The Coyle decision

[Bayside44]

that punt against clemson begs to differ

They pulled a lot of rabbits out for those games, but it's just an opinion. Doesn't matter, he didn't and we lost.

 

[TheCusian]

It isn't a good analogy because the coach could be had this year for only an extra year on their contract. If the new coach salary is around 2-2.5 million and SS makes 1.4 million we basically tanking a year to save 2.5 million and have an awful year in the process. That makes no sense. If SS isn't the long term answer in the eyes of Coyle keeping him an extra year just to suffer a bad transition year and asking your consumers to pay money for that is bad business.

You're assuming that Coyle would be keeping him around just to get through a travel year with a firing at the end - it could be keeping him around to see if he needs more time to see if the guy is worth keeping AND to get through a weird no home game situation.

 

[Alsacs]

You're assuming that Coyle would be keeping him around just to get through a travel year with a firing at the end - it could be keeping him around to see if he needs more time to see if the guy is worth keeping AND to get through a weird no home game situation.

That was the point Millhouse was making. That the reward of an extra year would be another coach for the tanking the year.

If Coyle keeps SS for 2016 he has to believe he is the guy for the long term and extend the guy. If he believes in SS I would give Coyle more respect that just keeping the guy because nobody wants the no home game situation so we gotta stay the course. Keeping SS for 2016 just because no coach will take the job is a completely unbelievable.

If Coyle keeps SS he is owning the results of the coach and I won't believe next year Coyle could do any better. The reason why is if the AD Coyle wanted a HC for 2016 and they wouldn't take the job because of 1 year with no home games they shouldn't be HC of SU. It is BS excuse. Coaches would use it for leverage to get themselves a better a contract pure and simple not decline the job because of it. If we are only talking about 1 year away from the Dome that isn't a reason not take a job.

 

[Millhouse]

It isn't a good analogy because the coach could be had this year for only an extra year on their contract. If the new coach salary is around 2-2.5 million and SS makes 1.4 million we basically tanking a year to save 2.5 million and have an awful year in the process. That makes no sense.
If SS isn't the long term answer in the eyes of Coyle keeping him an extra year just to suffer a bad transition year and asking your consumers to pay money for that is bad business.

next year's babers won't have to be sold on playing 12 road games. there'll be other good coaches

 

[Millhouse]

You're assuming that Coyle would be keeping him around just to get through a travel year with a firing at the end - it could be keeping him around to see if he needs more time to see if the guy is worth keeping AND to get through a weird no home game situation.

i'm making the same assumption as balsacs

 

[reedny]

Fair enough. For me, I look at the 3 previous games where the offense failed to score a 2nd half TD and I don't have a lot of faith.

Fair enough. But tell me, was that coaching, or the fact that our O line is not opening up enough holes, that we don't have a TE that can get separation (or catch it when he does), that our RB, while tricky, is small and slow, or that our WR's struggle to get separation against mid-level ACC teams, etc., etc.. (you get the point).

I think you'd have to be a magician to "scheme" away all these personnel weaknesses.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Well, if that's the case then I guess we aren't recruiting better talent then are we? Or the staff can't figure out the right players to play?

I think lots of coaches can scheme to cover up for weaknesses, or are we to believe that Toledo and Bowling Green have better talent right now?

 

[SWC75]

Why would a coaching change "interrupt the flow of talent"?

And why do some think that there will be more top jobs opening up this year than next year or any other year?

1) Because it already did. That's why our best players are almost all freshmen and sophomores right now.

2) Because there are, which is why everybody on every show is talking about it.

 

[Chris02M]

That was the point Millhouse was making. That the reward of an extra year would be another coach for the tanking the year.

If Coyle keeps SS for 2016 he has to believe he is the guy for the long term and extend the guy. If he believes in SS I would give Coyle more respect that just keeping the guy because nobody wants the no home game situation so we gotta stay the course. Keeping SS for 2016 just because no coach will take the job is a completely unbelievable.

If Coyle keeps SS he is owning the results of the coach and I won't believe next year Coyle could do any better. The reason why is if the AD Coyle wanted a HC for 2016 and they wouldn't take the job because of 1 year with no home games they shouldn't be HC of SU. It is BS excuse. Coaches would use it for leverage to get themselves a better a contract pure and simple not decline the job because of it. If we are only talking about 1 year away from the Dome that isn't a reason not take a job.

i disagree with your first point.He just arrived here 5 months ago maybe he wants to take the year to truly evaluate the entire program from top to bottom and figure out why we aren't winning more games, why fans wont come to games, whats up with the Carrier Dome renovations. This is not a clear cut decision and are pros and cons of both sides which is why this is such a good debate,whatever side your on your not wrong but the other side has points that are valid

 

[Chris02M]

Well, if that's the case then I guess we aren't recruiting better talent then are we? Or the staff can't figure out the right players to play?

I think lots of coaches can scheme to cover up for weaknesses, or are we to believe that Toledo and Bowling Green have better talent right now?

toledo and BG are playing easier teams

 

[Chip]

If keeping Shafer another year was a mistake, it cost us 1 year.

If the next guy is a mistake, it costs us 3 years or more.

If the move is made, the confidence level in the guy has to be real high and has to be someone that Coyle wants and will own.

And yes I know any new hire whether it be this year or next will have some risk involved.

And no I'm not advocating Shafer has to be retained. I'm advocating that whatever the decision is, I have faith in SU and Coyle.

At the end of the day, I agree. I trust Coyle to get it right. And if he's not wowed by anyone in this round and has to wait a year, fine. But the risk is that he has to find the right guy next year, or your 3 year scenario turns into 4, and on and on.

 

[Cuse Action]

Me too. There are absolutely 0 good reasons for keeping him. Keeping him and extending him is the opposite of safe. It could be detrimental to the program. Bringing a lame duck HC back will only set us back further. Let's bring in an offensive minded HC that can grow with this current Freshman class. A good HC can win NEXT year, and then start recruiting fresh. Just imagine Shafer trying to recruit next season if he is brought back. He thought coaches were negative recruiting against him last year? Just imagine if he's brought back.

This is the easiest decision Coyle will have in his career. I am sure he already has a list and is going through an extensive vetting process.

You are really not sure at all. You are expressing wishful thinking.

 

[TheCusian]

That was the point Millhouse was making. That the reward of an extra year would be another coach for the tanking the year. If Coyle keeps SS for 2016 he has to believe he is the guy for the long term and extend the guy. If he believes in SS I would give Coyle more respect that just keeping the guy because nobody wants the no home game situation so we gotta stay the course. Keeping SS for 2016 just because no coach will take the job is a completely unbelievable. If Coyle keeps SS he is owning the results of the coach and I won't believe next year Coyle could do any better. The reason why is if the AD Coyle wanted a HC for 2016 and they wouldn't take the job because of 1 year with no home games they shouldn't be HC of SU. It is BS excuse. Coaches would use it for leverage to get themselves a better a contract pure and simple not decline the job because of it. If we are only talking about 1 year away from the Dome that isn't a reason not take a job.

I'm saying he could be:
- not completely sure he wants to fire him now (to be clear, I am)
- and going with the low salary guy over a rough no home field year is advantageous
- pleasing whatever influential boosters he's trying to impress this early in his tenure

I'd prefer:
- move on
- give Babers 6 years (your suggestion)
- get a free year expectation wise to install a new offense

 

[Alsacs]

I'm saying he could be:
- not completely sure he wants to fire him now (to be clear, I am)
- and going with the low salary guy over a rough no home field year is advantageous
- pleasing whatever influential boosters he's trying to impress this early in his tenure

I'd prefer:
- move on
- give Babers 6 years (your suggestion)
- get a free year expectation wise to install a new offense

If he doesn't want to fire him. He has to extend him and give him more money.
The low salary thing is stupid and I refuse to believe this even enter his mind.
What influential boosters? and if they are pro-SS that much after 14-23 I question their minds.

I agree with your prefered.

 

[TheCusian]

If he doesn't want to fire him. He has to extend him and give him more money. The low salary thing is stupid and I refuse to believe this even enter his mind. What influential boosters? and if they are pro-SS that much after 14-23 I question their minds. I agree with your prefered.

They don't have to extend him, but could do a two year with a low buyout.

He's tasked with being a good financial manager and running a tight ship - saving a mill for a year might not be a horrible idea.

There's been rumblings of "influential supporters" - boosters, Kent S, I don't know.

I'm just spit balling. I don't think he'd keep him around if he was 100% going in a different direction in 2017.

 

[chakka3421]

First. I understand Shafer has asked for either an extension or to be let go as its now hurting recruiting. Not 100% confirmed. Shafer does have a good working relationship with Sevyrud & Coyle so in my opinion this is more true than not.

Second. Coyle is ready to pull the trigger (that's what a good AD should be ready to do anyway) but understand has not been given the green light. Also the amount available to spend is in question. Needs up to $2.5 million plus $500-$600k for coordinators - basically double what they are spending now. Not sure if he should pull trigger unless he gets appropriate funding to get the guy he wants. However, paying $2.5 million is more than JB gets paid and is a political problem - you all know SU basketball paid the bill pre ACC during our down years.

Third. There are budget issues. If the Dome gets renovated starting next year, it cuts heavily into the SUAD operating budget as you lose football ticket/box/advertising revenue, you have to pay to hold home games elsewhere further impacting the budget, and Sevyrud insists on a revenue neutral SUAD budget going forward.

Fourth. The capital campaign (a capital budget is different than SUADs operating budget) - Sevyrud's legacy - $2 billion in total or in phases based upon funding below - is up for vote. I understand that the $250 million may still be available from Cuomo (he has a multi billion slush fund for projects like the fairgrounds & amphitheater projects) can also be politically earmarked for the new SU VA med school but also waiting upon Federal monies to kick off the $2 billion 10 year campaign. Outside of capital campaign adds a portion of the CNY region bid for $500 million NY state economic aid - 3 out of 7 regions bid winners should be announced next month in line with overall capital campaign - also includes a: National veterans resource complex: The council would invest $12.5 million for a hub at Syracuse University that would provide research, programming, education, training and entrepreneurship support for military veterans.

This decision is not as easy as some think it is but this is what I've heard but my sources are not as good as what they used to be. Very tight lipped up on the hill due to fear of people losing their jobs - lol was far easier to get info during Gross years. I have to surmise a lot hinges on the timing of the Dome renovation project.

However, just remember Coyle played college football, hired a successful Football HC and has been around a successful football program. He knows how to recognize success. If he thinks Shafer will become successful given his experience, we all must roll with that decision to keep Shafer and extend his contract.

 

[orangeinjersey]

toledo and BG are playing easier teams

But their recruiting the same level of talent as their peers, so they are NOT playing easier games. That being said, pro shafer claims we are recruiting so well, yet we ARENT recruiting to our peers in the ACC, therefore we dont win games.

 

[Alsacs]

They don't have to extend him, but could do a two year with a low buyout.

He's tasked with being a good financial manager and running a tight ship - saving a mill for a year might not be a horrible idea.

There's been rumblings of "influential supporters" - boosters, Kent S, I don't know.

I'm just spit balling. I don't think he'd keep him around if he was 100% going in a different direction in 2017.

1. SS can not be the HC with no years on his contract beyond 2016. He can not recruit with zero years on his contract. They would have to give him some more money in the extension. SS isn't going to add phony years without getting something so that is investing more money.
2. If he is being tasked with running a tight ship giving SS phony money makes no sense.
3. Unless these boosters are the man who the IPF is named after, the family who donated the money to rename the field after Ernie Davis, or the lady who sits behind JB at all the big basketball games. They got no major juice IMO.

 

[orangeinjersey]

First. I understand Shafer has asked for either an extension or to be let go as its now hurting recruiting. Not 100% confirmed. Shafer does have a good working relationship with Sevyrud & Coyle so in my opinion this is more true than not.

Second. Coyle is ready to pull the trigger (that's what a good AD should be ready to do anyway) but understand has not been given the green light. Also the amount available to spend is in question. Needs up to $2.5 million plus $500-$600k for coordinators - basically double what they are spending now. Not sure if he should pull trigger unless he gets appropriate funding to get the guy he wants. However, paying $2.5 million is more than JB gets paid and is a political problem - you all know SU basketball paid the bill pre ACC during our down years.

Third. There are budget issues. If the Dome gets renovated starting next year, it cuts heavily into the SUAD operating budget as you lose football ticket/box/advertising revenue, you have to pay to hold home games elsewhere further impacting the budget, and Sevyrud insists on a revenue neutral SUAD budget going forward.

Fourth. The capital campaign (a capital budget is different than SUADs operating budget) - Sevyrud's legacy - $2 billion in total or in phases based upon funding below - is up for vote. I understand that the $250 million may still be available from Cuomo (he has a multi billion slush fund for projects like the fairgrounds & amphitheater projects) can also be politically earmarked for the new SU VA med school but also waiting upon Federal monies to kick off the $2 billion 10 year campaign. Outside of capital campaign adds a portion of the CNY region bid for $500 million NY state economic aid - 3 out of 7 regions bid winners should be announced next month in line with overall capital campaign - also includes a: National veterans resource complex: The council would invest $12.5 million for a hub at Syracuse University that would provide research, programming, education, training and entrepreneurship support for military veterans.

This decision is not as easy as some think it is but this is what I've heard but my sources are not as good as what they used to be. Very tight lipped up on the hill due to fear of people losing their jobs - lol was far easier to get info during Gross years. I have to surmise a lot hinges on the timing of the Dome renovation project.

However, just remember Coyle played college football, hired a successful Football HC and has been around a successful football program. He knows how to recognize success. If he thinks Shafer will become successful given his experience, we all must roll with that decision to keep Shafer and extend his contract.

good post chakka, thanks for info

 

[Alsacs]

First. I understand Shafer has asked for either an extension or to be let go as its now hurting recruiting. Not 100% confirmed. Shafer does have a good working relationship with Sevyrud & Coyle so in my opinion this is more true than not.

Second. Coyle is ready to pull the trigger (that's what a good AD should be ready to do anyway) but understand has not been given the green light. Also the amount available to spend is in question. Needs up to $2.5 million plus $500-$600k for coordinators - basically double what they are spending now. Not sure if he should pull trigger unless he gets appropriate funding to get the guy he wants. However, paying $2.5 million is more than JB gets paid and is a political problem - you all know SU basketball paid the bill pre ACC during our down years.

Third. There are budget issues. If the Dome gets renovated starting next year, it cuts heavily into the SUAD operating budget as you lose football ticket/box/advertising revenue, you have to pay to hold home games elsewhere further impacting the budget, and Sevyrud insists on a revenue neutral SUAD budget going forward.

Fourth. The capital campaign (a capital budget is different than SUADs operating budget) - Sevyrud's legacy - $2 billion in total or in phases based upon funding below - is up for vote. I understand that the $250 million may still be available from Cuomo (he has a multi billion slush fund for projects like the fairgrounds & amphitheater projects) can also be politically earmarked for the new SU VA med school but also waiting upon Federal monies to kick off the $2 billion 10 year campaign. Outside of capital campaign adds a portion of the CNY region bid for $500 million NY state economic aid - 3 out of 7 regions bid winners should be announced next month in line with overall capital campaign - also includes a: National veterans resource complex: The council would invest $12.5 million for a hub at Syracuse University that would provide research, programming, education, training and entrepreneurship support for military veterans.

This decision is not as easy as some think it is but this is what I've heard but my sources are not as good as what they used to be. Very tight lipped up on the hill due to fear of people losing their jobs - lol was far easier to get info during Gross years. I have to surmise a lot hinges on the timing of the Dome renovation project.

However, just remember Coyle played college football, hired a successful Football HC and has been around a successful football program. He knows how to recognize success. If he thinks Shafer will become successful given his experience, we all must roll with that decision to keep Shafer and extend his contract.

This post should get 1000 likes because the info is excellent even if you disagree. It explains a lot thank you. I hope Syverud/BOT give the green light but now understand it a lot more.

 

[orange79]

First. I understand Shafer has asked for either an extension or to be let go as its now hurting recruiting. Not 100% confirmed. Shafer does have a good working relationship with Sevyrud & Coyle so in my opinion this is more true than not.

Second. Coyle is ready to pull the trigger (that's what a good AD should be ready to do anyway) but understand has not been given the green light. Also the amount available to spend is in question. Needs up to $2.5 million plus $500-$600k for coordinators - basically double what they are spending now. Not sure if he should pull trigger unless he gets appropriate funding to get the guy he wants. However, paying $2.5 million is more than JB gets paid and is a political problem - you all know SU basketball paid the bill pre ACC during our down years.

Third. There are budget issues. If the Dome gets renovated starting next year, it cuts heavily into the SUAD operating budget as you lose football ticket/box/advertising revenue, you have to pay to hold home games elsewhere further impacting the budget, and Sevyrud insists on a revenue neutral SUAD budget going forward.

Fourth. The capital campaign (a capital budget is different than SUADs operating budget) - Sevyrud's legacy - $2 billion in total or in phases based upon funding below - is up for vote. I understand that the $250 million may still be available from Cuomo (he has a multi billion slush fund for projects like the fairgrounds & amphitheater projects) can also be politically earmarked for the new SU VA med school but also waiting upon Federal monies to kick off the $2 billion 10 year campaign. Outside of capital campaign adds a portion of the CNY region bid for $500 million NY state economic aid - 3 out of 7 regions bid winners should be announced next month in line with overall capital campaign - also includes a: National veterans resource complex: The council would invest $12.5 million for a hub at Syracuse University that would provide research, programming, education, training and entrepreneurship support for military veterans.

This decision is not as easy as some think it is but this is what I've heard but my sources are not as good as what they used to be. Very tight lipped up on the hill due to fear of people losing their jobs - lol was far easier to get info during Gross years. I have to surmise a lot hinges on the timing of the Dome renovation project.

However, just remember Coyle played college football, hired a successful Football HC and has been around a successful football program. He knows how to recognize success. If he thinks Shafer will become successful given his experience, we all must roll with that decision to keep Shafer and extend his contract.

Thanks for sharing this. It makes a LOT of sense, on many levels.

 

[Chris02M]

But their recruiting the same level of talent as their peers, so they are NOT playing easier games. That being said, pro shafer claims we are recruiting so well, yet we ARENT recruiting to our peers in the ACC, therefore we dont win games.

i wouldnt say anyone says we are recruitng well, most say we are recruiting much better than Marrone's time here, and have a solid recruiting base to build upon and the staff seems to enjoy recruiting and getting closer to a middle pact acc team even though most acc teams have a huge advantage in home state talent

 

[orangeinjersey]

i wouldnt say anyone says we are recruitng well, most say we are recruiting much better than Marrone's time here, and have a solid recruiting base to build upon and the staff seems to enjoy recruiting and getting closer to a middle pact acc team even though most acc teams have a huge advantage in home state talent

Id rather we be recruiting like Marrone and actually winning some games :shrugsshoulders:

 

[Chris02M]

First. I understand Shafer has asked for either an extension or to be let go as its now hurting recruiting. Not 100% confirmed. Shafer does have a good working relationship with Sevyrud & Coyle so in my opinion this is more true than not.

Second. Coyle is ready to pull the trigger (that's what a good AD should be ready to do anyway) but understand has not been given the green light. Also the amount available to spend is in question. Needs up to $2.5 million plus $500-$600k for coordinators - basically double what they are spending now. Not sure if he should pull trigger unless he gets appropriate funding to get the guy he wants. However, paying $2.5 million is more than JB gets paid and is a political problem - you all know SU basketball paid the bill pre ACC during our down years.

Third. There are budget issues. If the Dome gets renovated starting next year, it cuts heavily into the SUAD operating budget as you lose football ticket/box/advertising revenue, you have to pay to hold home games elsewhere further impacting the budget, and Sevyrud insists on a revenue neutral SUAD budget going forward.

Fourth. The capital campaign (a capital budget is different than SUADs operating budget) - Sevyrud's legacy - $2 billion in total or in phases based upon funding below - is up for vote. I understand that the $250 million may still be available from Cuomo (he has a multi billion slush fund for projects like the fairgrounds & amphitheater projects) can also be politically earmarked for the new SU VA med school but also waiting upon Federal monies to kick off the $2 billion 10 year campaign. Outside of capital campaign adds a portion of the CNY region bid for $500 million NY state economic aid - 3 out of 7 regions bid winners should be announced next month in line with overall capital campaign - also includes a: National veterans resource complex: The council would invest $12.5 million for a hub at Syracuse University that would provide research, programming, education, training and entrepreneurship support for military veterans.

This decision is not as easy as some think it is but this is what I've heard but my sources are not as good as what they used to be. Very tight lipped up on the hill due to fear of people losing their jobs - lol was far easier to get info during Gross years. I have to surmise a lot hinges on the timing of the Dome renovation project.

However, just remember Coyle played college football, hired a successful Football HC and has been around a successful football program. He knows how to recognize success. If he thinks Shafer will become successful given his experience, we all must roll with that decision to keep Shafer and extend his contract.

thanks for the info

 

[Chris02M]

Id rather we be recruiting like Marrone and actually winning some games :shrugsshoulders:

we would be in our former conference