SU's integration into the ACC

[Fjoinkay]

has been nothing short of fascinating to watch across all the sports. I was curious to see it play out, and at this point I'm wondering how many social scientists at universities around the world are researching this clash of cultures... especially the relationship each culture has with bias.

JB flipped his lid on the charge foul. Yes, 10.4 seconds was enough time for a miracle finish. Yes, he deserved the technical foul for going onto the court. The fact that JB flipped and has rarely ever done so in his 38 year coaching career, however, suggests pretty strongly that for him he was upset about more than just that foul call on CJ. Tony Greene's angry visage when he Tee'd up JB was revealing as well. Maybe JB said something that upset Greene, but maybe Greene had some underlying animosity towards JB that he had been carrying around. Mabye JB sensed this over the course of the game? So many possible factors could have been at play, and we will never know. I think the team will be okay, and I bet they feel felt more than ever by their coach. This could have the unintended consequence of making this team stronger.

Jay Bilas is a fantastic analyst. I feel like no one in any sport is any stronger, and I'm always grateful when he is calling a game. Last night he showed his humanity. I thought Bilas became a bully in the booth at times. He shifted from discussing competing viewpoints to pushing an agenda. I see this a lot watching college sports especially college football. Bilas was correct about the rules, but he simply refused to acknowledge any other viewpoints about certain situations during the game. His frames became tight, specific, and too often one-sided. He used language that promoted certain perceptions. And his tone was often closed and rigid.

I cannot wait to see how this SU team responds. I suggest the Yes chant in the locker room before each half. We've seen the Michigan State crowd chant Yes. I hope this SU team does it too... say Yes in unison at least 7 times. Just say it out loud at normal volume yourself and notice if anything happens in your mind and body. Go Cuse!

 

[tigerlabel]

I think this sums up Tobacco Road and what they expect from Syracuse.

 

[orangetrojan]

JB flipped his lid on the charge foul. Yes, 10.4 seconds was enough time for a miracle finish. Yes, he deserved the technical foul for going onto the court. The fact that JB flipped and has rarely ever done so in his 38 year coaching career, however, suggests pretty strongly that for him he was upset about more than just that foul call on CJ.

Maybe I'm giving JB too much credit, but I believe that the tyraid was a calculated move on his part. I don't care what anyone says, at that point the game was over before the technicals. I believe JB was looking to the remainder of the season and tournament, to send a message to his team: don't let these two losses set us back, keep that fire in you, go down swinging.

Again, maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but for him to do something so out of character like that suggests to me that a guy as smart as him had a motive, beyond what some myopic fans or announcers saw.

 

[Cowtown]

You found Tony Greene's "angry visage" revealing? Interesting.

 

[Orange Barrel]

Greene should be manning the french fry station at a fast food restaurant. Although I'm pretty sure he'd screw that up too.

 

[SRHoo]

Even if they won't openly admit it, I'd be willing to bet most long-time non-Duke ACC fans were saying "Give 'em hell JB" when he went stomping out on that court. We've all seen last night ourselves WAY too many times over the last 25 years...especially in that building.

JB just has the credibility/resume to get away with that, and what was said in the post game press conference.

 

[RenoHeel]

Even if they won't openly admit it, I'd be willing to bet most long-time non-Duke ACC fans were saying "Give 'em hell JB" when he went stomping out on that court. We've all seen last night ourselves WAY too many times over the last 25 years...especially in that building.

JB just has the credibility/resume to get away with that, and what was said in the post game press conference.

The man has a very valid point. Home cooking DOES exist. I don't like it but sometimes I look at the refs and wonder if they are physically afraid of making the right calls or is there really a blacklist for those who irritate the wrong Coach. And yes I wonder about some of the calls we get at home too.

As far as JB, Roy Williams showed some obvious disgust yesterday with a call against Wake and he slapped the scorer's table, something I've rarely seen him do. Perhaps it is just time to send a message.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You found Tony Greene's "angry visage" revealing? Interesting.

Look, sometimes people just need to be told that what they did was bullstuff.

5 straight times.

 

[Cowtown]

Look, sometimes people just need to be told that what they did was bullstuff.

5 straight times.

A quote from another thread ...

Fair enough, although I feel JB's outburst was more about the team's performance over the last few weeks, and in the next few upcoming, than it was just this one situation. Block/charge is controversial more often than not, and JB has seen thousands like it without erupting as he did, so the context of this "incident" should be taken into greater account.

As I said earlier, as the new kid on the block I think he knew at some point he was going to have to make a statement. You don't have any control over where or when it comes along, you just know instinctively when it has to be done. So, when coupled with the context mentioned above, his reaction is more accurately assessed in a more inclusive light.

I also think that if they get the Parker/Gbinije call right, or at least call Fair/Hood the same way, JB most likely doesn't react like that.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I also think that if they get the Parker/Gbinije call right, or at least call Fair/Hood the same way, JB most likely doesn't react like that.

Absolutely.

 

[Cowtown]

Absolutely.

As I think about it this morning, I'm wondering about certain things. I know a little about how ref's think. I wonder whether the Parker/Gbinije call was a makeup, even subconsciously, for that atrocious flagrant-1 call. And the Fair/Hood situation is precisely why it's bad business to play "make-up." For if you make a bad call, you just have to live with it, and more importantly, not let it lead to two bad calls.

 

[RF2044]

As I think about it this morning, I wondering about things. I know a little about how ref's think. I wonder whether the Parker/Gbinije call was a makeup, even subconsciously, for that atrocious flagrant-1 call. And the Fair/Hood situation is precisely why it's bad business to play "make-up." For if you make a bad call, you just have to live with it, and more importantly, not let it lead to two bad calls.

"Attrocious" and yet had they not called that, Gbinije would have had a layup. 2 points. Which is what we ended up getting out of that play on the FTs that were awarded.

I'm not sure that it compares to the other play you mention, considering that Parker running Gbinije over resulted in an old fashioned three point play that Duke shouldn't have gotten.

Agree with the rest of your post.

 

[NailstheCusefan12]

As I think about it this morning, I'm wondering about certain things. I know a little about how ref's think. I wonder whether the Parker/Gbinije call was a makeup, even subconsciously, for that atrocious flagrant-1 call. And the Fair/Hood situation is precisely why it's bad business to play "make-up." For if you make a bad call, you just have to live with it, and more importantly, not let it lead to two bad calls.

It almost looked like the ref wanted to call it a clear path foul when he made the initial signal, remembered that college doesn't have the rule (yet), and then threw his hands up as a flagrant-one, almost in a panic. Live, it looked like Dawkins wrapped Silent G up around the waist and pulled his jersey, but replays showed contact was minimal. Ultimately, G made the FT's and we didn't score on the extra possession, so it didn't matter.

 

[samspann1]

"Attrocious" and yet had they not called that, Gbinije would have had a layup. 2 points. Which is what we ended up getting out of that play on the FTs that were awarded.

I'm not sure that it compares to the other play you mention, considering that Parker running Gbinije over resulted in an old fashioned three point play that Duke shouldn't have gotten.
.

Yeah, the Gbinije foul call didn't really benefit SU at all, which is something that's being lost in the shuffle.

 

[Cowtown]

It almost looked like the ref wanted to call it a clear path foul when he made the initial signal, remembered that college doesn't have the rule (yet), and then threw his hands up as a flagrant-one, almost in a panic. Live, it looked like Dawkins wrapped Silent G up around the waist and pulled his jersey, but replays showed contact was minimal. Ultimately, G made the FT's and we didn't score on the extra possession, so it didn't matter.

If I'm coaching SU, I don't want the flagrant-1 call there, I want G to jam the freaking ball, which he was going to do. The Duke player did not disadvantage the SU player, but the ridiculous call certainly took away the momentum SU would have gained from it, and perversely, the rule there asserts the very situation it's purportedly in place to prevent.

 

[samspann1]

If I'm coaching SU, I don't want the flagrant-1 call there, I want G to jam the freaking ball, which he was going to do. The Duke player did not disadvantage the SU player, but the ridiculous call certainly took away the momentum SU would have gained from it, and perversely, the rule there asserts the very situation it's purportedly in place to prevent.

so, are you saying that the call actually hurt SU, and helped Duke?

 

[Cowtown]

so, are you saying that the call actually hurt SU, and helped Duke?

I try to see things from the perspective of the entire game. Did that situation hurt SU & thereby help Duke? There's no way to prove it conclusively, but I didn't like it. I'm saying I want the jam in that situation, which rewards the player and the team for a good play. I think the ref can look at it a second longer before making that call, and realize there's no disadvantage created by minimal contact, and "look it off."

Where it really hurt SU is in the fiasco at the end of the game. I strongly suspect the Parker/Gbinije call was a make-up for the bad -1 call, which all blew up completely when Fair/Hood was handled differently from P/G.

 

[Btstimpy]

Even if they won't openly admit it, I'd be willing to bet most long-time non-Duke ACC fans were saying "Give 'em hell JB" when he went stomping out on that court. We've all seen last night ourselves WAY too many times over the last 25 years...especially in that building.

JB just has the credibility/resume to get away with that, and what was said in the post game press conference.

I was right there in the "Give 'em hell" crowd. Duke always seems to get all the calls at home. But then when watching it in slow motion, it was actually a really close call. It could have gone either way. It wasn't as obvious a bad call as some I'm seen Duke get over the years.

But sometimes it's good to have a little tantrum from time to time to let the steam off.

 

[samspann1]

I try to see things from the perspective of the entire game. Did that situation hurt SU & thereby help Duke? There's no way to prove it conclusively, but I didn't like it. I'm saying I want the jam in that situation, which rewards the player and the team for a good play. I think the ref can look at it a second longer before making that call, and realize there's no disadvantage created by minimal contact, and "look it off."

Where it really hurt SU is in the fiasco at the end of the game. I strongly suspect the Parker/Gbinije call was a make-up for the bad -1 call, which all blew up completely when Fair/Hood was handled differently from P/G.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that what you're saying is true, essentially the Parker bulldoze, er blocking foul, was a makeup call for a foul called against Duke that didn't hurt them at all, in any way, shape, or form.

 

[longtimefan]

If I'm coaching SU, I don't want the flagrant-1 call there, I want G to jam the freaking ball, which he was going to do. The Duke player did not disadvantage the SU player, but the ridiculous call certainly took away the momentum SU would have gained from it, and perversely, the rule there asserts the very situation it's purportedly in place to prevent.

I'll ask that you put on your ref's cap. Would a rule such as those in hockey/lacrosse-- specifically, "play on"--work? Put your hand up, but don't blow the whistle unless/until the offensive player loses his advantage.

 

[Cowtown]

I'll ask that you put on your ref's cap. Would a rule such as those in hockey/lacrosse-- specifically, "play on"--work? Put your hand up, but don't blow the whistle unless/until the offensive player loses his advantage.

Wow, that would require a shift of tectonic proportion, lol. But off the cuff, I'd guess not, because in those other sports there is not a limit on the number of fouls one can make, ultimately resulting in disqualification.

 

[Noexcuse]

has been nothing short of fascinating to watch across all the sports. I was curious to see it play out, and at this point I'm wondering how many social scientists at universities around the world are researching this clash of cultures... especially the relationship each culture has with bias.

JB flipped his lid on the charge foul. Yes, 10.4 seconds was enough time for a miracle finish. Yes, he deserved the technical foul for going onto the court. The fact that JB flipped and has rarely ever done so in his 38 year coaching career, however, suggests pretty strongly that for him he was upset about more than just that foul call on CJ. Tony Greene's angry visage when he Tee'd up JB was revealing as well. Maybe JB said something that upset Greene, but maybe Greene had some underlying animosity towards JB that he had been carrying around. Mabye JB sensed this over the course of the game? So many possible factors could have been at play, and we will never know. I think the team will be okay, and I bet they feel felt more than ever by their coach. This could have the unintended consequence of making this team stronger.

Did JB actually get called for 2 Technicals there, because I'm not sure when the first one was called. It seemed as if Greene T'd him and tossed him at the same time.

 

[longtimefan]

Wow, that would require a shift of tectonic proportion, lol. But off the cuff, I'd guess not, because in those other sports there is not a limit on the number of fouls one can make, ultimately resulting in disqualification.

Couple of things--

You could still assess the foul after the play is completed.

And, on a more macro level, there is the whole problem of disqualifying a player for any non-malicious act. An OL doesn't get ejected after 3 false starts and 2 holding penalties. A hockey defenseman doesn't get booted for 2 hooks, 2 holds and a trip. Although the coach may decide to sit guys who are hurting their team to that extent. But, those players would still be available for re-insertion into the game.

(Anyway, right now is probably not the time for such an existential argument.)

 

[Bayside44]

I was right there in the "Give 'em hell" crowd. Duke always seems to get all the calls at home. But then when watching it in slow motion, it was actually a really close call. It could have gone either way. It wasn't as obvious a bad call as some I'm seen Duke get over the years.

But sometimes it's good to have a little tantrum from time to time to let the steam off.

It's always a closer call in slow mo for obvious reasons.

You're well educated, don't fall back on that, please.

 

[cusetown1]

It was either a block or a no call. Even the players involved were surprised, that speaks volumes.