The Carrier Dome Renaming Thread...

[Qbobby]

True... but there isn't much value in trying to sell naming rights to "The Arch." No need to try to change it.

 

[Alsacs]

If SU built a brand new stadium at Skytop, Carrier would have no claim to the name.

If the Dome was destroyed in a tornado and rebuilt from the ground up, is it still the Carrier Dome?

Since 1980, the inside of the Dome has been reconfigured a few times (handicapped seating has been added, luxury boxes were added, meeting rooms were converted to office space, etc...). Does that invalidate Carrier's claim?

Does a new roof invalidate the claim? How about new field turf, or a new scoreboard?

John D Archbold donated money in 1908 to build a gym. The building was practically destroyed by a fire in 1947, and was gutted and rebuilt recently. Yet it's still called "The Arch".

What is the damage done to Carrier?
What is the remedy they will seek from the courts?
I already read the taxlaws from 1979(if I did it’s obvious the smart people at our universitiy have) whatever they donated they got to write off 50% of that off to their taxes they would owe the US government. It was a good deal for them.

Also when you name a building after somebody it doesn’t mean the name has to stay at what it is referred too.

Notre Dame used to play at the Joyce Center. It’s where they play basketball and hockey.
In 2009 it was renovated and it’s now called Purcell Pavilion at the Joyce Center.

The Joyce Center is still in the “name” but it’s called Purcell Pavilion.

Our lawyers aren’t idiots. They know we can stop calling the Dome the Carrier if they called it Stadium and put whatever name at the Carrier Dome and never use Carrier again.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

What is the damage done to Carrier?
What is the remedy they will seek from the courts?
I already read the tax the laws from 1979 whatever they donated they got to write off 50% of that off to their taxes they would owe the US government. It was a good deal for them.

Also when you name a building after somebody it doesn’t mean the name has to stay at what it is referred too.

Notre Dame used to play at the Joyce Center. It’s where they play basketball and hockey.
In 2009 it was renovated and it’s now called Purcell Pavilion at the Joyce Center.

The Joyce Center is still in the “name” but it’s called Purcell Pavilion.

Our lawyers aren’t idiots. They know we can stop calling the Dome the Carrier if they called it Stadium and put whatever name at the Carrier Dome and never use Carrier again.

Suppose SU wants to build a new dorm for law school students, and you make a "lifetime naming gift" to the tune of $20 million.

And "Alsacs Hall" is built.

15 years later, SU puts a new roof on the place, yanks your name off, and sells naming rights to the highest bidder.

Do you have a valid lawsuit?

Clearly if SU's concept of a "lifetime naming gift" is only good for 10-15 years, it's not really good for a lifetime.

You should sue for fraud.

 

[Alsacs]

Suppose SU wants to build a new dorm for law school students, and you make a "lifetime naming gift" to the tune of $20 million.

And "Alsacs Hall" is built.

15 years later, SU puts a new roof on the place, yanks your name off, and sells naming rights to the highest bidder.

Do you have a valid lawsuit?

Clearly if SU's concept of a "lifetime naming gift" is only good for 10-15 years, it's not really good for a lifetime.

You should sue for fraud.

I don’t have a valid lawsuit. In your scenario. I mean you can sue for anything but that lawsuit wouldn’t survive summary judgment.

What damage have I suffered?

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I don’t have a valid lawsuit. In your scenario. I mean you can sue for anything but that lawsuit wouldn’t survive summary judgment.

What damage have I suffered?

You made a donation with the understanding that your name would be on the building forever.

Not just for 10-15 years.

Maybe if you were only going to be the "temporary" namesake, you donate less money?

 

[Alsacs]

You made a donation with the understanding that your name would be on the building forever.

Not just for 10-15 years.

Maybe if you were only going to be the "temporary" namesake, you donate less money?

I get what you are saying but it’s very unlikely a lawsuit would be successful.

When you give a gift you aren’t expecting any benefit though. Legally you have to show some real deceit to get that back. Your scenario wouldn’t really show that. I am sure you could come up with some that would show it.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If they call it anything other than The Dome, they should have their heads examined. And they should fire whoever is in charge of marketing in the AD's office. They have 40 years of brand equity in "The Dome". The "Carrier" part of the name is disposable. "The Dome" is what most of the announcers (and athletes) call it anyway.

 

[DoubleDee]

Perhaps Senator Francis Hendricks' legacy won't mind if we change things up a little. Chapstick Chapel? KIA Sanctuary at Hendricks Chapel?

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I don’t have a valid lawsuit. In your scenario. I mean you can sue for anything but that lawsuit wouldn’t survive summary judgment.

What damage have I suffered?

The $20 mil donation.

 

[Alsacs]

The $20 mil donation.

I made a “gift.
When you give a gift you have no expectations. You can rename anything you want. Typically organizations will also give the money back or donate it to another cause for PR reasons.

You are under no obligation to give back a gift.

 

[reedny]

I don’t have a valid lawsuit. In your scenario. I mean you can sue for anything but that lawsuit wouldn’t survive summary judgment.

What damage have I suffered?

Let's tweak the assumptions in our exercise: What if the donor isn't a person but a company .. that (mostly) moves out of town but continues to extract commercial value from the dorm to the tune of 10-15 times its initial investment, not counting tax benefits. Then let's change the time horizon to 40 years; and let's go beyond roofing shingles and gut the "dorm" from top to bottom, new footers, steel, interior spaces, HVAC and a SOA roofing system that changes the entire look of the place .. it's still the same shell but it's substantially transformed. And then lets assume that the company sues the (NFP) educational institution to "perpetuate" it's cash cow with no further investment in the project or in the community. In the lawsuit, it's conceded that the Company name is still on the dorm, at the bottom of one of the concrete panels. And the U has left it there but started using different names for the facility because (we don't know so we assume that) the agreement was either a gift with no promise or a naming deal that didn't confer "exclusive" rights to the company. And it's also revealed that the U has sold many other "rights" to portions of the interior and exterior that were not (it can be inferred) expressly prohibited by the agreement, in order to fund maintenance and improvements for the continued enjoyment of students, faculty, alumni and the community.

Good luck in court.

 

[maxxyz]

I made a “gift.
When you give a gift you have no expectations. You can rename anything you want. Typically organizations will also give the money back or donate it to another cause for PR reasons.

You are under no obligation to give back a gift.

But with the donation you have a contract that states it will be called Alsacs Hall in perpetuity. You lost that and it has value. SU deliberately violated the terms of your contract in order to resell the naming rights. I’m not a lawyer but that seems to be a pretty solid case to me. Plus it would be a bad look for future fundraising.

 

[Qbobby]

Do you? Maybe in your example but we have yet to see the contract to demonstrate that as far as Carrier is concerned.

 

[javadoc]

You might be right, but unless you’ve read the contract you don’t have any idea.

Is there any case law surrounding this issue?

I know that with regard to some building code regulations, grandfathered structures are exempt, unless renovations of some degree/scope are made, at which point the structure is essentially considered a new building and has to be fully compliant with the latest codes. Does a similar analysis apply here, or could it?

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

I made a “gift.
When you give a gift you have no expectations. You can rename anything you want. Typically organizations will also give the money back or donate it to another cause for PR reasons.

You are under no obligation to give back a gift.

It was a gift conditioned upon the naming.

 

[Alsacs]

I made a “gift.
When you give a gift you have no expectations. You can rename anything you want. Typically organizations will also give the money back or donate it to another cause for PR reasons.

You are under no obligation to give back a gift.

But with the donation you have a contract that states it will be called Alsacs Hall in perpetuity. You lost that and it has value. SU deliberately violated the terms of your contract in order to resell the naming rights. I’m not a lawyer but that seems to be a pretty solid case to me. Plus it would be a bad look for future fundraising.

Contract isn’t a gift.
Contract means I gave consideration for the naming rights. That isn’t a gift.

 

[All4SU]

Suppose SU wants to build a new dorm for law school students, and you make a "lifetime naming gift" to the tune of $20 million.

And "Alsacs Hall" is built.

15 years later, SU puts a new roof on the place, yanks your name off, and sells naming rights to the highest bidder.

Do you have a valid lawsuit?

Clearly if SU's concept of a "lifetime naming gift" is only good for 10-15 years, it's not really good for a lifetime.

You should sue for fraud.

The question always asked is “Whose lifetime?”

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The question always asked is “Whose lifetime?”

Our Lifetime !

 

[Alsacs]

It was a gift conditioned upon the naming.

Carrier Dome is dead. I can answer this more in-depth but it’s not easy to type and explain in a short couple sentences.

 

[SUOrange44]

I get what you are saying but it’s very unlikely a lawsuit would be successful.

When you give a gift you aren’t expecting any benefit though. Legally you have to show some real deceit to get that back. Your scenario wouldn’t really show that. I am sure you could come up with some that would show it.

Was it really a gift or was it one of the earliest versions of a naming rights agreement?

when I gave my contribution a few weeks ago, it was intended for the use of SU Athletics at their discretion. If I conditioned that upon the re-naming of their website after me...that may have been something else entirely.

i imagine others gave “gifts” albeit smaller at the time The Dome was being built.

The details are important. Then again, the only real thing I got out of my Contracts class was a solid Kentucky Derby tip from the professor.

SUOrange44

 

[Alsacs]

Was it really a gift or was it one of the earliest versions of a naming rights agreement?

when I gave my contribution a few weeks ago, it was intended for the use of SU Athletics at their discretion. If I conditioned that upon the re-naming of their website after me...that may have been something else entirely.

i imagine others gave “gifts” albeit smaller at the time The Dome was being built.

The details are important. Then again, the only real thing I got out of my Contracts class was a solid Kentucky Derby tip from the professor.

SUOrange44

It’s a gift so they can get the tax benefits.

All these donations are classified as “gifts” for tax purposes.
It’s not a naming rights deal as that can’t be used as a tax write off.

 

[All4SU]

Our Lifetime !

Well crap! Carrier could have bought that for a buck fifty and a free filter.

 

[JOC44]

Never hire a lawyer who says you're going to win a contract dispute without asking to see the contract.

 

[maxxyz]

Contract isn’t a gift.
Contract means I gave consideration for the naming rights. That isn’t a gift.

There are lots of gifts/donations to universities that have contracts obligating the university to use the money in a specific way. It is not typical to have a donation in excess of 1M without a written agreement.

 

[DuxburyO]

It's "The Dome". Ask anyone around the country what is the name of the building that Syracuse University plays its football/basketball/lacrosse games at and 9 times out of 10 that will be the answer. Makes sense to me because it IS a dome, Carrier be damned.

Oh and if you ask what time it is, 11 out of 10 respondents will obviously come up with the obvious answer.