Syracuse hiring Alex Kline as GM

[Cusefan0307]

I would argue their misses were entirely in portal recruiting.

But it was a major failure. They just didn't get the guys they wanted. Lampkin was a very good pickup, but he needed to be the second best player in the class. Getting one of the three best point guards in the class was much more important to the team's success than getting Lampkin.

If money was an issue, throwing all of Lampkin's money at (for instance) Richmond would have made more sense. Getting a live body low major center who could catch alley oops and block shots, along with Richmond, and this team is way better.

But maybe they knew McLeod wasn't going to play, and they thought Westry was the guy.

Without knowing what the staff thought they knew last spring, we can't retrace their roster building decision making.

We will see how much the analytics team makes a difference this upcoming year. We will also see if our NIL money has improved to a more competitive position.

In spite of everything, a healthy roster with McLeod, Westry and Freeman and an effective Bell would look entirely different going down the stretch. Carlos, Davis and Taylor were not supposed to be starters or even critical rotation pieces. But when you have enough injuries, your depth becomes your starters.

Westry hasn’t played in 3 friggin years. It was batsht crazy for anyone to ever thing of him as a contributor here after he missed all of last season.

 

[Niastri]

Westry hasn’t played in 3 friggin years. It was batsht crazy for anyone to ever thing of him as a contributor here after he missed all of last season.

Westry was practicing this time last year... Whatever health issue he has isn't related to his knees. Rust could be expected, but if they evaluated him as a better than average ACC starter after watching him practice against Mintz and Copeland, you could understand them penciling him in before whatever took him out happened.

 

[Scooch]

I would argue their misses were entirely in portal recruiting.

But it was a major failure. They just didn't get the guys they wanted. Lampkin was a very good pickup, but he needed to be the second best player in the class. Getting one of the three best point guards in the class was much more important to the team's success than getting Lampkin.

If money was an issue, throwing all of Lampkin's money at (for instance) Richmond would have made more sense. Getting a live body low major center who could catch alley oops and block shots, along with Richmond, and this team is way better.

But maybe they knew McLeod wasn't going to play, and they thought Westry was the guy.

Without knowing what the staff thought they knew last spring, we can't retrace their roster building decision making.

We will see how much the analytics team makes a difference this upcoming year. We will also see if our NIL money has improved to a more competitive position.

In spite of everything, a healthy roster with McLeod, Westry and Freeman and an effective Bell would look entirely different going down the stretch. Carlos, Davis and Taylor were not supposed to be starters or even critical rotation pieces. But when you have enough injuries, your depth becomes your starters.

Edit: even Dakota Leffew has a 4.7 BPM off the bench for Georgia. Carlos, as mostly a starter, has a -1.7 BPM. Huge fail in recruiting, one way or the other.

All fair. My only quibble is about Westry. By several accounts, the staff had a strong inkling anything he contributed this season would be a bonus. They weren't relying on him. Which makes the portal acquisition failures all the more acute.

 

[Fly Rodder]

Westry was practicing this time last year

IIRC, while there was jubilation in Syracuse on Chance transfer news, Andrew Slater was throwing cold water all over it and got called an idiot.

 

[AZOrange]

Westry was practicing this time last year... Whatever health issue he has isn't related to his knees. Rust could be expected, but if they evaluated him as a better than average ACC starter after watching him practice against Mintz and Copeland, you could understand them penciling him in before whatever took him out happened.

Not related

 

[Cusefan0307]

Westry was practicing this time last year... Whatever health issue he has isn't related to his knees. Rust could be expected, but if they evaluated him as a better than average ACC starter after watching him practice against Mintz and Copeland, you could understand them penciling him in before whatever took him out happened.

I’m talking about last offseason. There was no shot this year he was going to be a contributor. It was wishful thinking.

 

[Niastri]

I’m talking about last offseason. There was no shot this year he was going to be a contributor. It was wishful thinking.

Without knowing what Red and his staff knew, and when they know it, we can't really backtrack their decision making.

They were watching Mintz and Westry in practice every day... Whatever you think of Mintz, he's a very good player, and we had heard Westry was playing him even in practice.

If they decided to roll the dice on Westry being healthy, after months of watching him practice, with Leffew and Carlos as backups, you can't argue against it. Missing on Leffew was a big miss? No doubt. But if they thought they'd get a Westry that could compete effectively against Mintz, you can understand their lack of urgency.

Nobody knew Westry was going to get sick, so he can't even play at all this season.

It's not like Red is going to do a post mortem with us explaining his decision making, when he knew what he knew, etc. We, as fans, are just speculating.

And we're pissed off at the lousy season, so we're not exactly going to give Red the benefit of the doubt.

Unless we hear from true insiders of the program that Westry was never an option, going back to the end of last season, I'm going to work on the assumption that Westry was considered a player this season. Westry being out for the season had a significant impact we couldn't have anticipated when roster decisions were being made in April last year. You can't judge decision making with only hindsight.

 

[Scooch]

Without knowing what Red and his staff knew, and when they know it, we can't really backtrack their decision making.

They were watching Mintz and Westry in practice every day... Whatever you think of Mintz, he's a very good player, and we had heard Westry was playing him even in practice.

If they decided to roll the dice on Westry being healthy, after months of watching him practice, with Leffew and Carlos as backups, you can't argue against it. Missing on Leffew was a big miss? No doubt. But if they thought they'd get a Westry that could compete effectively against Mintz, you can understand their lack of urgency.

Nobody knew Westry was going to get sick, so he can't even play at all this season.

It's not like Red is going to do a post mortem with us explaining his decision making, when he knew what he knew, etc. We, as fans, are just speculating.

And we're pissed off at the lousy season, so we're not exactly going to give Red the benefit of the doubt.

Unless we hear from true insiders of the program that Westry was never an option, going back to the end of last season, I'm going to work on the assumption that Westry was considered a player this season. Westry being out for the season had a significant impact we couldn't have anticipated when roster decisions were being made in April last year. You can't judge decision making with only hindsight.

The word was that Westry didn't attack his injury rehab all that vigorously and the staff thought anything they'd get from him this season was a bonus.

So maybe that came too late to do anything in the portal (although they did bring in Petar late, so maybe an int'l PG would have been a better move). But it was well known that Westry couldn't be counted on for the 2024-25 team.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Without knowing what Red and his staff knew, and when they know it, we can't really backtrack their decision making.

They were watching Mintz and Westry in practice every day... Whatever you think of Mintz, he's a very good player, and we had heard Westry was playing him even in practice.

If they decided to roll the dice on Westry being healthy, after months of watching him practice, with Leffew and Carlos as backups, you can't argue against it. Missing on Leffew was a big miss? No doubt. But if they thought they'd get a Westry that could compete effectively against Mintz, you can understand their lack of urgency.

Nobody knew Westry was going to get sick, so he can't even play at all this season.

It's not like Red is going to do a post mortem with us explaining his decision making, when he knew what he knew, etc. We, as fans, are just speculating.

And we're pissed off at the lousy season, so we're not exactly going to give Red the benefit of the doubt.

Unless we hear from true insiders of the program that Westry was never an option, going back to the end of last season, I'm going to work on the assumption that Westry was considered a player this season. Westry being out for the season had a significant impact we couldn't have anticipated when roster decisions were being made in April last year. You can't judge decision making with only hindsight.

Those are a lot of the same people that said our roster was going to be great in the offseason. Westry looked like he was learning how to play basketball all over again in the little time he played this year.

 

[Scooch]

Those are a lot of the same people that said our roster was going to be great in the offseason. Westry looked like he was learning how to play basketball all over again in the little time he played this year.

I always greatly appreciate when people share their thoughts about practices here. It's always a fun read.

However, I also learned a lonnnnng time ago to dump a gigantic pile of salt on those thoughts. In 25+ years of Syracuse sports message boarding I think, on balance, more practice reports have been wrong than right, in terms of being predictive of what actually happens on the floor or field in games.

The point is that building an argument or rationale based on practice reports is inherently faulty.

 

[Niastri]

Those are a lot of the same people that said our roster was going to be great in the offseason. Westry looked like he was learning how to play basketball all over again in the little time he played this year.

I remember thinking that part of the reason Copeland and Mintz made the decisions they did was that Westry was looking so good in practice.

There was an element of wishful thinking, absolutely, but we also were getting very positive practice reports at the end of the season.

It wasn't until the roster was virtually set, later in the summer, that we started getting video that showed Westry was nowhere near ready to play.

And that is completely separate from whatever Westry's illness is that is taking him out for the whole season.

I've been absolutely scathing in some of my comments about Red this season. I'm not an apologist, per se...

I'm just trying not to pile on every single decision that hasn't gone well. Some of what Red has done is really reasonably considered. Results haven't worked out, but the decision, at the time, often has been perfectly valid.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I remember thinking that part of the reason Copeland and Mintz made the decisions they did was that Westry was looking so good in practice.

There was an element of wishful thinking, absolutely, but we also were getting very positive practice reports at the end of the season.

It wasn't until the roster was virtually set, later in the summer, that we started getting video that showed Westry was nowhere near ready to play.

And that is completely separate from whatever Westry's illness is that is taking him out for the whole season.

I've been absolutely scathing in some of my comments about Red this season. I'm not an apologist, per se...

I'm just trying not to pile on every single decision that hasn't gone well. Some of what Red has done is really reasonably considered. Results haven't worked out, but the decision, at the time, often has been perfectly valid.

Copeland flunked out of school and was a thorn in Reds side. That’s the main reason he’s not here. End of story. Had zero to do with Westry.

 

[Scooch]

I remember thinking that part of the reason Copeland and Mintz made the decisions they did was that Westry was looking so good in practice.

There was an element of wishful thinking, absolutely, but we also were getting very positive practice reports at the end of the season.

It wasn't until the roster was virtually set, later in the summer, that we started getting video that showed Westry was nowhere near ready to play.

And that is completely separate from whatever Westry's illness is that is taking him out for the whole season.

I've been absolutely scathing in some of my comments about Red this season. I'm not an apologist, per se...

I'm just trying not to pile on every single decision that hasn't gone well. Some of what Red has done is really reasonably considered. Results haven't worked out, but the decision, at the time, often has been perfectly valid.

I agree that pile-ons aren't useful or all that interesting.

In this case though, we're talking about why this program completely and utterly failed at the PG spot. So I think it's fine for folks to push back on the idea that Westry was part of some "reasonably considered" plan.

The staff knew, they literally told people, that any contribution from Westry this season would be a bonus. They knew that before they brought in Petar. So they clearly felt Carlos at the 1 was fine, good enough, or whatever.

 

[Niastri]

Copeland flunked out of school and was a thorn in Reds side. That’s the main reason he’s not here. End of story. Had zero to do with Westry.

Right, but nobody knew that in April, when we all thought Westry was going to be ready by fall.

I get my opinion of Copeland was a reach, even at the time. It was halfway tongue in cheek even in March, when days after the season, Copeland announced he was entering the portal.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Right, but nobody knew that in April, when we all thought Westry was going to be ready by fall.

I get my opinion of Copeland was a reach, even at the time. It was halfway tongue in cheek even in March, when days after the season, Copeland announced he was entering the portal.

If you’re an NFL team and your starting QB misses two years with an ACL or Achilles do you count on him to come back the third year at 100%? The Colts and Niners moved on from Montana and Manning in this exact scenario.

 

[Niastri]

I agree that pile-ons aren't useful or all that interesting.

In this case though, we're talking about why this program completely and utterly failed at the PG spot. So I think it's fine for folks to push back on the idea that Westry was part of some "reasonably considered" plan.

The staff knew, they literally told people, that any contribution from Westry this season would be a bonus. They knew that before they brought in Petar. So they clearly felt Carlos at the 1 was fine, good enough, or whatever.

Carlos as the primary 1 has been a disaster.

One that everybody with a basketball brain could see coming.

I just can't believe they thought it was a good idea, just that they failed at every alternative plan.

And even the coaching staff's attempts at adapting to the recruiting/scouting failures have been dismal at best.

 

[RF2044]

Carlos as the primary 1 has been a disaster.

One that everybody with a basketball brain could see coming.

I just can't believe they thought it was a good idea, just that they failed at every alternative plan.

And even the coaching staff's attempts at adapting to the recruiting/scouting failures have been dismal at best.

So, that's my concern with Alex Kline as the savior concept.

NO DOUBT, he is a rising star. And no doubt, he will identify lower level diamonds and kids who are undervalued from an NIL standpoint, using advanced analytics and his strong analytical acumen.

That's all great and would work phenomenally well if we were using the portal to supplement a solid foundation on the roster -- but given the massive attrition that we are about to have [which could very well include both of the current frosh, per some buzz], are those the types of players that are going to help push this team back into the tournament?

So, I believe in Kline. I think that he could help over time construct the right type of roster with the right personnel to sustain success. Problem is, we don't have a program "identity" right now. We don't have good systems on either side of the ball, either -- so what does "system fit" even mean?

 

[Scooch]

Carlos as the primary 1 has been a disaster.

One that everybody with a basketball brain could see coming.

I just can't believe they thought it was a good idea, just that they failed at every alternative plan.

And even the coaching staff's attempts at adapting to the recruiting/scouting failures have been dismal at best.

Well, we had people saying the staff legitimately thought Carlos was a viable ACC PG. Then, when it became clear that was a disastrous belief, suddenly there was retconning about him being intended to be a backup all along. It was a weird retcon because the receipts are all over the board.

They clearly wanted someone else to be a PG. Then pumped the expectations on Carlos hard. I have no clue why they did that.

 

[pwong]

So, that's my concern with Alex Kline as the savior concept.

NO DOUBT, he is a rising star. And no doubt, he will identify lower level diamonds and kids who are undervalued from an NIL standpoint, using advanced analytics and his strong analytical acumen.

That's all great and would work phenomenally well if we were using the portal to supplement a solid foundation on the roster -- but given the massive attrition that we are about to have [which could very well include both of the current frosh, per some buzz], are those the types of players that are going to help push this team back into the tournament?

So, I believe in Kline. I think that he could help over time construct the right type of roster with the right personnel to sustain success. Problem is, we don't have a program "identity" right now. We don't have good systems on either side of the ball, either -- so what does "system fit" even mean?

Think there will also be portal talent down overall (first offseason with significantly less 5th year guys). So we’ll see how much “of a talent boost” we will get from Kline helping to offset Red’s coaching acumen.

 

[Red2003]

So, that's my concern with Alex Kline as the savior concept.

NO DOUBT, he is a rising star. And no doubt, he will identify lower level diamonds and kids who are undervalued from an NIL standpoint, using advanced analytics and his strong analytical acumen.

That's all great and would work phenomenally well if we were using the portal to supplement a solid foundation on the roster -- but given the massive attrition that we are about to have [which could very well include both of the current frosh, per some buzz], are those the types of players that are going to help push this team back into the tournament?

So, I believe in Kline. I think that he could help over time construct the right type of roster with the right personnel to sustain success. Problem is, we don't have a program "identity" right now. We don't have good systems on either side of the ball, either -- so what does "system fit" even mean?

Hah you don't subscribe to the you will get to play lots of minutes cuz we stink Identity. And if you're really good Duke will pay triple and you can go there to be a 6th man of the year.

 

[djcon57]

Well, we had people saying the staff legitimately thought Carlos was a viable ACC PG. Then, when it became clear that was a disastrous belief, suddenly there was retconning about him being intended to be a backup all along. It was a weird retcon because the receipts are all over the board.

They clearly wanted someone else to be a PG. Then pumped the expectations on Carlos hard. I have no clue why they did that.

Total retcon.

Unless Jake was lying here (which I don’t believe at all)

“The staff did not view Leffew as a 35 minute player - closer to 25….so the split was always going to get Carlos on the floor.”

Class of 2021 - PG Jaquan Carlos (NY) TRANSFERING TO SYRACUSE (4/24/24)

I'll see his grok and raise him with a take that Carlos is a cromulent addition to the team! (I know 721Comstock will appreciate this) D’oh

syracusefan.com

 

[RF2044]

Hah you don't subscribe to the you will get to play lots of minutes cuz we stink Identity. And if you're really good Duke will pay triple and you can go there to be a 6th man of the year.

I think it will be difficult for us to land true difference makers / elite guys, because our program is really, really down right now. And because those type of transfers will have many suitors, and most will want to WIN. They can probably get the same money as we can offer, but also go somewhere where they can get to the NCAA tournament.

Maybe there are some guys we could overpay to land, but then we also have to deal with having somewhat limited NIL funds. And since we're going to need at least four transfers, since we'll have so much attrition this offseason. So... are we going to overpay to land multiple guys? Or can we even do that?

Chances are, we'll get decent depth pieces that fit Kline's model. I just question whether those guys will move the needle the way some are crossing their fingers for.

It would be different if we had a solid nucleus / foundation, and needed a piece or two to make the mixture pop. But if we lose Freeman [as some have suggested], then there isn't that nucleus in place. Hence, why I am not expecting miracles.

Long term, new coach -- I think Kline could work his magic and help get things back on track. But turning over the roster nearly fully this offseason? Not a formula for success next year, in all likelihood.

 

[Scooch]

Total retcon.

Unless Jake was lying here (which I don’t believe at all)

“The staff did not view Leffew as a 35 minute player - closer to 25….so the split was always going to get Carlos on the floor.”

Class of 2021 - PG Jaquan Carlos (NY) TRANSFERING TO SYRACUSE (4/24/24)

I'll see his grok and raise him with a take that Carlos is a cromulent addition to the team! (I know 721Comstock will appreciate this) D’oh

syracusefan.com

I don't spend time on the recruiting boards, so I miss everyone's takes there.

But good gravy, that thread! I've been saying too many folks here lack humility, and reading that thread makes me believe that 1000% more.

 

[Fly Rodder]

“The staff did not view Leffew as a 35 minute player - closer to 25….so the split was always going to get Carlos on the floor.”

Ha. Leffew is averaging 25.9 mpg at UGA.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We’ve been told we have money this offseason not including Melo’s input. This needs to be remembered so it is not an excuse next year.