Syracuse hiring Alex Kline as GM

[rrlbees]

I was speaking to NIL specifically. Nothing I stated was related to revenue sharing. Supposedly there’s other donors that stepped up.

Also don’t forget the $1m NIL bump we get from that Vegas tournament.

 

[AcAndAc]

Also don’t forget the $1m NIL bump we get from that Vegas tournament.

Woo-hoo!

 

[cuseattle]

I always greatly appreciate when people share their thoughts about practices here. It's always a fun read.

However, I also learned a lonnnnng time ago to dump a gigantic pile of salt on those thoughts. In 25+ years of Syracuse sports message boarding I think, on balance, more practice reports have been wrong than right, in terms of being predictive of what actually happens on the floor or field in games.

The point is that building an argument or rationale based on practice reports is inherently faulty.

I miss more regular practice reports. I imagine most big programs have reduced access similarly to Syracuse. (tried a search for articles but got nothing)

 

[Cheriehoop]

I miss more regular practice reports. I imagine most big programs have reduced access similarly to Syracuse. (tried a search for articles but got nothing)

I used to love watching when they were in the dome practicing. Learned so much just from watching. Really miss how open it was back then. I often wonder if they could even have anything in the Melo Center comparable to making players run the steps up up up up in the dome just not for conditioning but if someone messed up. There was so much room in the dome they could have stations with baskets in the dome for the different player positions. Bernie Fine could be working with, for example, Reafsnyder, Lazor and Wallace, Hill on rebounding on a side basket while a full court scrimmage could be going on the main court. Then some others working on free throws at another temp basket. Loved seeing when they had an actual full intrasquad scrimmage. Met Igor at one of those practices back then.

 

[DilemaCuse]

The word was that Westry didn't attack his injury rehab all that vigorously and the staff thought anything they'd get from him this season was a bonus.

So maybe that came too late to do anything in the portal (although they did bring in Petar late, so maybe an int'l PG would have been a better move). But it was well known that Westry couldn't be counted on for the 2024-25 team.

Not disputing because I appreciate your posts but westry hadn't played in 2 years and didn't attack his rehab? Like your a former top 40 recruit, forget playing professionally, do you even want to get back on the court and continue the NIL gravy train for a few more years? Just bizarre.
This guy is the Ben Simmons of SU bball.

 

[longtimefan]

I think it will be difficult for us to land true difference makers / elite guys, because our program is really, really down right now. And because those type of transfers will have many suitors, and most will want to WIN. They can probably get the same money as we can offer, but also go somewhere where they can get to the NCAA tournament.

Maybe there are some guys we could overpay to land, but then we also have to deal with having somewhat limited NIL funds. And since we're going to need at least four transfers, since we'll have so much attrition this offseason. So... are we going to overpay to land multiple guys? Or can we even do that?

Chances are, we'll get decent depth pieces that fit Kline's model. I just question whether those guys will move the needle the way some are crossing their fingers for.

It would be different if we had a solid nucleus / foundation, and needed a piece or two to make the mixture pop. But if we lose Freeman [as some have suggested], then there isn't that nucleus in place. Hence, why I am not expecting miracles.

Long term, new coach -- I think Kline could work his magic and help get things back on track. But turning over the roster nearly fully this offseason? Not a formula for success next year, in all likelihood.

I think many are underestimating the volatility of the current college basketball world. In the ACC, Louisville is the example--not one player back from last year's roster and they are more than decent. Kentucky also turned the whole roster over, and they are Top 25. Elsewhere, Missouri was 0-18 last season in the SEC and is in the Top 25 this season. Colorado went the other way, from a tournament team to last in the Big 12.

It's just so difficult to predict success from year to year. The one stabilizing factor going forward (as mentioned above) is the end of the Covid anomaly, which means we won't be seeing all of these 5th (and 6th) year players showing up on new rosters.

 

[jdubs30]

I think many are underestimating the volatility of the current college basketball world. In the ACC, Louisville is the example--not one player back from last year's roster and they are more than decent. Kentucky also turned the whole roster over, and they are Top 25. Elsewhere, Missouri was 0-18 last season in the SEC and is in the Top 25 this season. Colorado went the other way, from a tournament team to last in the Big 12.

It's just so difficult to predict success from year to year. The one stabilizing factor going forward (as mentioned above) is the end of the Covid anomaly, which means we won't be seeing all of these 5th (and 6th) year players showing up on new rosters.

Louisville and Kentucky absolutely crushed it in the portal

 

[longtimefan]

Louisville and Kentucky absolutely crushed it in the portal

I assume Missouri did too. Whatever the reasons, there is an opportunity to turn things around in a hurry in the current college BB world.

And the portal can be fickle. Look at FSU football. Hitting the portal jackpot one year and going 13-0. Crapping out in the portal the next, and finishing 2-10.

 

[Newhouser]

Who picks the talent we pursue Red or the GM? If it's the prior I am concerned.

 

[DilemaCuse]

I think many are underestimating the volatility of the current college basketball world. In the ACC, Louisville is the example--not one player back from last year's roster and they are more than decent. Kentucky also turned the whole roster over, and they are Top 25. Elsewhere, Missouri was 0-18 last season in the SEC and is in the Top 25 this season. Colorado went the other way, from a tournament team to last in the Big 12.

It's just so difficult to predict success from year to year. The one stabilizing factor going forward (as mentioned above) is the end of the Covid anomaly, which means we won't be seeing all of these 5th (and 6th) year players showing up on new rosters.

The Orange Nation guys cite Missouri as the example as to why Red deserves a 3rd year as Dennis Gates went 0-18 and has them playing well this season. I admit that is quite the turnaround with the same coach but that is more the exception and not the rule.

 

[atlanticuse]

Who picks the talent we pursue Red or the GM? If it's the prior I am concerned.

1. GM scouts and outlines the talent
2. Recruiters have to recruit (asst coaches with some help from head coact)
3. Portal is a bit squirrely since it can be remote/Zoom or in person
4. Player negotiates NIL, etc.
5. Player chooses to join program (s)he likes and feels will be successful

So #1 and maybe #4 are GM, but ... much of this is on the coaching staff (and players/team if they get involved - not sure).

 

[Cusefan0307]

1. GM scouts and outlines the talent
2. Recruiters have to recruit (asst coaches with some help from head coact)
3. Portal is a bit squirrely since it can be remote/Zoom or in person
4. Player negotiates NIL, etc.
5. Player chooses to join program (s)he likes and feels will be successful

So #1 and maybe #4 are GM, but ... much of this is on the coaching staff (and players/team if they get involved - not sure).

I take it you didn’t read the article I posted last week that you laughed at?

According to that Kline makes the recommendation and Red has final say.

 

[Chip]

I used to love watching when they were in the dome practicing. Learned so much just from watching. Really miss how open it was back then. I often wonder if they could even have anything in the Melo Center comparable to making players run the steps up up up up in the dome just not for conditioning but if someone messed up. There was so much room in the dome they could have stations with baskets in the dome for the different player positions. Bernie Fine could be working with, for example, Reafsnyder, Lazor and Wallace, Hill on rebounding on a side basket while a full court scrimmage could be going on the main court. Then some others working on free throws at another temp basket. Loved seeing when they had an actual full intrasquad scrimmage. Met Igor at one of those practices back then.

I like stories that have a good beginning, and good middle, and then really stick the landing at the end.

This one has it all.

 

[pwong]

The Orange Nation guys cite Missouri as the example as to why Red deserves a 3rd year as Dennis Gates went 0-18 and has them playing well this season. I admit that is quite the turnaround with the same coach but that is more the exception and not the rule.

Mizzou also overachieved and went to the 2nd round of the NCAA tourney the year before going 0-18. The Orange Nation guys are such big homers.

 

[RF2044]

I think many are underestimating the volatility of the current college basketball world. In the ACC, Louisville is the example--not one player back from last year's roster and they are more than decent. Kentucky also turned the whole roster over, and they are Top 25. Elsewhere, Missouri was 0-18 last season in the SEC and is in the Top 25 this season. Colorado went the other way, from a tournament team to last in the Big 12.

It's just so difficult to predict success from year to year. The one stabilizing factor going forward (as mentioned above) is the end of the Covid anomaly, which means we won't be seeing all of these 5th (and 6th) year players showing up on new rosters.

Basketball is definitely a sport where you can turn things around quickly -- no argument there.

But Louisville had a proven head coach, with a proven track record, to go along with that roster turnover. So, a coach who knew what he was doing + an influx of decent players = better overall success.

I just think it is a complete roll of the dice, given our current situation. I get the "damn the torpedoes" philosophy, given that it can't be worse than this year, but it seems like a hail mary to me.

 

[Consigliere]

Basketball is definitely a sport where you can turn things around quickly -- no argument there.

But Louisville had a proven head coach, with a proven track record, to go along with that roster turnover. So, a coach who knew what he was doing + an influx of decent players = better overall success.

I just think it is a complete roll of the dice, given our current situation. I get the "damn the torpedoes" philosophy, given that it can't be worse than this year, but it seems like a hail mary to me.

And also brought in three key transfers from his previous program. The teams that have been excelling in March have had some degree of roster continuity that they supplement with new talent. A full rebuild without any program continuity is generally not the golden ticket to the Final Four. Look at K-State who had one of the highest ranked portal classes in the country. They started the year flat awful bur started to grl about a month ago and have beaten Iowa State, Kansas and Arizona in recent weeks. Yet they are still only 13-13 on the season.

 

[RF2044]

And also brought in three key transfers from his previous program. The teams that have been excelling in March have had some degree of roster continuity that they supplement with new talent. A full rebuild without any program continuity is generally not the golden ticket to the Final Four. Look at K-State who had one of the highest ranked portal classes in the country. They started the year flat awful bur started to grl about a month ago and have beaten Iowa State, Kansas and Arizona in recent weeks. Yet they are still only 13-13 on the season.

Agree 100%.

This is all still new, but my guess is that the teams that will use the portal most effectively aren't just the ones who will throw $$$ at the portal, but the ones who use it to supplement an already strong foundation / nucleus, to help take that mix to the next level.

 

[Consigliere]

Agree 100%.

This is all still new, but my guess is that the teams that will use the portal most effectively aren't just the ones who will throw $$$ at the portal, but the ones who use it to supplement an already strong foundation / nucleus, to help take that mix to the next level.

Exactly. Which makes you question throwing a reported $800k at Eddie. As good as he has been (and he certainly has his faults as well), he, as well as the other additions, was no more than a one year rental. The "foundation" was really just JJ and Bell. I suppose you could argue that pairing Eddie wil Leffew (who reneged on a commitment from what I hear) or Mack (who we backed off on when we thought Leffew WAS committed) along with a five star phenom in a healthy Freeman could have arguably been a tournament team, but in retrospect we are where we are, I wonder if having a GM in place would have led to a different outcome.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The Orange Nation guys cite Missouri as the example as to why Red deserves a 3rd year as Dennis Gates went 0-18 and has them playing well this season. I admit that is quite the turnaround with the same coach but that is more the exception and not the rule.

Did they do a deep dive on why Mizzou sucked last season and are good this season? I assume not.

Last year Mizzou lost 2 of their 3 starting guards (including their best player this season) in the beginning of the season, plus had a slew of other injuries to primary guys. They were in a tough SEC (not as tough as this season, but still very good) and they had a some middling transfers. Gates kept the guys that did well and added a boatload of talent.

Gates at least had a track record of developing a program. Cleveland St hadn't had a winning program in 5 years. Gates put them in the tourney in his 2nd year there. Won 2 regular season conference championships in 3 seasons. He put Mizzou back in the tourney in his first season there after they had only been there 2 out of the previous 9 seasons.

Syracuse does not have the talent base that Gates had last season and Red doesn't have the track record Gates has.
A comment from a Mizzou fan: "Honestly, I feel like the fact that this team never stopped playing their asses off is a testament to how good of a coach Gates is. He just didn't have enough healthy talent left ..."

Can anyone say the same about Red's teams with a straight face? They're not two sides of the same coin.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Agree 100%.

This is all still new, but my guess is that the teams that will use the portal most effectively aren't just the ones who will throw $$$ at the portal, but the ones who use it to supplement an already strong foundation / nucleus, to help take that mix to the next level.

This is how they're doing it. Very few successful teams are built around a pile of 1-year guys.

How To Build A Roster In The Modern Portal Era

A study on the roster construction strategies that lead to success for high majors

blog.evanmiya.com

 

[djcon57]

Did they do a deep dive on why Mizzou sucked last season and are good this season? I assume not.

Last year Mizzou lost 2 of their 3 starting guards (including their best player this season) in the beginning of the season, plus had a slew of other injuries to primary guys. They were in a tough SEC (not as tough as this season, but still very good) and they had a some middling transfers. Gates kept the guys that did well and added a boatload of talent.

Gates at least had a track record of developing a program. Cleveland St hadn't had a winning program in 5 years. Gates put them in the tourney in his 2nd year there. Won 2 regular season conference championships in 3 seasons. He put Mizzou back in the tourney in his first season there after they had only been there 2 out of the previous 9 seasons.

Syracuse does not have the talent base that Gates had last season and Red doesn't have the track record Gates has.
A comment from a Mizzou fan: "Honestly, I feel like the fact that this team never stopped playing their asses off is a testament to how good of a coach Gates is. He just didn't have enough healthy talent left ..."

Can anyone say the same about Red's teams with a straight face? They're not two sides of the same coin.

They also WENT TO THE TOURNEY IN HIS FIRST YEAR. (Edit: ooops, sorry see that you mentioned that, seems like a pretty big difference to me)

The whole thing is making the tourney. If Red made the tourney last year, it's a different story

 

[Fly Rodder]

Exactly. Which makes you question throwing a reported $800k at Eddie. As good as he has been (and he certainly has his faults as well), he, as well as the other additions, was no more than a one year rental. The "foundation" was really just JJ and Bell. I suppose you could argue that pairing Eddie wil Leffew (who reneged on a commitment from what I hear) or Mack (who we backed off on when we thought Leffew WAS committed) along with a five star phenom in a healthy Freeman could have arguably been a tournament team, but in retrospect we are where we are, I wonder if having a GM in place would have led to a different outcome.

From the Evan Miya article:
"Having talented freshmen and transfers on the roster is not bad, but recruiting these players should not come at the expense of losing similarly valuable players already on the roster."

For example, SU recruited Freeman and did not prioritize keeping Maliq who was similarly valuable and already on the roster. Injuries aside, most likely Freeman leaves because SU is bringing in a freshman at the same position that Freeman played. Get more than one season from your best players.

Also, too, "The results aren't pretty for teams who rely heavily on freshmen but aren’t among the nation’s elite rosters"

 

[MamesJungro]

What is the point of framing Kline as a GM when he doesn't appear to be managing anything? It's not like he can fire Red and/or assistants, right? So basically, a Director of Recruiting?

 

[DilemaCuse]

What is the point of framing Kline as a GM when he doesn't appear to be managing anything? It's not like he can fire Red and/or assistants, right? So basically, a Director of Recruiting?

Or Director of Scouting id call it as well with some analytics and efficiencies review of player and maybe placing a dollar value on player for NIL purposes

 

[MamesJungro]

Exactly. Which makes you question throwing a reported $800k at Eddie. As good as he has been (and he certainly has his faults as well), he, as well as the other additions, was no more than a one year rental. The "foundation" was really just JJ and Bell. I suppose you could argue that pairing Eddie wil Leffew (who reneged on a commitment from what I hear) or Mack (who we backed off on when we thought Leffew WAS committed) along with a five star phenom in a healthy Freeman could have arguably been a tournament team, but in retrospect we are where we are, I wonder if having a GM in place would have led to a different outcome.

Eddie's profile is all wrong. What is the most baffling to me is that our two best returning offensive players (Bell and JJ) are horrific defenders. This was not a secret to anyone. To compensate, we desperately needed a rim protector to clean up messes, and we spent all of our money on a guy who can't jump. It's maddening.