our offense. We need to get up an down the court faster. I feel like Boeheim wanted that this year because he mentioned going faster in earlier pressers but it seems he has now giving up on that for whatever reason. I'm not sure if it is what he has seen in practice or that he doesn't see people being comfortable in games doing it .

Yeah, who knows. I agree with a lot of this in premise. Really need those dynamic guards though and forwards who can do a lot of different things if he’s running this kind of system we’re seeing now. They don’t seem good enough and comfortable running, IMO. They don’t seem especially fast either so maybe that’s why it’s not happening. Not sure. Lots of problems.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I really don't know. Tyus is a 6'6" shooting guard who shoots 33% from 3. Is that the best option for shooting guard or is that the best shooting guard for a tall top of the zone?

Is Tyus shooting 33% cause he’s an average shooter or is he shooting that because he takes a ton of contested looks?

For the record I have this same question about other former players as well.

 

[Eagles20]

Coach designs an offense that leads to chucking up 3’s with 3,seconds left on the time clock

It does at times come to that, but they do start every trip down with an offensive set. The issue I see is a lack of players setting up their defender to get open and coming off screens tight. That is fundamentally flawed and should be picked up by the staff. They definitely struggle getting in gaps and causing defenses to rotate and create opportunities. ball movement gets very stagnant, spacing breaks down, and they revert to one on one with the shot clock winding down. I am not not saying that the staff is clear of blame, but my point was players still need to make plays based on an overall offensive structure put in place by a staff. Hustling after rebounds, free throws, careless turnovers have to be pointed out as players ownership as well.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Is Tyus shooting 33% cause he’s an average shooter or is he shooting that because he takes a ton of contested looks?

For the record I have this same question about other former players as well.

Not sure. All I know is that I wish we had a guy who shot 40% from three regardless. Why can't I get one of those?

 

[cuseinseattle]

I really don't know. Tyus is a 6'6" shooting guard who shoots 33% from 3. Is that the best option for shooting guard or is that the best shooting guard for a tall top of the zone?

He was a top 50 recruit and is a good offensive player. He isn't an elite 3 point shooter. If we had someone to pair with him who could push the ball up court I think he would be fine. I also think the percentage would be better if half his shots weren't end of shot clock or end of game contested.