Symir Torrence Transferring from Marquette to Syracuse

[orangecuse]

PG is the most important position in basketball. Lets hope this kid can play the position well because we are an average team at best without one and unless Joe makes a dramatic improvement we wont go far.

Without a doubt, it certainly is the most important position. Not having a high level/P5 type PG since Ennis has been at the root cause of our struggles, along without having/playing a P5 level center. (We were very fortunate that Silent G was able to convert to one as he wasn't brought here to play the position, at least not the full time PG).

It is what makes loses KR a tough pill to swallow. We finally had a legit P5 level PG who could actually penetrate, break down the D, etc. and now we have a gap there...again. Hoping for such a critical skill set, or a "that would come in handy" type sentiment should never be the case at this level of play...at least not as consistently as it has been these past several years. It should be an absolute prerequisite at the position. It remains beyond frustrating.

 

[djcon57]

Symir was also 43.1% from 3 his last year of prep ball. I don’t have stats from the years before that but he was an excellent outside shooter when he played in Syracuse as well. Don’t have his percentage but I know he made 60 3 pointers in one season when he was in HS here.

He is a legitimate excellent outside shooter.

I hope Kadary does well at Seton Hall. It is time to let him go. He is gone and isn’t coming back.

Great. I hope that it’s true...i was referring to the direct reference in your post. I thought it lacked context

my point really has nothing to do with Kadary and his leaving but more that consensus wasn’t he wasn’t a good outside shooter with similar stats

 

[MikeSU02]

Joe needs to watch tape of Trevor Cooney all summer. He needs to be relentless on defense every possession and work his tail off and be smart on offense. His big problem is when he isn't playing well on offense or even when he is- on defense he goes from 8-9 great possessions to 3 or 4 straight where he takes the play off. It's one thing for a kid to not be able to- it's another to simply decide not to. That needs to change and if it does we will be much better for it.

Add that to being able to move north/south and get the ball out of his hands quicker.

I wrote this in my other response to you, but he needs to become a poor man's Kyle Lowry. I honestly hope he NEVER watches tape of Cooney.

We need him to be a PG. Whether we think he is one or not, JB is going to play him there and he needs to 1) get in the best shape of his life and 2) use his thickness to his advantage - just like Lowry.

We can't have another 2G out there with Buddy. He needs to commit to the position and he needs to do a summer of Heat Culture training and come back like a brick.

I mean this, we need him to commit to being a PG. This will shock some people, but I'm rooting for the kid. But he absolutely needs to bring out his Kyle Lowry. He will never be the biggest, strongest or fastest. He's not a great shooter, but he can be the straw that stirs the drink and he can be more efficient and can get hot.

 

[rrlbees]

Great. I hope that it’s true...i was referring to the direct reference in your post. I thought it lacked context

my point really has nothing to do with Kadary and his leaving but more that consensus wasn’t he wasn’t a good outside shooter with similar stats

neither one took enough during the season this year to gain any insight. K definitely improves during the season as you could see he was more confident with his form. But he was at 22% before the NCAA’s where he went 3-3 I believe. If I recall correctly it was vs SDSt where he made a couple of them up 20+ so I’m not sure how much they were contested. But there’s no doubt he got better. Sometimes confidence is everything and I’m sure GMac worked with him on his form.

 

[djcon57]

neither one took enough during the season this year to gain any insight. K definitely improves during the season as you could see he was more confident with his form. But he was at 22% before the NCAA’s where he went 3-3 I believe. If I recall correctly it was vs SDSt where he made a couple of them up 20+ so I’m not sure how much they were contested. But there’s no doubt he got better. Sometimes confidence is everything and I’m sure GMac worked with him on his form.

absolutely. we don’t know the context of Symir attempts either...other than its been 2 years for Symir taking less than a 3 a game.

I just feel like it might be tough for him to become someone that teams are actually concerned about. As long as hes not a liability like some on that Marquette board linked suggested, his other skills are more than enough to cover the 8-10 mins a game he’ll play

 

[OttoinGrotto]

But he was at 22% before the NCAA’s where he went 3-3 I believe. If I recall correctly it was vs SDSt where he made a couple of them up 20+ so I’m not sure how much they were contested.

One was open, one was a heave to beat the shot clock.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

yes, he was a 37.5 percent shooter from 3 the year before.

9-24

For reference, Kadary was 7-21 last year.

So Symir is a future lottery pick, too. That’s nice.

 

[Orangezoo]

I wrote this in my other response to you, but he needs to become a poor man's Kyle Lowry. I honestly hope he NEVER watches tape of Cooney.

We need him to be a PG. Whether we think he is one or not, JB is going to play him there and he needs to 1) get in the best shape of his life and 2) use his thickness to his advantage - just like Lowry.

We can't have another 2G out there with Buddy. He needs to commit to the position and he needs to do a summer of Heat Culture training and come back like a brick.

I mean this, we need him to commit to being a PG. This will shock some people, but I'm rooting for the kid. But he absolutely needs to bring out his Kyle Lowry. He will never be the biggest, strongest or fastest. He's not a great shooter, but he can be the straw that stirs the drink and he can be more efficient and can get hot. No

And I remember now my bad. Completely agree

 

[MikeSU02]

And I remember now my bad. Completely agree

I could not think of another college PG I wanted him to be, so I had to go NBA. Love me some Kyle Lowry (legitimately). I think it's why you saw Kawhi trying to get him to the Clips.

Joe can't be Lowry, but he can be OUR Lowry, if that makes sense?

 

[Orangezoo]

I could not think of another college PG I wanted him to be, so I had to go NBA. Love me some Kyle Lowry (legitimately). I think it's why you saw Kawhi trying to get him to the Clips.

Joe can't be Lowry, but he can be OUR Lowry, if that makes sense?

Yep. Joe has had two years to realize he can play at this level and that he can play at the point. That said the path to success means working his ass off this summer to be that guy. It's the next step for a kid who just has to put the work in and not rely on the things that he can do in some games.

 

[kcsu]

Joe needs to watch tape of Trevor Cooney all summer. He needs to be relentless on defense every possession and work his tail off and be smart on offense. His big problem is when he isn't playing well on offense or even when he is- on defense he goes from 8-9 great possessions to 3 or 4 straight where he takes the play off. It's one thing for a kid to not be able to- it's another to simply decide not to. That needs to change and if it does we will be much better for it.

Add that to being able to move north/south and get the ball out of his hands quicker.

Unfortunately Joe doesn't have half the athleticism of The Coon Dog. In addition Trevor is half a foot taller than Joe. In a game of horse Joe is a better shooter. In a real game Trevor brings more to the table.
I know that Joe is the home town boy. The second coming of Little G. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. Joe is a decent D1 2 playing out of position. He isnt going to get any taller or longer. He is a liability on D and average at the point. Nobody is going to wave a magic wand and change this. His limitations are physical. At best Joe develops a great handle, limits East and West and stops chucking from half court.
At best the new guy beats him out and Joe plays a great roll spelling Buddy and S off the bench. Bottom line is its going to be a challenge for him to compete against the top tier of the ACC as a 1.

 

[Niastri]

Joe needs to watch tape of Trevor Cooney all summer. He needs to be relentless on defense every possession and work his tail off and be smart on offense. His big problem is when he isn't playing well on offense or even when he is- on defense he goes from 8-9 great possessions to 3 or 4 straight where he takes the play off. It's one thing for a kid to not be able to- it's another to simply decide not to. That needs to change and if it does we will be much better for it.

Add that to being able to move north/south and get the ball out of his hands quicker.

Speaking of Girard, I think last year his focus was on getting bigger and stronger. He did that well, but at some cost to his conditioning. If not for Covid, maybe he does a better job with both. Then he caught Covid and that hurt his ability to play into shape. My hope is that he plays a lot more like Cooney or Rautins or McNamara next year.

Torrence could be a nice change of pace guard for both Girard and Buddy. He has the physical talent and hopefully blossoms in his third year post high school, and for the first time at the school he really wanted to attend.

 

[Orangezoo]

Unfortunately Joe doesn't have half the athleticism of The Coon Dog. In addition Trevor is half a foot taller than Joe. In a game of horse Joe is a better shooter. In a real game Trevor brings more to the table.
I know that Joe is the home town boy. The second coming of Little G. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. Joe is a decent D1 2 playing out of position. He isnt going to get any taller or longer. He is a liability on D and average at the point. Nobody is going to wave a magic wand and change this. His limitations are physical. At best Joe develops a great handle, limits East and West and stops chucking from half court.
At best the new guy beats him out and Joe plays a great roll spelling Buddy and S off the bench. Bottom line is its going to be a challenge for him to compete against the top tier of the ACC as a 1.

Yes but you are missing something. Throw away the metrics and let's stop the D3 D2 size and athleticism rhetoric embedded here.

It's about mentality and skill now. Having played enough PG in my life ( not college of course), you need to understand where your teammates are going to be and have that commitment that you can beat your man and attack. Nailing a 3 is nice but it's one way . Joe has to own that I'm gonna smoke you mentality as a playmaker.

Joe may not be an elite athlete but there are plenty of ways to beat your man without being 6-4 and with a 35 inch vert or elite agility/speed. It takes work and a commitment to it and being more aggressive and committed to your toolkit of moves. It's taking what you can get.

Buddy might be taller but he is certainly not using his athleticism to beat his man. He is using screens, angles and understanding matchups. Joe should be capable of doing the same. I don't buy for a second that he can't develop. That is bias working into your opinion.

Will he make that commitment and become a guy who mentally can take that role on and own it? To me that is the bigger question than if he can. While he has had his struggles if he was aD3 level athlete or even D2 level he wouldn't have had even the nominal success he has had so far.

The whole someone else has to beat him out crap ended with Kadary. One of the two PGs or both need to come in ready to be a leader and grab the keys not hold their hand out for them.

Also the hometown aspect has nothing to do with it. Those of you who are going to sit stuck in the world of being upset about Kadary and giving up on Joe getting better are going to have a long miserable summer as an SU hoops fan.

 

[rrlbees]

One was open, one was a heave to beat the shot clock.

your memory is better than mine. You must be under 65.

 

[albanycuse]

Yes but you are missing something. Throw away the metrics and let's stop the D3 D2 size and athleticism rhetoric embedded here.

It's about mentality and skill now. Having played enough PG in my life ( not college of course), you need to understand where your teammates are going to be and have that commitment that you can beat your man and attack. Nailing a 3 is nice but it's one way . Joe has to own that I'm gonna smoke you mentality as a playmaker.

Joe may not be an elite athlete but there are plenty of ways to beat your man without being 6-4 and with a 35 inch vert or elite agility/speed. It takes work and a commitment to it and being more aggressive and committed to your toolkit of moves. It's taking what you can get.

Buddy might be taller but he is certainly not using his athleticism to beat his man. He is using screens, angles and understanding matchups. Joe should be capable of doing the same. I don't buy for a second that he can't develop. That is bias working into your opinion.

Will he make that commitment and become a guy who mentally can take that role on and own it? To me that is the bigger question than if he can. While he has had his struggles if he was aD3 level athlete or even D2 level he wouldn't have had even the nominal success he has had so far.

The whole someone else has to beat him out crap ended with Kadary. One of the two PGs or both need to come in ready to be a leader and grab the keys not hold their hand out for them.

Also the hometown aspect has nothing to do with it. Those of you who are going to sit stuck in the world of being upset about Kadary and giving up on Joe getting better are going to have a long miserable summer as an SU hoops fan.

Except buddy comes off screens to shoot. He doesn’t have pg responsibilities at forward.

Joe’s the one who’s supposed to create and be the playmaker being the pg.

 

[Orangezoo]

Except buddy comes off screens to shoot. He doesn’t have pg responsibilities at forward.

Joe’s the one who’s supposed to create and be the playmaker being the pg.

He comes off screens to shoot, make a move into a pull up or drives it if he has the matchup. Beating your man is about being confident and decisive. Using angles and ball handling applies to beating your man to force the defense to react to dish it too. It may be a different end game but the concept of winning that matchup is the same. As a PG you have to win and and then make a decision from that point. Knowing the offense and where teammates will be as well as being aggressive and commiting vs being passive are key. Joe is comfortable being aggressive as a shooter and passing on the break. He needs to work on it in the half court and off the drive. His HS success was built off jump shots. He has a respectable handle that needs to get better. He actually has good vision and is a good passer just needs to make a play off the bounce to find the openings to maximize that skillset. It's there- and it is on him to put the work in and make it happen.

 

[shu 49]

Joe needs to watch tape of Trevor Cooney all summer. He needs to be relentless on defense every possession and work his tail off and be smart on offense. His big problem is when he isn't playing well on offense or even when he is- on defense he goes from 8-9 great possessions to 3 or 4 straight where he takes the play off. It's one thing for a kid to not be able to- it's another to simply decide not to. That needs to change and if it does we will be much better for it.

Add that to being able to move north/south and get the ball out of his hands quicker.

I completely agree. He needs to be way more tenacious. If next year he leaves the quart be the hardest worker on the team, we are gonna be ok. As u said though it’s a choice.

 

[shu 49]

Unfortunately Joe doesn't have half the athleticism of The Coon Dog. In addition Trevor is half a foot taller than Joe. In a game of horse Joe is a better shooter. In a real game Trevor brings more to the table.
I know that Joe is the home town boy. The second coming of Little G. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. Joe is a decent D1 2 playing out of position. He isnt going to get any taller or longer. He is a liability on D and average at the point. Nobody is going to wave a magic wand and change this. His limitations are physical. At best Joe develops a great handle, limits East and West and stops chucking from half court.
At best the new guy beats him out and Joe plays a great roll spelling Buddy and S off the bench. Bottom line is its going to be a challenge for him to compete against the top tier of the ACC as a 1.

Even if Joe gets beat out Jim won’t change who plays more as we already have proof of that sadly.

 

[albanycuse]

He comes off screens to shoot, make a move into a pull up or drives it if he has the matchup. Beating your man is about being confident and decisive. Using angles and ball handling applies to beating your man to force the defense to react to dish it too. It may be a different end game but the concept of winning that matchup is the same. As a PG you have to win and and then make a decision from that point. Knowing the offense and where teammates will be as well as being aggressive and commiting vs being passive are key. Joe is comfortable being aggressive as a shooter and passing on the break. He needs to work on it in the half court and off the drive. His HS success was built off jump shots. He has a respectable handle that needs to get better. He actually has good vision and is a good passer just needs to make a play off the bounce to find the openings to maximize that skillset. It's there- and it is on him to put the work in and make it happen.

He was never really a playmaker or pg per se. In high school he was the offense he just shot tons of shots and was better than the mediocre competition. In aau he played off the ball a lot and was decent knocking down 3’s. He needs to actually learn the position of pg when he’s surrounded by players who can actually score and he’s not the focus of the offense like he was in high school. That’s part of the problem as well imo.

 

[Orangezoo]

He was never really a playmaker or pg per se. In high school he was the offense he just shot tons of shots and was better than the mediocre competition. In aau he played off the ball a lot and was decent knocking down 3’s. He needs to actually learn the position of pg when he’s surrounded by players who can actually score and he’s not the focus of the offense like he was in high school. That’s part of the problem as well imo.

And his freshman year here he stepped right into having immediate success. Now this past year, his flaws and weaknesses, accelerated at times fighting CoVid were laid bare. Thus it's the ideal summer to commit to the PG position. The opportunity is there and he clearly is talented enough to make it happen if he commits. We won't know the punchline till fall.

 

[TheCusian]

I still think Joe hasn’t hit his max in “fitness” or shooting. He can be a much better shooter than he has been. Some of that is shot selection, obviously.

I don’t think we’ve seen “A” game Joe yet. He needs to really push this off-season to make that possible.

 

[RoatanCuse]

Unfortunately Joe doesn't have half the athleticism of The Coon Dog. In addition Trevor is half a foot taller than Joe. In a game of horse Joe is a better shooter. In a real game Trevor brings more to the table.
I know that Joe is the home town boy. The second coming of Little G. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen. Joe is a decent D1 2 playing out of position. He isnt going to get any taller or longer. He is a liability on D and average at the point. Nobody is going to wave a magic wand and change this. His limitations are physical. At best Joe develops a great handle, limits East and West and stops chucking from half court.
At best the new guy beats him out and Joe plays a great roll spelling Buddy and S off the bench. Bottom line is its going to be a challenge for him to compete against the top tier of the ACC as a 1.

Well done!

 

[albanycuse]

And his freshman year here he stepped right into having immediate success. Now this past year, his flaws and weaknesses, accelerated at times fighting CoVid were laid bare. Thus it's the ideal summer to commit to the PG position. The opportunity is there and he clearly is talented enough to make it happen if he commits. We won't know the punchline till fall.

Having other guards and Hughes certainly helped him tremendously last season. This year all the pressure was on him and he wasn’t ready to run the team.

 

[Trueblue25]

Its not fair to compare Symir’s AAU production to Joe’s.

Symir reclassified and had no senior year. Symir was a hs class younger.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Its not fair to compare Symir’s AAU production to Joe’s.

Symir reclassified and had no senior year. Symir was a hs class younger.

Sure it’s fair. They have the same amount of eligibility left.