T-up DIXON

[OttoinGrotto]

Here's a thought: the refs are handling this the way the leagues' governing bodies and schools AD's want them to

If that is true, and coaches are not penalized for being outside of the coaching box, the refs are doing so in contradiction of their own rule book:

Art. 2. A technical foul shall be assessed to a coach and all bench personnel for
the following infractions:

f. All bench personnel shall remain seated on the bench while the ball is live,
except as follows:
1. The head coach may stand but must remain completely and clearly
in his coaching box. One warning shall be issued to the head coach
before any subsequent infraction is penalized.

http://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Groups/104883/Library/files/BR15.pdf

 

[Bornorange]

I really think that Jimmy should send someone out there to guard him.
It would be hysterical and surely make the ESPN highlights.

..but he will never do anything to show up an another coach.

 

[MikeSU02]

Here's a thought: the refs are handling this the way the leagues' governing bodies and schools AD's want them to

Doesn't seem like they are handling it like Coach K wants them to.

 

[Cowtown]

As an official, what do you do in that situation? T him up? Warn him? Ignore it?

Any idea why we don't see enforcement of this? My guess is that the conferences want enforcement to be loose because neither team will have an advantage if both coaches roam the floor. Of course, Boeheim is gentlemanly about this and virtually never comes onto the court.

EDIT: Missed the next post.

Well, if he's interfering with the play, or intimidating the ref, you have to deal with it. But there are levels and degrees within the levels, if I may. If the situation warrants a T, you give it and you can't be afraid to. But real refs don't hide behind the rule book, and good ones don't fire the heavy weaponry on the first volley. That being said, it's my guess the NCAA has taken the position that unless it's a real problem, and all he's doing is walking out on to the floor similar to what's shown in the posted photos, they're going to just let it ride. But if he's chewing on the ref, that's different, which brings us to the second question.

When it happens in games I work, during the next available dead ball, you "walk him back" to the box while saying something like, "I'd like to discuss that with you, coach, so the first thing we gotta do here is get back to the part of the floor where it's okay." They know where that is, and they also know you're doing that instead of just T-ing them up. And you prefer to do it when your partner is obviously waiting to inbound the ball, forcing it to be a short conversation. You don't just order him back in the box and leave him there, showing him up in front of his players or home crowd. That's usually the first sign on the road to hell. It's one of my own personal positions that if you want respect, be the first to show it. Unless the guy is a committed jackass like Bobby Knight or Benny Dees, let him make his point and say, "Okay, I'll have a look," and get on with the game, which is what everybody came out to see. I might also add that T-ing a coach is a serious thing to do, and it brings unnecessary attention on the refs, which is not a good situation and refs don't want either.

And you never paint yourself into a corner by threatening a T "if it happens again." You say something like, "C'mon coach, you really gotta settle down here. Neither one of us wants where this is headed," and then you can handle him with the stop sign or the "AYFKM stare."

Hair trigger refs don't "move up." If an AD phones the commissioner and says "I don't want this guy in my gym," you won't work there. So, unless you like working East Gopher Ankle Tech vs. Broken Snowshoe State in late January in North Dakota, find a better way to deal with things than just shoving the rule book down a coach's throat.

I doubt this is what anyone in this thread wanted to hear, but that's the reality of it.

 

[OttoMets]

Well, if he's interfering with the play, or intimidating the ref, you have to deal with it. But there are levels and degrees within the levels, if I may. If the situation warrants a T, you give it and you can't be afraid to. But real refs don't hide behind the rule book, and good ones don't fire the heavy weaponry on the first volley. That being said, it's my guess the NCAA has taken the position that unless it's a real problem, and all he's doing is walking out on to the floor similar to what's shown in the posted photos, they're going to just let it ride. But if he's chewing on the ref, that's different, which brings us to the second question.

When it happens in games I work, during the next available dead ball, you "walk him back" to the box while saying something like, "I'd like to discuss that with you, coach, so the first thing we gotta do here is get back to the part of the floor where it's okay." They know where that is, and they also know you're doing that instead of just T-ing them up. And you prefer to do it when your partner is obviously waiting to inbound the ball, forcing it to be a short conversation. You don't just order him back in the box and leave him there, showing him up in front of his players or home crowd. That's usually the first sign on the road to hell. It's one of my own personal positions that if you want respect, be the first to show it. Unless the guy is a committed jackass like Bobby Knight or Benny Dees, let him make his point and say, "Okay, I'll have a look," and get on with the game, which is what everybody came out to see. I might also add that T-ing a coach is a serious thing to do, and it brings unnecessary attention on the refs, which is not a good situation and refs don't want either.

And you never paint yourself into a corner by threatening a T "if it happens again." You say something like, "C'mon coach, you really gotta settle down here. Neither one of us wants where this is headed," and then you can handle him with the stop sign or the "AYFKM stare."

Hair trigger refs don't "move up." If an AD phones the commissioner and says "I don't want this guy in my gym," you won't work there. So, unless you like working East Gopher Ankle Tech vs. Broken Snowshoe State in late January in North Dakota, find a better way to deal with things than just shoving the rule book down a coach's throat.

I doubt this is what anyone in this thread wanted to hear, but that's the reality of it.

Excellent, detailed answer. I'm sure I'm not the only one who learned something from it.

Next: how does Michael Stephens keep getting work?

 

[Cowtown]

Excellent, detailed answer. I'm sure I'm not the only one who learned something from it.

Thanks man, I learn some things here also.

Next: how does Michael Stephens keep getting work?

Aw, you're killing me now.

 

[jordoo]

Well, if he's interfering with the play, or intimidating the ref, you have to deal with it. But there are levels and degrees within the levels, if I may. If the situation warrants a T, you give it and you can't be afraid to. But real refs don't hide behind the rule book, and good ones don't fire the heavy weaponry on the first volley. That being said, it's my guess the NCAA has taken the position that unless it's a real problem, and all he's doing is walking out on to the floor similar to what's shown in the posted photos, they're going to just let it ride. But if he's chewing on the ref, that's different, which brings us to the second question.

When it happens in games I work, during the next available dead ball, you "walk him back" to the box while saying something like, "I'd like to discuss that with you, coach, so the first thing we gotta do here is get back to the part of the floor where it's okay." They know where that is, and they also know you're doing that instead of just T-ing them up. And you prefer to do it when your partner is obviously waiting to inbound the ball, forcing it to be a short conversation. You don't just order him back in the box and leave him there, showing him up in front of his players or home crowd. That's usually the first sign on the road to hell. It's one of my own personal positions that if you want respect, be the first to show it. Unless the guy is a committed jackass like Bobby Knight or Benny Dees, let him make his point and say, "Okay, I'll have a look," and get on with the game, which is what everybody came out to see. I might also add that T-ing a coach is a serious thing to do, and it brings unnecessary attention on the refs, which is not a good situation and refs don't want either.

And you never paint yourself into a corner by threatening a T "if it happens again." You say something like, "C'mon coach, you really gotta settle down here. Neither one of us wants where this is headed," and then you can handle him with the stop sign or the "AYFKM stare."

Hair trigger refs don't "move up." If an AD phones the commissioner and says "I don't want this guy in my gym," you won't work there. So, unless you like working East Gopher Ankle Tech vs. Broken Snowshoe State in late January in North Dakota, find a better way to deal with things than just shoving the rule book down a coach's throat.

I doubt this is what anyone in this thread wanted to hear, but that's the reality of it.

Not to say this isn't a responsible and decent way to handle it but to me Its going way to far into judgment call, catering to one coach more than another and the ref's having to concentrate too much on something other than the game. This becomes a slippery slope very quickly. We want to make as many calls as we can cut and dry for the refs so its easier for them to call games. Will they still miss calls? Sure but it would be less and less the more hard and fast rules you have and the less subjective or judgment calls you you have especially if you did tape review with the refs.

My thing with the coaches is that if you enforced the coaches box rule EVERY TIME and only allowed them to be on the court during dead ball situations and TO's then the game would benefit in a variety of ways

1: Flow and pace would be much better for viewers.

2: You would have less working of the refs and thus much less perceived favoritism of certain coaches. Most of the coaches with the reputations of getting the calls work the refs constantly, are on the court constantly and are being pacified by the refs as you describe above. This gives the impression of favoritism as the refs show so much attention to this coach.

3: The Refs would have one less thing to worry about because they would simply blow the whistle. 1st time warning, second time tech as it is every time after words. Coaches would automatically conform because of the penalty and the refs could use more of their energies doing there best to call the game properly. I think it would improve the way games are called.

4: Players would stop complaining so much during games because coaches would also be forced to stop. Follow the leader. Both coaches and players would become more focused on their coaching and their play to effect the score than complaining about the refs. Thus a better played and coached game.

5: Finally your favorite fans on message boards may actually have less to complain about with the refs after everything improves.

In short the whole issue fosters an environment of blaming and trying to effect the way the game is called in your favor. This takes a lot of energy but unfortunately is successful enough that it has permeated the game and is more the rule than the exception it once way. Start with the coaches and it will filter down. Plus its such an easy thing to implement and would take pressure off the refs while clearly defining when they can complain to the refs (which would be times when they would prefer to be coaching their teams in the huddle) perhaps they would even simply have one of the assistants talk to the refs for them during dead ball time outs. Also no pressure on one coach to keep up with the other coaches working of the refs.

 

[orangefan13]

I loved it when that one ref made it a point to go all the way over to dixon's bench and chew him out with a angry look on his face. Priceless.

 

[jordoo]

I loved it when that one ref made it a point to go all the way over to dixon's bench and chew him out with a angry look on his face. Priceless.

Agreed but why should he have to do this at all?