Terrific interview with Donnie Mac | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Terrific interview with Donnie Mac

I know the numbers. That doesn't change my opinion. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

Here they do. A 'game manager' couldn't have put those numbers up. I remember him picking defenses apart that season as no SU QB has since.
 
Here they do. A 'game manager' couldn't have put those numbers up. I remember him picking defenses apart that season as no SU QB has since.
He picked defenses apart behind a really good offensive line, at least after Pugh came back, and while being supported by a really good running game after the coaching staff stumbled upon a offensive scheme change in the preseason. He ran that offense really well. But he was never asked to escape pressure and make plays on his own the way Shrader has. And Nassib had the one really good year while the first two were pretty average. Shrader has carried the offense ever since he was handed the keys. If we swap the two players, I suspect the 2010-2012 offense fairs better with Shrader than the 2021-2023 offense does with Nassib. There's no way to prove thag, but that's my opinion after watching both play.

Incidentally, Shrader's passer rating was actually a bit higher last year than Nassib's was his senior year, his highest. TD/Int were very similar to a slight advantage for Nassib, Shrader averaged a little more ypa and ypc. The two biggest differences were Nassib having more passing attempts to get his passing stats and Shrader generating significantly more production on the ground.

And so far this year Shrader's passer rating rating is significantly higher still than last year. So, I'll stick with my opinion. I would take Shrader over Nassib as a college QB.
 
He picked defenses apart behind a really good offensive line, at least after Pugh came back, and while being supported by a really good running game after the coaching staff stumbled upon a offensive scheme change in the preseason. He ran that offense really well. But he was never asked to escape pressure and make plays on his own the way Shrader has. And Nassib had the one really good year while the first two were pretty average. Shrader has carried the offense ever since he was handed the keys. If we swap the two players, I suspect the 2010-2012 offense fairs better with Shrader than the 2021-2023 offense does with Nassib. There's no way to prove thag, but that's my opinion after watching both play.

Incidentally, Shrader's passer rating was actually a bit higher last year than Nassib's was his senior year, his highest. TD/Int were very similar to a slight advantage for Nassib, Shrader averaged a little more ypa and ypc. The two biggest differences were Nassib having more passing attempts to get his passing stats and Shrader generating significantly more production on the ground.

And so far this year Shrader's passer rating rating is significantly higher still than last year. So, I'll stick with my opinion. I would take Shrader over Nassib as a college QB.


Having a good line and running game doesn't make a quarterback a 'game manager' when he holds so many passing records. Was Brady a 'game manager' because he didn't scramble?
 
Having a good line and running game doesn't make a quarterback a 'game manager' when he holds so many passing records. Was Brady a 'game manager' because he didn't scramble?
You're fixating on one phrase. Stop it. He was more of a game manager when compared to the way Shrader is capable of and required to be a playmaker that carries the team. If you like Nassib more, fine. I would prefer Shrader.

Did you not see my question about them swapping teams or did you choose not to address it? If you're using numbers as your criteria, do the numbers I cited not matter?
 
You're fixating on one phrase. Stop it. He was more of a game manager when compared to the way Shrader is capable of and required to be a playmaker that carries the team. If you like Nassib more, fine. I would prefer Shrader.

Did you not see my question about them swapping teams or did you choose not to address it? If you're using numbers as your criteria, do the numbers I cited not matter?

OK, here's another phrase. He was a pocket quarterback, like DeVito, but with, as you say a better line and running game, which allowed him to excel. No, he would not have done as well without them. That doesn't disqualify him from the list I made or necessarily put him at the bottom of it. All these guys managed games.
 
OK, here's another phrase. He was a pocket quarterback, like DeVito, but with, as you say a better line and running game, which allowed him to excel. No, he would not have done as well without them. That doesn't disqualify him from the list I made or necessarily put him at the bottom of it. All these guys managed games.
Is his team better/worse/same with Shrader? Is this or last year's team better/worse/same with Nassib?

Listen, it's fine you think Nassib was better. I rank Shrader higher for the reasons I cited. I realize they all manage games. I also think there was/is a variety of playmaking ability. The ability to do somethng off script when the designed play breaks down. I think Shrader is asked to do that much more and has more ability to do that, and I obviously weigh that more heavily than you.
 
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Is his team better/worse/same with Shrader? Is this or last year's team better/worse/same with Nassib?

Listen, it's fine you think Nassib was better. I rank Shrader higher for the reasons I cited. I realize they all manage games. I also think there was/is a variety of playmaking ability. The ability to do somethng off script when the designed play breaks down. I think Shrader is asked to do that much more and has more ability to do that, and I obviously weigh that more heavily than you.

That's fine. I don't think either Dungey or Shrader was the passer Nassib was but they are certainly more mobile. They all belong on the list of top quarterbacks. They all managed games. And they all did more than just that.
 
That's fine. I don't think either Dungey or Shrader was the passer Nassib was but they are certainly more mobile. They all belong on the list of top quarterbacks. They all managed games. And they all did more than just that.
Ok, again, you're really caught up on one phrase that I said. I never said Nassib was only a game manager. I said he was more of one than Shrader. If you define managing the game as working within the confines of the design of the plays that are called, and that's how define it, I'm sticking by what I said. If you define playmaking as having the ability to go off script, I think Shrader does that much better. Nassib was the better pure passer, so if that's what you value more, you'll have him higher. Given our oline history, I place a high value on playmaking ability and am willing to trade off some passing ability as long as the guy is solid, if I can't have both worlds with the briliance of McNabb.
 
Ok, again, you're really caught up on one phrase that I said. I never said Nassib was only a game manager. I said he was more of one than Shrader. If you define managing the game as working within the confines of the design of the plays that are called, and that's how define it, I'm sticking by what I said. If you define playmaking as having the ability to go off script, I think Shrader does that much better. Nassib was the better pure passer, so if that's what you value more, you'll have him higher. Given our oline history, I place a high value on playmaking ability and am willing to trade off some passing ability as long as the guy is solid, if I can't have both worlds with the briliance of McNabb.

You said: "I would already put him ahead of Philcox and Nassib. As good as Philcox was, he only started for one year and Nassib was more game manager than playmaker."

I'll accept the definition of a 'playmaker' as a quarterback who can leave the pocket and create plays and Shrader certainly outranks Nassib in that department by a wide margin. But a good pocket passer is more than a 'game manager'. Game manager is a title usually given to a QB of limited skills who can play well enough for his teammates to win the game. The QB most often cited as a game manage is Trent Dilfer, who quarterbacked the first Ravens Super Bowl champions. He wasn't Dan Marino and he wasn't Randall Cunningham. In our history, Ryan Nassib was an excellent pocket passer like Marino, not a scrambled like Cunningham. He wasn't our Trent Dilfer.
 
You said: "I would already put him ahead of Philcox and Nassib. As good as Philcox was, he only started for one year and Nassib was more game manager than playmaker."

I'll accept the definition of a 'playmaker' as a quarterback who can leave the pocket and create plays and Shrader certainly outranks Nassib in that department by a wide margin. But a good pocket passer is more than a 'game manager'. Game manager is a title usually given to a QB of limited skills who can play well enough for his teammates to win the game. The QB most often cited as a game manage is Trent Dilfer, who quarterbacked the first Ravens Super Bowl champions. He wasn't Dan Marino and he wasn't Randall Cunningham. In our history, Ryan Nassib was an excellent pocket passer like Marino, not a scrambled like Cunningham. He wasn't our Trent Dilfer.

Philcox was and is an incredibly and criminally underrated QB in Cuse history.
Not his fault he got stuck behind a Heisman winning deserving QB for his first 2 seasons.

He was very solid in his 1 year starting, led the team in the post-Donnie Mac era to a 10-2 record, #13 ranking.

(Nassib's team went 8-5, albeit with a very tough schedule, and losing several games while Justin Pugh recovered from injury)

And had a decent Pro career (moreso than Nassib), playing for 5 seasons.
85 completions in 173 attempts for 1,138 yards and 7 touchdowns.

Nassib was a backup for the G-men for 2 years, and completed 9/10 passes for 1 TD.
 
Agreed. Because at some point fairly early in his career both McNabb and the Eagles seemed to emphasize not wanting him to run as much. Almost seemed like caving into media and fan weirdos who were still pushing that “you gotta be a POCKET PASSER to win a Super Bowl!” crap.

And at some point he had a season ending leg injury. And also started getting a lot bigger.

He was a very good-great QB for close to a decade, but I think he/they didn’t make as much use of his legs as they could’ve after his first 2-3 years. Also, the WR’s the Eagles gave him were garbage and the one great they had for a year was a complete lunatic.
And he never had a running back who could pick up short yardage in critical situations.
 
You said: "I would already put him ahead of Philcox and Nassib. As good as Philcox was, he only started for one year and Nassib was more game manager than playmaker."

I'll accept the definition of a 'playmaker' as a quarterback who can leave the pocket and create plays and Shrader certainly outranks Nassib in that department by a wide margin. But a good pocket passer is more than a 'game manager'. Game manager is a title usually given to a QB of limited skills who can play well enough for his teammates to win the game. The QB most often cited as a game manage is Trent Dilfer, who quarterbacked the first Ravens Super Bowl champions. He wasn't Dan Marino and he wasn't Randall Cunningham. In our history, Ryan Nassib was an excellent pocket passer like Marino, not a scrambled like Cunningham. He wasn't our Trent Dilfer.
Yeah, I said that. I didn't say he was ONLY a game manager. But in comparing the two QBs he was more of one than Shrader is. I stand by that. Shrader is asked to shoulder more of the offensive load and save broken plays in a way Nassib didn't have to.

I define a game manager is a QB that is able to operate an offense within a scheme but not good at making things happen when something breaks down. It's not as simple as passing ability or the ability to scramble/run. Guys like Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady never had the strongest arms or were great runners like Cunningham, Young, or Tarkenton, but they had a way of making plays even when things went off script or ways of controlling defenses that go beyond physical attributes. In my opinion, Nassib just wasn't real strong in that area. He had a strong arm and developed into an accurate passer by his senior year. In 2012 he distributed the ball well, and he and the running game that had an 1100 yard an 800 yard rusher were great complements to one another. It was an offense where the sum was greater than it's parts because all the pieces worked so well together.

But, again, you're too fixated on one comment about being a game manager. Let me rephrase things. I think this offense places greater demands on Shrader than that offense did on Nassib. I think defenses specifically game plan more to try to stop Shrader than they did for Nassib. Despite that, Shrader produces numbers comparible to Nassib.

Because you continue to dodge my question about switching situations, I'll give my opinion on it. If Shrader is on the 2012 team, I think we are still an 8 win team. If Nassib is on last year's team, I don't think we make it to a bowl game.

All of that is why I favor Shrader. Nassib was good, especially his senior year. I just think Shrader is better. For me, the more difficult distinction is Dungey vs Shrader.
 
Gotta add this little tidbit- at the NC State game last year, when McNabb was announced(i forgot what they honored him for?), the NC State grad and his son who were sitting in front of me started shaking their heads like “ah, screw that guy”. When I asked them what their deal was with McNabb, they said they were “Eagles fans” and they were from the NJ/Philly area. I was still baffled….I think their criticism was he didn’t play good in the Super Bowl. And I was like….”yeah, but you’ve only been to a few of those? And you were in the mix every year with him?” I think they just weren’t really that big of football fans and just didn’t know that much.

But McNabb’s gotta be the best QB the Eagles have ever had? Cunningham was also a spectacular player and similarly saddled with a terrible offensive approach and basic WRs, but I think McNabb had the better overall career in Philly. I don’t know if I’m extra sensitive because I’m a Cuse fan, but the media/fans were incredibly dumb and unfair to McNabb. He was probably the 3rd best QB in the league for a half a decade.
I think the TO debacle and then McNabb's decline stupidly caused fans to turn on him. Nobody can take a great athlete for granted like a Philadelphia fan. How they didn't hate Reid for failing to put more pieces around him is beyond me.
 
Yeah, I said that. I didn't say he was ONLY a game manager. But in comparing the two QBs he was more of one than Shrader is. I stand by that. Shrader is asked to shoulder more of the offensive load and save broken plays in a way Nassib didn't have to.

I define a game manager is a QB that is able to operate an offense within a scheme but not good at making things happen when something breaks down. It's not as simple as passing ability or the ability to scramble/run. Guys like Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady never had the strongest arms or were great runners like Cunningham, Young, or Tarkenton, but they had a way of making plays even when things went off script or ways of controlling defenses that go beyond physical attributes. In my opinion, Nassib just wasn't real strong in that area. He had a strong arm and developed into an accurate passer by his senior year. In 2012 he distributed the ball well, and he and the running game that had an 1100 yard an 800 yard rusher were great complements to one another. It was an offense where the sum was greater than it's parts because all the pieces worked so well together.

But, again, you're too fixated on one comment about being a game manager. Let me rephrase things. I think this offense places greater demands on Shrader than that offense did on Nassib. I think defenses specifically game plan more to try to stop Shrader than they did for Nassib. Despite that, Shrader produces numbers comparible to Nassib.

Because you continue to dodge my question about switching situations, I'll give my opinion on it. If Shrader is on the 2012 team, I think we are still an 8 win team. If Nassib is on last year's team, I don't think we make it to a bowl game.

All of that is why I favor Shrader. Nassib was good, especially his senior year. I just think Shrader is better. For me, the more difficult distinction is Dungey vs Shrader.


Ryan Nassib started the last three years of his career and put up strong numbers each year, not just in his final year:


Both he and Shrader managed games. Managing a game means getting the team in the right formation and the right play. Traditionally to describe a QB as a "game manager" is to suggest that that's all he does and that he's not unusually skilled at either passing, running or playmaking when things break down. It is a phrase that has been used to damn with faint praise, which is why I reacted as I did.

Shrader may well be better than Nassib and might well have done as well or better if they switched teams. That is beside the point. Both were too good to be described as 'game managers'.

And with that, I'm moving on.
 
Keith Downing who lost that huge quarterback battle had a phenomenal career as a well known surgeon, doctor after Syracuse. So many successful people, not just in football but later in life on that squad.
I remember hearing that all the recruits in Donovan's class graduated from Syracuse. That's an amazing stat if it's true.
 
The occasional comparison that gets made on here to our recent good QBs like Dungey or Shrader just shows how we've forgotten how elite he was. He was just another level.
Yeah, he's on his own level as a QB here for sure. As a football player, he was a generational talent. Programs only get a handful of those guys in their entire history.
 
Ryan Nassib started the last three years of his career and put up strong numbers each year, not just in his final year:


Both he and Shrader managed games. Managing a game means getting the team in the right formation and the right play. Traditionally to describe a QB as a "game manager" is to suggest that that's all he does and that he's not unusually skilled at either passing, running or playmaking when things break down. It is a phrase that has been used to damn with faint praise, which is why I reacted as I did.

Shrader may well be better than Nassib and might well have done as well or better if they switched teams. That is beside the point. Both were too good to be described as 'game managers'.

And with that, I'm moving on.
Thank you for including the link to the stats in your post as if I wasn't fully aware of them. As I said before, I look beyond the stats to the unique circumstances within which they were generated. I'm glad you're moving on since you decided to blow up a small phrase into much more than what it was in a comment that wasn't even in response to one of yours. With that, I'm also moving on.
 

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