Talent , talent , Talent

[Don]

I have seen a few people post on here that coach Red did a great job last year winning 20 games but seems to have regressed this year and he is using weird lineup combinations.. Ill get to this in a few minutes .
First This false pretense that the free throw shooting is going to kill them. I defy anybody to go back to the first two final four teams we had and other than Jimmy Lee find one really good free throw shooter. For instance bug Williams shot like 50 percent for a whole year while playing the point guard. The 87 team was brick layers convention, I mean Derrick Brower could start a fast break for the other team by hitting the backboard or the front of the rim on a free throw he shoot like 40 percent for the year and having it bounce out to half court(ok that's kind of an exaggeration), Herman harried was maybe a little better and Stevie Thompson one of the top 20 players in school history was like 50 percent and had the some of the worst form possible and he was a Mcdonalds All American

Which brings me back to my first point Red is not a worse coach this year the guys he has at point guard are no where near as good a point guard as Judah was. Losing a player like Brown who is better than a anyone who so far has replaced him is an issue.

The teams in the past could get past things like bad free throw shooting or being poor rebounding or not being able to hit three's all the time because point blank the talent was way better. There not going to miss the tourney by being a bad free throw shooting team or being inconsistent on 3's They are going to miss because they don't have enough talent to overcome those things .

The 87 team could put Brower out there and watch him clank free throws because they had two of the best big men in school history to make up for that.

You have to have talent to make a run to the tourney and be hot at the right time. will that happen this year , you never know but the 2 freshman need to play like there stars as does JJ. Im not thinking its going to happen but stranger things have happened.

 

[Trueblue25]

Brown was and is ridiculously overrated by this board. I’ll take Lampkin all day. Browns not getting time over Freeman either.

The issue’s at guard and the rotations imo

 

[CuseCPT]

Yeah, unfortunately, this team just doesn't have the horses. People wanted to believe the early games were a fluke but I don't think that will prove to be the case.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

I think we best texas if Donnie played the majority of the 2nd half. He would have gotten many of the boards we missed.

 

[Dick_in_MI]

I have seen a few people post on here that coach Red did a great job last year winning 20 games but seems to have regressed this year and he is using weird lineup combinations.. Ill get to this in a few minutes .
First This false pretense that the free throw shooting is going to kill them. I defy anybody to go back to the first two final four teams we had and other than Jimmy Lee find one really good free throw shooter. For instance bug Williams shot like 50 percent for a whole year while playing the point guard. The 87 team was brick layers convention, I mean Derrick Brower could start a fast break for the other team by hitting the backboard or the front of the rim on a free throw he shoot like 40 percent for the year and having it bounce out to half court(ok that's kind of an exaggeration), Herman harried was maybe a little better and Stevie Thompson one of the top 20 players in school history was like 50 percent and had the some of the worst form possible and he was a Mcdonalds All American

Which brings me back to my first point Red is not a worse coach this year the guys he has at point guard are no where near as good a point guard as Judah was. Losing a player like Brown who is better than a anyone who so far has replaced him is an issue.

The teams in the past could get past things like bad free throw shooting or being poor rebounding or not being able to hit three's all the time because point blank the talent was way better. There not going to miss the tourney by being a bad free throw shooting team or being inconsistent on 3's They are going to miss because they don't have enough talent to overcome those things .

The 87 team could put Brower out there and watch him clank free throws because they had two of the best big men in school history to make up for that.

You have to have talent to make a run to the tourney and be hot at the right time. will that happen this year , you never know but the 2 freshman need to play like there stars as does JJ. Im not thinking its going to happen but stranger things have happened.

Not really sure why you cite Brower so heavily. He was the 8th man on that team and everyone ahead of him shot significantly better from the stripe...20-40% better.

 

[dasher]

Not really sure why you cite Brower so heavily. He was the 8th man on that team and everyone ahead of him shot significantly better from the stripe...20-40% better.

yeah, ridiculous. When you think about the '87 team, does anyone ever mention Derrick Brower? The starting 5 were not that bad. Douglas 74% Monroe 73% Triche 72% Coleman 68% and Rony 60% and not for nothing, free throw shooting cost us the national title

 

[two3zone]

I have seen a few people post on here that coach Red did a great job last year winning 20 games but seems to have regressed this year and he is using weird lineup combinations.. Ill get to this in a few minutes .
First This false pretense that the free throw shooting is going to kill them. I defy anybody to go back to the first two final four teams we had and other than Jimmy Lee find one really good free throw shooter. For instance bug Williams shot like 50 percent for a whole year while playing the point guard. The 87 team was brick layers convention, I mean Derrick Brower could start a fast break for the other team by hitting the backboard or the front of the rim on a free throw he shoot like 40 percent for the year and having it bounce out to half court(ok that's kind of an exaggeration), Herman harried was maybe a little better and Stevie Thompson one of the top 20 players in school history was like 50 percent and had the some of the worst form possible and he was a Mcdonalds All American

Which brings me back to my first point Red is not a worse coach this year the guys he has at point guard are no where near as good a point guard as Judah was. Losing a player like Brown who is better than a anyone who so far has replaced him is an issue.

The teams in the past could get past things like bad free throw shooting or being poor rebounding or not being able to hit three's all the time because point blank the talent was way better. There not going to miss the tourney by being a bad free throw shooting team or being inconsistent on 3's They are going to miss because they don't have enough talent to overcome those things .

The 87 team could put Brower out there and watch him clank free throws because they had two of the best big men in school history to make up for that.

You have to have talent to make a run to the tourney and be hot at the right time. will that happen this year , you never know but the 2 freshman need to play like there stars as does JJ. Im not thinking its going to happen but stranger things have happened.

 

[Hopkins16]

Even without a competent point guard, this team has enough talent to perform well and make the tournament. It will all come down to coaching - game to game rotations, substitutions, switching from man to man to zone when appropriate, matchups etc.

We have a variety of different players that can produce wins if coaching is flexible and open minded. A team can be successful without a true point guard always running the team.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

Interesting choice citing the '87 team as evidence that FT shooting isn't critical when they lost the biggest game of all due to FT shooting.

 

[atlanticuse]

Brown was and is ridiculously overrated by this board. I’ll take Lampkin all day. Browns not getting time over Freeman either.

The issue’s at guard and the rotations imo

Respectfully disagree. Having seen him play in person numerous times, I think Maliq is better than people on our team. Intangibles cannot be rated, so let's look at... Evan Miya:

Team Rank | Name | OBPR + DBPR = BPR

Syracuse 2023-24
1 Maliq Brown 2.94 + 1.23 = 4.17
2 Judah Mintz 2.44 + 1.32 = 3.76

Duke 2024-25
1 Cooper Flagg 3.67 + 4.13 = 7.80
...
5 Maliq Brown 2.23 + 3.06 = 5.29

our 2024-25 team is such isht that I'm not even going to post the top players.

 

[Trueblue25]

Respectfully disagree. Having seen him play in person numerous times, I think Maliq is better than people on our team. Intangibles cannot be rated, so let's look at... Evan Miya:

Team Rank | Name | OBPR + DBPR = BPR

Syracuse 2023-24
1 Maliq Brown 2.94 + 1.23 = 4.17
2 Judah Mintz 2.44 + 1.32 = 3.76

Duke 2024-25
1 Cooper Flagg 3.67 + 4.13 = 7.80
...
5 Maliq Brown 2.23 + 3.06 = 5.29

our 2024-25 team is such isht that I'm not even going to post the top players.

Maliq’s a support player. He’s a good defender and usually a plus rebounder.

Lampkin is a leader, and better post player. Freeman is a top 10 freshman who there shouldn’t even be a discussion comparing the 2.

 

[atlanticuse]

Maliq’s a support player. He’s a good defender and usually a plus rebounder.

Lampkin is a leader, and better post player. Freeman is a top 10 freshman who there shouldn’t even be a discussion comparing the 2.

I do agree with this. Thank you.

But right now...

1 Eddie Lampkin 2.34 + 1.12 = 3.46 (this would rank 9th on Duke)
7 Donnie Freeman 0.82 + 0.50 = 1.32

Naheem is ranked above Donnie.
So is this coaching - because Donnie isn't on the floor enough (maybe - board is split over this divisive topic)?
Or is it inability to produce while he's on the floor?

 

[Trueblue25]

I do agree with this. Thank you.

But right now...

1 Eddie Lampkin 2.34 + 1.12 = 3.46 (this would rank 9th on Duke)
7 Donnie Freeman 0.82 + 0.50 = 1.32

Naheem is ranked above Donnie.
So is this coaching - because Donnie isn't on the floor enough (maybe - board is split over this divisive topic)?
Or is it inability to produce while he's on the floor?

This is where statistics lose me. Eddie’s, if not the most important, one of the only reasons we’re not 0 - 5 right now. We ask him to do a lot, which results in less efficient metrics.

Naheems played like 3 minutes so I don’t think we can say he’s developed a metric baseline yet.

Donnie’s learning. But I’m baffled by Red’s rotations as well. No reason Bell should be left in the Texas game with Donnie on the bench. Don’t care how much of a liability Donnie can be on defense at times.

 

[two3zone]

This is where statistics lose me. Eddie’s, if not the most important, one of the only reasons we’re not 0 - 5 right now. We ask him to do a lot, which results in less efficient metrics.

Naheems played like 3 minutes so I don’t think we can say he’s developed a metric baseline yet.

Donnie’s learning. But I’m baffled by Red’s rotations as well. No reason Bell should be left in the Texas game with Donnie on the bench. Don’t care how much of a liability Donnie can be on defense at times.

Eddie was one of the biggest reasons we're as bad as we are as much as nobody wants to admit it.

 

[Trueblue25]

Eddie was one of the biggest reasons we're as bad as we are as much as nobody wants to admit it.

In what world? We almost have to play offense through him because our guard play is so pitiful. If we had Maliq in his place id argue we’re likely a 1 or 2 win team right now. We were only close to Texas because of Lampkin

 

[rrlbees]

This is where statistics lose me. Eddie’s, if not the most important, one of the only reasons we’re not 0 - 5 right now. We ask him to do a lot, which results in less efficient metrics.

Naheems played like 3 minutes so I don’t think we can say he’s developed a metric baseline yet.

Donnie’s learning. But I’m baffled by Red’s rotations as well. No reason Bell should be left in the Texas game with Donnie on the bench. Don’t care how much of a liability Donnie can be on defense at times.

The Texas game Donnie had by far the worst +/- at -10. Don’t know if Red uses that at all.

 

[newmexicuse]

Isnt the ability to make FTs and Treys an aspect of talent ?

Talent is defined as "natural aptitude or skill"

I see our plus talented guys as Lampkin, Freeman (rebounding), Bell (shooting), Moore (scoring), JJ (scoring).

Some of the teams and players that you cite could make up for poor shooting with OVERWHELMING athleticism.

Athleticism defined as "the physical qualities that are characteristic of athletes, such as strength, fitness, and agility"

This team has plus athletes in Freeman, Moore, and JJ. One can also argue Bell, but his never translates except for the occasional rundown block. Maj seems pretty athletic for a big.

Carlos, Lampkin, MacLeod, Davis, Taylor, and Cuffe are all average or below in terms of athleticism.

I dont see any of our guys as well rounded in both talent and athleticism. Freeman and Moore might get there, but they are not there yet. JJ is closest. The guys with talent have mostly one dimensional talent and the guys with athleticism have their individual limitations.

PG is probably the most important position and that is our biggest weakness. I just cant see Carlos as the answer. His role should be at most 10 MPG as backup. JJ is not a natural PG, but I would roll with him and start Moore instead of Carlos. At least that gives us some upside. IMHO, people are underrating Judah's plusses because he always had some out of control plays. Now, with Carlos we have the exact opposite - total control and no ability to breakdown a D.

 

[shu 49]

Brown was and is ridiculously overrated by this board. I’ll take Lampkin all day. Browns not getting time over Freeman either.

The issue’s at guard and the rotations imo

Brown would be outplaying Freeman bye a mile. Freeman will not be one and done unless he does a total turnaround. Freeman does get defensive boards, i will givehim that but his shot selection and lack of collegiate strength to play strong shows.

 

[two3zone]

In what world? We almost have to play offense through him because our guard play is so pitiful. If we had Maliq in his place id argue we’re likely a 1 or 2 win team right now. We were only close to Texas because of Lampkin

In what world? In any world where basketball is played.

His defense is beyond atrocious and if you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. He can't guard his own guy let alone do anything with help defense, he's late back on defense more than he's on time and he's out of juice constantly.

I'm glad you enjoy his over the top celebrations and high fives with the crowd but Maliq will never not be a better player than Lampkin and I can't imagine how anyone can disagree with that.
 

 

[atlanticuse]

The Texas game Donnie had by far the worst +/- at -10. Don’t know if Red uses that at all.

I think he could have improved that if he was on the floor longer.
But it’s a chicken and egg thing.

This thread is about talent. There are countless stories about potential vs. production. Demarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf vs. Brock Purdy (and even Tom Brady). There are NBA examples too.

But Donnie was supposed to be the next coming of Carmelo, and what has happened? Not much. I am in the camp of “coaching” and “supporting cast”.

 

[Trueblue25]

In what world? In any world where basketball is played.

His defense is beyond atrocious and if you can't see that I don't know what to tell you. He can't guard his own guy let alone do anything with help defense, he's late back on defense more than he's on time and he's out of juice constantly.

I'm glad you enjoy his over the top celebrations and high fives with the crowd but Maliq will never not be a better player than Lampkin and I can't imagine how anyone can disagree with that.

Maliq was a nice piece on a bubble NIT team. Im not sure how anyone can watch our first 5 games and tell us that replacing Brown with Lampkin is our issue.

Our guard play is atrocious.
Our rotations/substitutions are inexplicable.
We can’t stay infront of our man matchups.
Our free throw shooting is deplorable (which I’ll give Brown this, he’s a better FT shooter).

This team is so laughably flawed that I’m just surprised Lampkin is someone that gets pointed to. Our chubby guy is one of a few players that seem like they’re playing with any measure of urgency.

I love Red but each game becomes more difficult to explain than the last. I’ll give him this though, the team fights and doesn’t give up.