The Greatest Baseball Player

[IthacaMatt]

Cobb is probably the best non-power hitter of all-time, he put up great numbers in a lot of categories. Home runs are such an important part of baseball and he only had 117, that's why I wouldn't personally consider him for being the greatest. If he averaged 20+ a season instead of less than 5 he'd be in the conversation.

But you see, in his era he was good at the long ball, too. The year he hit 8 (in 1911), he was second in the league. He went for double digit homers 3 times, I think (without looking it up again), with a high of either 12 or 14 a little later in his career. That's not bad.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Mays had 1000 more ABs than Bonds.

That's only because of all the walks Bonds had later in his career. Pre-steroids, Bonds was a very good, not great, player. Afterwards, he was like RoboCop in all his body armor, sitting on the edge of the plate, not caring if he got hit by a pitch. People talk about Babe Ruth and the short RF porch at Yankee Stadium - well, I recall Barry Bonds having pretty much the same thing in SF.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Cobb is probably the best non-power hitter of all-time, he put up great numbers in a lot of categories. Home runs are such an important part of baseball and he only had 117, that's why I wouldn't personally consider him for being the greatest. If he averaged 20+ a season instead of less than 5 he'd be in the conversation.

His record of stealing home plate is probably untouchable, like DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak. Cobb stole home 54 times in his career. Ricky Henderson only managed to do it 4 times. Four times in his career, Ty Cobb stole 2nd base, 3rd base and then home plate ALL IN THE SAME INNING. Holy Crap!

 

[SWC75]

Ford was really good but he also pitched on some great teams. Nothing against him, I just think Johnson/Carlton/Grove are better

Bill James from his first Historical Baseball Abstract:

"The greatest pitcher of all time, period. The one best indicator of a pitcher's ability is his ERA and Lefty Grove led his leagues in ERA nine times. That, to me, is the most impressive credential claimed by any major league pitcher. No one else approaches it. "

Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson and Grover Cleveland Alexander were all tied for second with 5 ERA titles. White Ford has two. James pointed out that Grove pitched in good hitter's parks- Schibe and Fenway, throughout his career. He published his book in 1985. Since then Roger Clemens has won 7 ERA titles, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez and Clayton Kershaw have 4 each, (Kershaw has 4 in a row and he's just 27 so watch out Lefty!).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_leagues.shtml

 

[SWC75]

His record of stealing home plate is probably untouchable, like DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak. Cobb stole home 54 times in his career. Ricky Henderson only managed to do it 4 times. Four times in his career, Ty Cobb stole 2nd base, 3rd base and then home plate ALL IN THE SAME INNING. Holy Crap!

Ah! but did he ever steal first?

 

[SWC75]

But you see, in his era he was good at the long ball, too. The year he hit 8 (in 1911), he was second in the league. He went for double digit homers 3 times, I think (without looking it up again), with a high of either 12 or 14 a little later in his career. That's not bad.

From Baseball Reference.com:

"Cobb was rarely recognized for his power but he led the league in Slugging Percentage 8 times, was in the top 5 in Home Runs 7 times, led the league in home runs in 1909 with 9, and led the league in RBIs 4 times. In later life, he sneered at the new breed of power hitters claiming that he could have hit a bunch of home runs if he had wanted to but that he preferred a more scientific approach to the game any way . This boast was part of his furious rivalry with Babe Ruth, who threatened to take away from him the title of "greatest baseball player ever". On May 5, 1925, he hit three home runs in one game, reputedly to prove to reporters that he was indeed serious about this boast. It is also true that despite his excellent power, he was an outstanding bunter, and made defenses pay if they tried to play him back."

 

[bevosu]

Warren Spahn (lefty) was a great pitcher...lost 3 years during WW ll...when he was 22- 23-24 years old. May not be a top 10, but if he hadn't lost those years?

 

[Toga]

Warren Spahn (lefty) was a great pitcher...lost 3 years during WW ll...when he was 22- 23-24 years old. May not be a top 10, but if he hadn't lost those years?

Spahn, Sain and pray for rain.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

It's considerably harder to hit a triple than it is to hit a home run. Bonds had 762 homers and 77 triples.

Triples are failed home runs. They are so products of speed (in addition to hitting) situation (never make the 1st or third out at 3rd base) and who is on base in front of you. They are more rate, but not necessarily harder to hit.

 

[obliterata]

Mays had 1000 more ABs than Bonds.

Yes he did, 1034 to be exact. And Bonds had 1448 more than Ruth.

 

[SWC75]

Yes he did, 1034 to be exact. And Bonds had 1448 more than Ruth.

Barry Bonds had 110 more plate appearances than Willie Mays. And almost 2,000 more than Ruth.

 

[obliterata]

But you see, in his era he was good at the long ball, too. The year he hit 8 (in 1911), he was second in the league. He went for double digit homers 3 times, I think (without looking it up again), with a high of either 12 or 14 a little later in his career. That's not bad.

No, that's not bad at all for that era then. Obviously I knew they didn't hit as many home runs back then but I didn't realize it was so few. He was a better slugger than I thought.

 

[obliterata]

Triples are failed home runs. They are so products of speed (in addition to hitting) situation (never make the 1st or third out at 3rd base) and who is on base in front of you. They are more rate, but not necessarily harder to hit.

If triples were easier to hit than homers then a) more all-time triples would've been hit than homers, and, b) most career hits by a player wouldn't be 309 triples and 762 homers.

 

[obliterata]

Barry Bonds had 110 more plate appearances than Willie Mays. And almost 2,000 more than Ruth.

Yeah, walks killed his at bats. With that said, what Ruth did with almost 1500 fewer ABs than Bonds is very impressive.

 

[Knicks411]

Bill James from his first Historical Baseball Abstract:

"The greatest pitcher of all time, period. The one best indicator of a pitcher's ability is his ERA and Lefty Grove led his leagues in ERA nine times. That, to me, is the most impressive credential claimed by any major league pitcher. No one else approaches it. "

Sandy Koufax, Walter Johnson, Christy Mathewson and Grover Cleveland Alexander were all tied for second with 5 ERA titles. White Ford has two. James pointed out that Grove pitched in good hitter's parks- Schibe and Fenway, throughout his career. He published his book in 1985. Since then Roger Clemens has won 7 ERA titles, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez and Clayton Kershaw have 4 each, (Kershaw has 4 in a row and he's just 27 so watch out Lefty!).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/earned_run_avg_leagues.shtml

Have you read both abstracts? I've only seen the second one, just wonder how much material is similar, if not outright the same.
I think Johnson has an argument for passing Grove as best lefty of all time. 9 ERA titles though is sick; I know it's been at least anecdotally said that at times the A's messed around with their rotation to have Grove skip the Yankees, but still.

 

[Alsacs]

Forget Randy Johnson who I think is the greatest LHP of alltime if you had to start 1 game tomorrow who are you starting between an in his prime Lefty Grove or an in his prim Sandy Koufax? I am taking Koufax. Grove is an alltime great but wouldn't rank as a top 2 LHP alltime pitcher.

On my list I guess I would bump Mantle off 1b and put either Pujols or Gehrig. Either would be fine. I think Joe Morgan or Ryne Sandburg would be in the discussion at 2b but Jackie Robinson all around contributions are why I put him first.

3b is pretty easy with Mike Schmidt. SS you gotta give it to A-Rod unless you ding him for PEDs then you pick from Jeter, Wagner, Ripken, Banks in the discussion. Even without any MVPs I think it might be Jeter.

OF- If Bonds didn't have PEDs in he would be in OF instead of Mays, but with 2001-2007 appearing tainted I give it Mays. Without PEDs Bonds is a HOF I believe, but with them it made a HOFer put GOAT stats.
Ruth and Aaron are locks for the OF.

In the discussion Ted Williams, Mantle, Frank Robinson, DiMaggio. Ty Cobb, Ken Griffey Jr.(Griffey made the all 20th century team over Bonds in 2000 people forget that)

No idea which position to consider Pete Rose at.

 

[Knicks411]

Forget Randy Johnson who I think is the greatest LHP of alltime if you had to start 1 game tomorrow who are you starting between an in his prime Lefty Grove or an in his prim Sandy Koufax? I am taking Koufax. Grove is an alltime great but wouldn't rank as a top 2 LHP alltime pitcher..

Koufax benefited from being in an extreme pitchers park in an extreme pitchers era. He was still incredible for his run, but you can't compare his numbers to those of Grove or Johnson without adjusting for this. In 1931, for instance, Lefty Grove had an ERA of 2.06; the AL in 1931 had an era of 4.38, and his home park increased run scoring by 6%. Koufax's lowest ERA was his last year, 1.73 in 1966. The NL in 1966 had an ERA of 3,61, and Dodger stadium repressed run scoring by about 8%.
I would agree that Koufax at his best is right there with just about anyone, but I don't think that's all there is to deciding who the best of all time is.

Ken Griffey Jr.(Griffey made the all 20th century team over Bonds in 2000 people forget that)

Which even at the time was a pretty big mistake; even if you forget everything that happened from 2000 on.

 

[SWC75]

Have you read both abstracts? I've only seen the second one, just wonder how much material is similar, if not outright the same.
I think Johnson has an argument for passing Grove as best lefty of all time. 9 ERA titles though is sick; I know it's been at least anecdotally said that at times the A's messed around with their rotation to have Grove skip the Yankees, but still.

I've got both and quote from both of them. In some cases James changes his mind about player but not here. In the first he ranks pitcher sin two categories: right handed and left handed. Walter Johnson is the greatest righty, Lefty Grove the greatest lefty. In the new one, which came out in 2000 (isn't he due for another?), he just rates them all together but has Johnson #1 based on longevity and Grove #2. But he points out that Grove was already a greta pitcher when he was in the then independent International league, helping the Baltimore Orioles win seven straight pennants.

Johnson never played in the minors, per Baseball Reference.com, (excpt for one game in 1928 when he was managing and didn't get a decision. He was 417-279 with 3509 strike-outs in his major league career . Grove, if you add in his minor league stats, (almost all with the orioles), was 411-180 with exactly the a=same number of strike-outs. .

 

[bevosu]

Spahn won more games than any other lefty and if he hadn't missed 3 prime years while in the service he would easily be #3 on the all time win list and possibly #2.

Not saying he's the best lefty ever, just that he deserves more recognition than he gets.

One game? Koufax at his prime.

 

[Knicks411]

I've got both and quote from both of them. In some cases James changes his mind about player but not here. In the first he ranks pitcher sin two categories: right handed and left handed. Walter Johnson is the greatest righty, Lefty Grove the greatest lefty. In the new one, which came out in 2000 (isn't he due for another?), he just rates them all together but has Johnson #1 based on longevity and Grove #2. But he points out that Grove was already a greta pitcher when he was in the then independent International league, helping the Baltimore Orioles win seven straight pennants.

Johnson never played in the minors, per Baseball Reference.com, (excpt for one game in 1928 when he was managing and didn't get a decision. He was 417-279 with 3509 strike-outs in his major league career . Grove, if you add in his minor league stats, (almost all with the orioles), was 411-180 with exactly the a=same number of strike-outs. .

Not sure if he's going to be doing anymore; I think he's still working with the Red Sox, so I don't know if he'd have the time to spend on it. Amazing that the last one was 15 years ago. I'll still pick it up and read random pages here and there.

I remember the bit about Grove, it's a really good point and something we can't really conceive of today since the minor league structure was so different. Grove didn't make his debut till he was 25; he did struggle a bit as a rookie but considering how great his numbers with Baltimore were it isn't hard to imagine he would have been a great major leaguer at 22 or 23. I would think there is a decent chance James would rank Clemens as the best pitcher of all time if he did another edition.

Spahn won more games than any other lefty and if he hadn't missed 3 prime years while in the service he would easily be #3 on the all time win list and possibly #2.

Not saying he's the best lefty ever, just that he deserves more recognition than he gets.

One game? Koufax at his prime.

Agree on Spahn, from age 35-42 he won 20,21,22,21,21,18, and 23 games. Pretty incredible. I don't know how many wins the war cost him though, he only appeared in 2 games in 42 before the war started. He was great right when he came back in 46, but it wasn't a full season (don't know the story behind that, in fairness) but it's possible he was more of a late bloomer.

 

[skurey]

Bonds pulls a 100 mph fastball foul! Then he crushes a homer to center.

 

[SWC75]

Bonds pulls a 100 mph fastball foul! Then he crushes a homer to center.

McGwire vs. Johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stUolWxG3wo

 

[AZOrange]

Ruth was the best and he was the best playing fat. So he's two times better than everyone for that. Plus he used a small tree to hit. 40-50 ounce bats? Lol, let's see bonds swing that...

 

[two3zone]

Rickey Henderson would probably top my list after Bonds*.