The Greatest Baseball Player

[obliterata]

It is interesting that you say this since so many of us in the "money ball" era now view batting average as an overrated stat.

Batting average is not an overrated stat, it's the fairest of them all. BA doesn't care how much power you have, how fast you are, whether you're a clutch hitter or not, whether you're 6'3" and 220 or 5'6" and 160 or 6'3" and 160, how you're doing in other categories, how far you can hit a ball, your career numbers, whether you take performance enhancing drugs or not...all the BA cares about is whether you can make contact with the ball, keep it in play, and reach first base. Simple.

 

[Toga]

Love the convo -- So would your all time outfield be Barry Willie and Ruth? Griffey? Mantle? This is why I fell in love with baseball. So many top tier guys at all different generations. Incredible!

Willie, Barry, Mick. Babe DH. He played in the AL - come on!

 

[UnknownOrange]

DH wasnt around in his time Toga ! So you come on!

 

[obliterata]

Yeah batting average is not even close to the most important stat. And triples?

The most important basic offensive stat is, pretty much by far, OBP. Correlates to runs scored better than anything else.

Yeah, triples.

Baseball's all-time leading base totals:

singles: 3215
doubles: 792
triples: 309
homers: 762

It's by far harder to hit a triple than it is to hit anything else. For a guy in the discussion of being the greatest player ever Bonds, more than Mays and Ruth, proved how hard it is. 77 triples is borderline pathetic.

 

[Toga]

Yeah, triples.

Baseball's all-time leading base totals:

singles: 3215
doubles: 792
triples: 309
homers: 762

It's by far harder to hit a triple than it is to hit anything else. For a guy in the discussion of being the greatest player ever Bonds, more than Mays and Ruth, proved how hard it is. 77 triples is borderline pathetic.

Tough making the turn at second when weighed down by a massive neck. Doubly hard cuz you can't turn your head to pick up the 3rd base coach.

 

[Knicks411]

Triples are less rare than other hits, it doesn't make them more valuable. A homer is still better than a triple.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Yeah, triples.

Baseball's all-time leading base totals:

singles: 3215
doubles: 792
triples: 309
homers: 762

It's by far harder to hit a triple than it is to hit anything else. For a guy in the discussion of being the greatest player ever Bonds, more than Mays and Ruth, proved how hard it is. 77 triples is borderline pathetic.

So, it's harder to hit it just short of the fence than over the fence?

 

[MikeSU02]

The fact that Babe Ruth could have made the Hall of Fame as a pitcher ends the conversation for me.

As far as Ruth as a hitter, read this book and see what you think:

Here's a stat for you:

500 foot home runs
Ruth 45
McGwire 12
Bonds 0

And, of course you told us not to mention steriods.

500 foot home runs are the stuff of PR folks. I will bet you all the money in my pocket versus all the money in your pocket that those numbers aren't even remotely close to the real numbers.

And unless you get extra runs for hitting a ball farther, it's a moot point in terms of production.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah there's no chance the 500 foot number for Ruth HR is correct. (Or McGwire, for that matter).

 

[IthacaMatt]

Batting average is not an overrated stat, it's the fairest of them all. BA doesn't care how much power you have, how fast you are, whether you're a clutch hitter or not, whether you're 6'3" and 220 or 5'6" and 160 or 6'3" and 160, how you're doing in other categories, how far you can hit a ball, your career numbers, whether you take performance enhancing drugs or not...all the BA cares about is whether you can make contact with the ball, keep it in play, and reach first base. Simple.

I wonder if anyone has ever put up a better year than Ty Cobb in 1911. He hit .420 with 147 runs scored, 8 homers, 144 RBI. 248 hits in 141 games and 83 stolen bases. That's a remarkable year, in any era.

 

[Knicks411]

I wonder if anyone has ever put up a better year than Ty Cobb in 1911. He hit .420 with 147 runs scored, 8 homers, 144 RBI. 248 hits in 141 games and 83 stolen bases. That's a remarkable year, in any era.

144 RBI with just 8 HR is kinda hard to fathom. Especially in 1911.

If you check the wRC+ here http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1002378&position=OF, he actually had 2 seasons better than that, and w hole bunch just as good. I wonder what his stats look like in a more live ball environment.

 

[Lawrinson14]

He's not the greatest of all time, but I think Sandy Koufax's 4-year stretch from 1963-66 was the most dominant stretch by any player (hitter or pitcher):

63: 25w - 5L ; 1.88 ERA ; 20 complete games ; 306ks ; 11 CG Shutouts
64: 19w - 5L ; 1.74 ERA ; 15 complete games ; 223ks ; 7 CG Shutouts
65: 26W - 8L ; 2.04 ERA ; 27 complete games ; 382ks ; 8 CG Shutouts
66: 27W - 9L ; 1.73 ERA ; 27 complete games ; 317ks ; 5 CG Shutouts

That's a total of 97W - 27L in 4 years

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Ruth was great but for all around player I wonder how many stolen bases he had.

Was listening to the Red Sox game the other day and they mentioned that Ruth actually got put out on a stolen base attempt to END THE WORLD SERIES. Never knew that before.

 

[Wallo]

Say Hey. A less injured and less partying Mantle would have given Willie a run for his money.

Edit: In saying Mays - I meant best player not named Ruth.

Most people do not realize that "The Babe" was a great pitcher for five years for the Boston Red Sox. He still maintains some unbeaten records as a Pitcher to this day! No Contest !!!!

 

[Knicks411]

Was listening to the Red Sox game the other day and they mentioned that Ruth actually got put out on a stolen base attempt to END THE WORLD SERIES. Never knew that before.

Yeah, 1926 world series. Even better, Lou Gehrig was up. If something like that happened today; my god.

 

[Lawrinson14]

To be completely honest, if there was an all-time player draft...I think I would pick Derek Jeter #1. And I'm not even a yankee fan.

Seriously. The guy has the numbers, rings, charisma, and intangibles...all while doing it on the grandest stage for his whole career. All things considered (not just stats), I really do think it is hard to pick someone above him as the face of my all-time team.

 

[Knicks411]

To be completely honest, if there was an all-time player draft...I think I would pick Derek Jeter #1. And I'm not even a yankee fan.

Seriously. The guy has the numbers, rings, charisma, and intangibles...all while doing it on the grandest stage for his whole career. All things considered (not just stats), I really do think it is hard to pick someone above him as the face of my all-time team.

yeah...

Even if you just limited it to Yankees with a lot of titles, you can get to 5 guys ahead of him pretty easy

 

[SWC75]

500 foot home runs are the stuff of PR folks. I will bet you all the money in my pocket versus all the money in your pocket that those numbers aren't even remotely close to the real numbers.

And unless you get extra runs for hitting a ball farther, it's a moot point in terms of production.

Read the book. Ruth's games were covered by as many as 17 newspapers at once, each would which would report what happened in each of his at-bats in loving detail. Jenkinson took this information along with diagrams and aerial photographs of stadiums and visits to those areas and plotted where the drive landed, it's trajectory, etc. He was never a PR guy. He did this on his own, (he was a Dick Allen fan and was trying to prove how great his hero was). He knows more about this stuff than any body else. His follow-up book, "Baseball's Ultimate Power" has tons of information on every top power hitter of history. You don't really know the subject unless you've read those books.

 

[SWC75]

Yeah, triples.

Baseball's all-time leading base totals:

singles: 3215
doubles: 792
triples: 309
homers: 762

It's by far harder to hit a triple than it is to hit anything else. For a guy in the discussion of being the greatest player ever Bonds, more than Mays and Ruth, proved how hard it is. 77 triples is borderline pathetic.

Ty Cobb had 46 INSIDE THE PARK HOME RUNS:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inside-the-park_home_run

 

[SWC75]

Batting average is not an overrated stat, it's the fairest of them all. BA doesn't care how much power you have, how fast you are, whether you're a clutch hitter or not, whether you're 6'3" and 220 or 5'6" and 160 or 6'3" and 160, how you're doing in other categories, how far you can hit a ball, your career numbers, whether you take performance enhancing drugs or not...all the BA cares about is whether you can make contact with the ball, keep it in play, and reach first base. Simple.

Henry Chadwick, when he basically invented baseball statistics, was first going to evaluate hitters on what we now call slugging percentage. But he'd grown up playing cricket where the artful batter hit the ball between the fielders, not over their heads so he switched to batting average to encourage hitters, just to go for hits, not the long ball. Studies have shown the the relevance of the three main percentages to producing runs is clearly:
1) On base percentage
2 Slugging percentages
3) Batting average, and it's a distant third.

If you're pitching against the Twins, circa 1970, who worries you most: Rod Carew or Harmon Killebrew?

 

[Noexcuse]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-greatest-mlb-players

I wouldn't rate him number one, but here is what 2 guys rated higher had to say about DiMaggio:

"There was never a day when I was as good as Joe DiMaggio at his best. Joe was the best, the very best I ever saw." - Stan Musial

"DiMaggio was the greatest all-around player I ever saw. I give it to him over Mays simply because he was a better hitter than Mays. I saw him play, I saw what he could do, and I'm positive that he was a better hitter than Mays. I can't say enough about DiMaggio. Of all the great major leaguers I played with or against during my 19-year career, he was my idol. I idolized Joe DiMaggio!" - Ted Williams

Maybe they were just being nice (Williams particularly - nice guy that he was) but definitely high praise.

 

[br801]

I wonder if anyone has ever put up a better year than Ty Cobb in 1911. He hit .420 with 147 runs scored, 8 homers, 144 RBI. 248 hits in 141 games and 83 stolen bases. That's a remarkable year, in any era.

I've always liked Ruth's 1920 and 1921 seasons. While 1920 is arguably better, there's just something about those 119 extra base hits in 1921...

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/ruthba01.shtml

 

[NineOneSeven]

Barry Bonds' stats at age 39 (I think?) were dumb. OBP of over 0.600. I dont care if he was eating HGH on his hot dogs. That's fked up.

 

[IthacaMatt]

144 RBI with just 8 HR is kinda hard to fathom. Especially in 1911.

If you check the wRC+ here http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1002378&position=OF, he actually had 2 seasons better than that, and w hole bunch just as good. I wonder what his stats look like in a more live ball environment.

And remember that 8 home runs probably put him among the league leaders. He had almost 2 hits a game for the season.

 

[Knicks411]

Barry Bonds' stats at age 39 (I think?) were dumb. OBP of over 0.600. I dont care if he was eating HGH on his hot dogs. That's fked up.

Prior to 2001, the highest OBP in a single season was 553. From 2001-2004 Bonds had a 559 OBP.