Syracuse Pitt and BC as northern schools... | Syracusefan.com

Syracuse Pitt and BC as northern schools...

orangefan13

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Anyone else feel we are missing a school or two? If any one of us jumped ship then we would be stranded as the South Florida of the ACC.
UVA isn't exactly far away but still.
 
No worries. We have read this story before. The North crushes the South and burns Atlanta to the ground. We may need to modify and burn Greensboro as well!
 
...no worry...there are going to be two more..
No there won't be.

ACC is done adding unless they can get Notre Dame or a comparable. You will not see Rutgers and UConn invited unless one is paired with Notre Dame.

ACC added SU and Pitt becuase they wanted to renegotiate theie TV contract and their contract said they could renegotiate if they added 2 schools.

There is no reason like that for adding just another one or two schools.

Now if ND can be lured, that's different.
 
No there won't be.

ACC is done adding unless they can get Notre Dame or a comparable. You will not see Rutgers and UConn invited unless one is paired with Notre Dame.

ACC added SU and Pitt becuase they wanted to renegotiate theie TV contract and their contract said they could renegotiate if they added 2 schools.

There is no reason like that for adding just another one or two schools.

Now if ND can be lured, that's different.
I agree with this. Adding two schools allowed for the contract to be reopened, so almost any 2 schools that were added were going to bring new revenue to each school.

Now, adding a school will require justification that the new school will bring in at least an extra $15M. Not sure that rutgers or UConn bring that kind of value.

ND, on the other hand, probably could.
 
No there won't be.

ACC is done adding unless they can get Notre Dame or a comparable. You will not see Rutgers and UConn invited unless one is paired with Notre Dame.

ACC added SU and Pitt becuase they wanted to renegotiate theie TV contract and their contract said they could renegotiate if they added 2 schools.

There is no reason like that for adding just another one or two schools.

Now if ND can be lured, that's different.
Basically agree.

However, if the landscape changes again & the other three "superconferences" go to 16 then the ACC would not wnat to be left behind as a "junior" superconference. In that scenerio if ND still wanted to be independent then I could see adding UConn & Rutgers. But, for now, there appears to be no rush for that scenerio to play out.
 
the next tree that probably will fall is the Big 12 offering Louisville and/or Cincinnati or Big 12 or SEC offering WVU. Basically, the only way ND does anything is if they feel like they have no place to go with their other sports. If BE football implodes, ND could try to keep the rest of their sports in the BE, but i think it more likely to look elsewhere, thus requiring them to give up their football independence. I have no proof, but i truly think they would prefer the ACC over the B10+2.

Otherwise, i agree. The ACC stands pat. No real reason to add UConn or Rutgers unless the ND ship has sailed and the other conferences go to 16. If ND does go to the ACC, i think Rutgers gets the call over UConn.

UConn has nowhere to go.
 
No there won't be.

ACC is done adding unless they can get Notre Dame or a comparable. You will not see Rutgers and UConn invited unless one is paired with Notre Dame.

ACC added SU and Pitt becuase they wanted to renegotiate theie TV contract and their contract said they could renegotiate if they added 2 schools.

There is no reason like that for adding just another one or two schools.

Now if ND can be lured, that's different.
Totally agree, but I would extend your thought to say Notre Dame or Penn State as the one you label "comparable".

The ACC football schools would revolt if ACC 15-16 were UCONN and Rutgers. Might be okay to use as a repalcement is someone leaves but not for 15-16 until all of Notre Dame, Penn St, Missouri, Oklahoma are off the board long term.

I posted this in a thread that got sidetracked on BBQ. So will cut and paste it here:

I thank AlbanyCuse for the invite to join this Board, and thought I would make my first post an all inclusive intro on this thread.

First, I thought ACC adding Pitt and Cuse was a brilliant move and totally caught the B1G by surprise. Very happy to have you two as 13-14 but I do not favor UCONN or Rutgers any time soon for 15-16 for lots of reasons (numbers below not necessarily in priority order just as references):

1. Do not want ACC to be the sole reason BE falls apart, though in Bball that helps ACC cause (also B1G's) with Notre Dame not remaining independent forever.

2. Holding out hope that long term and when you see the teams you will agree it is not possible in short term that ACC can add one or both of Penn State and Notre Dame for 15-16.

3. B1G would have loved to have added Pitt from BE (back in hte day) and Maryland from ACC to appease Penn State whose nearest B1G school Ohio State is much further away (5.75 hours) than in this order: Pitt (2.67 hours), MD (3.85) , (Rutgers 4.1), Syracuse (4.48) and UVA (5.08 hours).

B1G adding Pitt and MD would have better positioned them to retain PSU and eventually add Notre Dame and Cuse (or Rutgers).

4. No longer any rush for ACC to get to 16 since SEC only has 13, P12 and B1G now content at 12, B12 only has 9 and BE only has 7.

5. ACC football "powers" as much as anybody can be viewed as a football power in ACC or BE want football schools better than UCONN or Rutgers for 15-16.

6. No one can name 4 teams that ACC could realistically added in short term when super conferences were looking more imminent, that do not include one if not both Syracuse and Pitt.

Great interim solution for 13-14 but no rush to get to 15-16 if doing so forever eliminates Penn St and Notre Dame.

7. Though with FSU, Miami and UNC scandals, ACC cannot throw stones, UCONN as good as it is in both genders for Bball, has some ethics baggage, while Cuse and Pitt run clean programs.

8. NYC has a lot of distractions. Cuse is as good an entry, (or not), into that NY market as Rutgers is (or is not), and much better in both sports, not to mention lacrosse.

9. IMO, the only negative is weather for baseball and softball but football and revenue drive this, not other sports, not even Bball.

10. Syracuse and Pitt are perennially top 10 in Bball which gives ACC 4 top programs every year.

I could go on but you get the drift. The CT governor now seems to agree that UCONN should not man the phones waiting for an ACC call anytime soon, unless one of the 14 leaves.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...or-acc-uconn-huskies-decision-not-likely-soon

Back to expansion, Nova has a long way to go to upgrade its football program and infrastructure.

ACC places a high emphasis on academics, second only to B1G who also requires membership in Assoc of American Universities (AAU) that is nice to have but not required in ACC.

So academics in addition sometimes to geography eliminates: Memphis, Houston, ECU, USF, UCF, West VA, Louisville, TxTech, Cincy, K-State, Temple, and UK. (#132 Okie St solo but ACC would waive #132 if packaged with 101 Oklahoma).

That greatly reduces the list of potentials who I list below by academic rank in US News & World reports , with TV share in parenthesis, even including teams not anywhere near the East Coast:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?scp=1&sq=most popular college football teams in new york&st=cse

12 - Northwestern (515K and AAU as is all of B1G) would not leave B1G, distance and a lot of other non-starters
17 - Vandy (380K and AAU) - would not leave SEC $$ on table, won't bother to list Florida from SEC further down
17 - Rice (127K - AAU), like NW, too far away for what it brings
19 - Notre Dame (2.262 million TV Share) highly desirable to both B1G and ACC, not AAU but rules made to be broken, wants independence

30 - Richmond - Div 1-AA in football, already two ACC teams in VA
45- Penn State (AAU and 2.642 M) content in B1G for moment but having Pitt helps ACC cause, views itself as eastern vs. east fringe of central
45 - Texas (2.25 M and AAU) issues with distance and Texas Longhorn Network, and now potential 6 year B12 rights grants

55 - Maryland (474K - AAU) adding Pitt and Cuse helps retain MD in ACC

58 - Pitt (831K and AAU) helps case with Penn St long term, good in both sports and geographically - no one can name 4 realistic ACC candidates better

58 - UCONN (619K, not AAU, ethics issues) - only need 2 short term and Pitt/Cuse better fits overall, BC still bitter from last time

62 - Syracuse (769K, former AAU) -no one can name 4 realistic ACC candidates better, new market in upstate NY and NYC, lacrosse

68 - Rutgers (938K, AAU) - Syracuse taps into NYC market to extent that is possible as much as Rutgers can, Rutgers bad in both sports
75 - Baylor (210K small market, not AAU) - distance but good in both sports and has renowned medical center
75 - Tulsa (120K ) dwarfed by Oklahoma and Okie St and too far

82 - Vermont adds nothing that Syracuse did not already add, way worse in both sports, not even sure they have a football team
90 - Missouri (1.085 M and AAU) - good in both sports but competition from B1G and SEC who are bigger and closer, great rivalry with KU
97 - Iowa St (535K and AAU) - leave this one for B1G or B12 since not great in either sport to be kind in terms of its Bball
97 - TCU (371K small market) - already headed to BE, distance, competition also from B12

101 - low water mark for ACC with FSU and NC St tied with several
101 - Kansas (768K and AAU) - may be tied to K-St who does not make cut, killed by GA Tech 66-24, great Bball only add if not so far
101 - Oklahoma (1.202 M) package deal with 132-Okie St (720K)- ACC would take that if it could
101 - Tennessee would not leave SEC, did not bother to list Nebraska also 101

111 - South Carolina also would not leave SEC
 
Totally agree, but I would extend your thought to say Notre Dame or Penn State as the one you label "comparable".

The ACC football schools would revolt if ACC 15-16 were UCONN and Rutgers. Might be okay to use as a repalcement is someone leaves but not for 15-16 until all of Notre Dame, Penn St, Missouri, Oklahoma are off the board long term.

I posted this in a thread that got sidetracked on BBQ. So will cut and paste it here:

I thank AlbanyCuse for the invite to join this Board, and thought I would make my first post an all inclusive intro on this thread.

First, I thought ACC adding Pitt and Cuse was a brilliant move and totally caught the B1G by surprise. Very happy to have you two as 13-14 but I do not favor UCONN or Rutgers any time soon for 15-16 for lots of reasons (numbers below not necessarily in priority order just as references):

1. Do not want ACC to be the sole reason BE falls apart, though in Bball that helps ACC cause (also B1G's) with Notre Dame not remaining independent forever.

2. Holding out hope that long term and when you see the teams you will agree it is not possible in short term that ACC can add one or both of Penn State and Notre Dame for 15-16.

3. B1G would have loved to have added Pitt from BE (back in hte day) and Maryland from ACC to appease Penn State whose nearest B1G school Ohio State is much further away (5.75 hours) than in this order: Pitt (2.67 hours), MD (3.85) , (Rutgers 4.1), Syracuse (4.48) and UVA (5.08 hours).

B1G adding Pitt and MD would have better positioned them to retain PSU and eventually add Notre Dame and Cuse (or Rutgers).

4. No longer any rush for ACC to get to 16 since SEC only has 13, P12 and B1G now content at 12, B12 only has 9 and BE only has 7.

5. ACC football "powers" as much as anybody can be viewed as a football power in ACC or BE want football schools better than UCONN or Rutgers for 15-16.

6. No one can name 4 teams that ACC could realistically added in short term when super conferences were looking more imminent, that do not include one if not both Syracuse and Pitt.

Great interim solution for 13-14 but no rush to get to 15-16 if doing so forever eliminates Penn St and Notre Dame.

7. Though with FSU, Miami and UNC scandals, ACC cannot throw stones, UCONN as good as it is in both genders for Bball, has some ethics baggage, while Cuse and Pitt run clean programs.

8. NYC has a lot of distractions. Cuse is as good an entry, (or not), into that NY market as Rutgers is (or is not), and much better in both sports, not to mention lacrosse.

9. IMO, the only negative is weather for baseball and softball but football and revenue drive this, not other sports, not even Bball.

10. Syracuse and Pitt are perennially top 10 in Bball which gives ACC 4 top programs every year.

I could go on but you get the drift. The CT governor now seems to agree that UCONN should not man the phones waiting for an ACC call anytime soon, unless one of the 14 leaves.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...or-acc-uconn-huskies-decision-not-likely-soon

Back to expansion, Nova has a long way to go to upgrade its football program and infrastructure.

ACC places a high emphasis on academics, second only to B1G who also requires membership in Assoc of American Universities (AAU) that is nice to have but not required in ACC.

So academics in addition sometimes to geography eliminates: Memphis, Houston, ECU, USF, UCF, West VA, Louisville, TxTech, Cincy, K-State, Temple, and UK. (#132 Okie St solo but ACC would waive #132 if packaged with 101 Oklahoma).

That greatly reduces the list of potentials who I list below by academic rank in US News & World reports , with TV share in parenthesis, even including teams not anywhere near the East Coast:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/the-geography-of-college-football-fans-and-realignment-chaos/?scp=1&sq=most popular college football teams in new york&st=cse

12 - Northwestern (515K and AAU as is all of B1G) would not leave B1G, distance and a lot of other non-starters
17 - Vandy (380K and AAU) - would not leave SEC $$ on table, won't bother to list Florida from SEC further down
17 - Rice (127K - AAU), like NW, too far away for what it brings
19 - Notre Dame (2.262 million TV Share) highly desirable to both B1G and ACC, not AAU but rules made to be broken, wants independence

30 - Richmond - Div 1-AA in football, already two ACC teams in VA
45- Penn State (AAU and 2.642 M) content in B1G for moment but having Pitt helps ACC cause, views itself as eastern vs. east fringe of central
45 - Texas (2.25 M and AAU) issues with distance and Texas Longhorn Network, and now potential 6 year B12 rights grants

55 - Maryland (474K - AAU) adding Pitt and Cuse helps retain MD in ACC

58 - Pitt (831K and AAU) helps case with Penn St long term, good in both sports and geographically - no one can name 4 realistic ACC candidates better

58 - UCONN (619K, not AAU, ethics issues) - only need 2 short term and Pitt/Cuse better fits overall, BC still bitter from last time

62 - Syracuse (769K, former AAU) -no one can name 4 realistic ACC candidates better, new market in upstate NY and NYC, lacrosse

68 - Rutgers (938K, AAU) - Syracuse taps into NYC market to extent that is possible as much as Rutgers can, Rutgers bad in both sports
75 - Baylor (210K small market, not AAU) - distance but good in both sports and has renowned medical center
75 - Tulsa (120K ) dwarfed by Oklahoma and Okie St and too far

82 - Vermont adds nothing that Syracuse did not already add, way worse in both sports, not even sure they have a football team
90 - Missouri (1.085 M and AAU) - good in both sports but competition from B1G and SEC who are bigger and closer, great rivalry with KU
97 - Iowa St (535K and AAU) - leave this one for B1G or B12 since not great in either sport to be kind in terms of its Bball
97 - TCU (371K small market) - already headed to BE, distance, competition also from B12

101 - low water mark for ACC with FSU and NC St tied with several
101 - Kansas (768K and AAU) - may be tied to K-St who does not make cut, killed by GA Tech 66-24, great Bball only add if not so far
101 - Oklahoma (1.202 M) package deal with 132-Okie St (720K)- ACC would take that if it could
101 - Tennessee would not leave SEC, did not bother to list Nebraska also 101

111 - South Carolina also would not leave SEC

Some nice analysis.
But...one point.
I think it's a mistake to believe that adding Syracuse like this provides some instant access to the NYC TV market.
Unlike Rutgers & UConn, interest in the Orange in NYC comes almost solely from alumni (a good number of whom work in local and national media).
There are a lot of alumni...enough to make a Madison Square Garden BE game something close to a Syracuse home game.
Without ties to the Big East, local NYC media interest in Syracuse all but disappears.

And I have yet to talk to a single local alumnus who likes the idea of abandoning the Big East.
From a basketball-only perspective, we lose the opportunity to see the Orange in action multiple times each season.
It's possible that, despite SU administration claims to the contrary, there will be no games at all in the NYC metro area in some seasons.
In that sense, the move is all but an abandonment of NYC and alumni in the area.
 
Some nice analysis.
But...one point.
I think it's a mistake to believe that adding Syracuse like this provides some instant access to the NYC TV market.
Unlike Rutgers & UConn, interest in the Orange in NYC comes almost solely from alumni (a good number of whom work in local and national media).
There are a lot of alumni...enough to make a Madison Square Garden BE game something close to a Syracuse home game.
Without ties to the Big East, local NYC media interest in Syracuse all but disappears...
.

Thanks, you confirmed what I suspected which is why I worded it Cuse is as good an entry, (or not), into that NY market as Rutgers is (or is not),

In fully agree with your main point but might instead of wording the lead in as you did "Unlike Rutgers and UCONN...", I tend to think of it as "Like Rutgers and UCONN...".

I don't know as much about Rutgers, but I did live in CT for 15 years and only thought of it as halfway point between Boston and NYC, not as anything associated with the city. Storrs in particular is in the middle of nowhere, and even Hartford where I worked is not thought of as a sister city.

Even though there is a big difference between upstate NY and NYC, having a presensce in "New York" state at least subliminally gets out of state people to think of "New York" city when realistically it is mostly (up) state NY.

Rutgers is about 3.5 hours and about 200 miles closer to NYC than Syracuse is, but New Brunswick NJ is also only about 10 miles north of the midpoint between Philadelphia and NYC, not directly in one of the Boroughs.

I can't say how NY/NJ people think of Rutgers and its appeal to NYC market but as someone who as lived in Missouri, PA, MA, CT and FL, I have never associatd the two closely.

So just an opinion, mine is that anybody who thinks Rutgers captures that NYC market is a few states South of reality too.

So as an ACC fan, I gladly accept Syracuse and Pitt over Rutgers and UCONN or any other schools ACC could realistically have gotten this year for a lot of other reasons, with that one perhaps being a tie, or only a narrow edge to Rutgers/UCONN, not enough to sway it overall.

I also think it would have been a mistake in the short term and even in the intermediate term for ACC to accept all 4, before first pursueing more aggreassivley 2 other than Rutgers/UCONN in intermediate to long term
 
um, who cares? its 2011 - not as if we need to hitch up a wagon train to get from here to there.
 
...

And I have yet to talk to a single local alumnus who likes the idea of abandoning the Big East.
From a basketball-only perspective, we lose the opportunity to see the Orange in action multiple times each season.
It's possible that, despite SU administration claims to the contrary, there will be no games at all in the NYC metro area in some seasons.
In that sense, the move is all but an abandonment of NYC and alumni in the area.
That all makes sense.

There are conflicting links on the Thursday lnks thread about whether Cuse would play UNC or Duke at home or in NYC once league play starts. In the interim 27 months, Duke for example would prefer MSG while UNC would be more willing to do a true home and home.

Hopefully the BE Bball only schools will not have any axe to grind and would still schedule OOC games with Cuse vs. St. John's, Seton Hall and Providence for away games and of course if they or Nova or G-town or Notre Dame or Marquette or Depaul come to Carrier Dome it does not matter.

Only time will tell how willing the BE football schools, not ocunting USF and TCU due to distance, so only Rutgers, UCONN, West VA, Louisville, and Cincy. would be willing to host Syracuse football or Bball OOC to continue any rivalries, particularly Boeheim and Calhoun before they each retire. TV of course would love it.
 

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