The Head Coach has been the issue since Day 1

[NineOneSeven]

It's puzzling how so many people here over the years have posted critical comments about Autry but felt the need to preface them with opening lines like "I love Adrian" or " Autry is a great guy," buuuuut...

What’s puzzling about it?

 

[FloridaCuse]

Richmond and Vermont tourney losses for this exact reason.

Ah, Richmond loss. Cole Field House, University of Maryland. 1st round of NCAA Tournament. 1991. Game 4 of the day. First time a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed. I was there.

 

[FloridaCuse]

FIFY!

The program was already good prior to JB getting his first gig as a HC. Danforth had the Orangemen in the Final Four in '75 and SU was consistently good in the ECAC prior to JB.

And Fred Lewis before Danforth turned the program around. Recruited Dave Bing & JB if I recall.

 

[Irt4su]

Make them run sprints

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Listen, I loved Adrian Autry as a player. The '94 game vs. Missouri remains one of the all-time impressive performances by an SU player, even in a loss (the and-one that wasn't from the knees!).

But I don't see how anyone can look at the situation we have and state they have ever felt that the current head coach had a handle on what to do with this program in order to succeed.

First, it was lack of preparation for the portal due to being hired late (he wasn't). Then, it was lack of NIL resources. Now, what's the excuse?

This team has PLENTY of talent to win games. And I am hopeful they prove me wrong and he proves me wrong -- certainly the LeMoyne exhibition is vividly etched in my memory as a cautionary tale to read too much into these games.

However, I continue to see the same things over and over again with the way this team plays. Lack of focus, lack of energy, lack of plan or system. It's not Syracuse basketball.

The likelihood of JB's replacement being as good, or better, than JB was always going to be somewhere between slim and none - unless you broke the bank for someone with that level of pedigree, which always seemed somewhere between highly unlikely and not happening in this lifetime or the next.

Despite the issues towards the end of his almost 50 year tenure, we were spoiled rotten for 40+ years.

 

[Orangezoo]

I’m going to add that the assistant coaches own this too. We all saw a team we expected to see the last 8-10 mins. Over the game they cut to the staff with Red actively coaching and then Dan and AG sitting there looking half interested. All the sudden at about 13 mins left in the second half you see them focus in on coach Rob. While the idle crew collected metal chair splinters coach Rob was actively revving the guys up on the bench and when they came off the floor and before they went out. Immediately the energy picked up around that time. I get it’s not everyone’s personality but that is the energy this entire team needs on that bench. It’s not just the X’s and O’s it’s about the juice and getting everyone locked in and foaming at the mouth. Honestly I want to see coach Rob involved like that for 40 mins. I’m tired of pouting half interested Griff on the sidelines too.

 

[Orangezoo]

The likelihood of JB's replacement being as good, or better, than JB was always going to be somewhere between slim and none - unless you broke the bank for someone with that level of pedigree, which always seemed somewhere between highly unlikely and not happening in this lifetime or the next.

Despite the issues towards the end of his almost 50 year tenure, we were spoiled rotten for 40+ years.

Spot on. One thing however that I think is only fair, was to expect to get someone who could motivate and energize at a minimum and that seems to have been off the menu as well.

 

[Bill Orange]

Ah, Richmond loss. Cole Field House, University of Maryland. 1st round of NCAA Tournament. 1991. Game 4 of the day. First time a #2 Seed lost to a #15 Seed. I was there.

Same here. Drowned our sorrows at Bentley's after.

 

[RedtheGOB]

I’m going to add that the assistant coaches own this too. We all saw a team we expected to see the last 8-10 mins. Over the game they cut to the staff with Red actively coaching and then Dan and AG sitting there looking half interested. All the sudden at about 13 mins left in the second half you see them focus in on coach Rob. While the idle crew collected metal chair splinters coach Rob was actively revving the guys up on the bench and when they came off the floor and before they went out. Immediately the energy picked up around that time. I get it’s not everyone’s personality but that is the energy this entire team needs on that bench. It’s not just the X’s and O’s it’s about the juice and getting everyone locked in and foaming at the mouth. Honestly I want to see coach Rob involved like that for 40 mins. I’m tired of pouting half interested Griff on the sidelines too.

Saw this too and remember thinking the same. Also Sadiq was on the hot mic when he was inbounding that one play and you could hear him yell at the our whole team walking around.

We've seen young guys lead the way cuz the old guys are slacking before. We may need Sadiq and Freeman to be the dogs.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Spot on. One thing however that I think is only fair, was to expect to get someone who could motivate and energize at a minimum and that seems to have been off the menu as well.

One thing that I find interesting is the difference between the coaching trees of what I will call the "Savants" whose genius is purely internal versus the highly successful "CEO" types whose genius is still internal but can be mapped and, to an extent, replicated.

I put JB in the former category and someone like Sabin in the latter.

If you think about JB's use of the zone, it was analytics before analytics. He understood something innately that others did not and it gave him a competitive advantage for two decades.

The issue with Savants is that you simply cannot pass it on. It dies with the individual who possesses it.

To me, Sabin's genius is the process. You can (try to) replicate the process.

Just MHO but that is a primary reason why the coaching tree of JB is not particularly impressive while Sabin has a number of guys who have become outstanding coaches in their own right (Smart, Cignetti, Kiffin to name a few).

 

[KevMonstah]

One thing that I find interesting is the difference between the coaching trees of what I will call the "Savants" whose genius is purely internal versus the highly successful "CEO" types whose genius is still internal but can be mapped and, to an extent, replicated.

I put JB in the former category and someone like Sabin in the latter.

If you think about JB's use of the zone, it was analytics before analytics. He understood something innately that others did not and it gave him a competitive advantage for two decades.

The issue with Savants is that you simply cannot pass it on. It dies with the individual who possesses it.

To me, Sabin's genius is the process. You can (try to) replicate the process.

Just MHO but that is a primary reason why the coaching tree of JB is not particularly impressive while Sabin has a number of guys who have become outstanding coaches in their own right (Smart, Cignetti, Kiffin to name a few).

I would agree JB understood the zone as far as it being analytics - teams weren't full of shooters - but then
the game changed and everyone got afflicted with "Steph Curry disease" and it enough of them became
good enough shooters that it limited the zone's effectiveness, and he was slow to realize that. So, even
if the assistants are great zone D guys, and got the teachings, the zone is still not going to be as effective
when the opponent can run out a lineup full of shooters who can hit Js from 24 feet away. Sometimes it
wasn't even effective against a single guy who could hit from deep, cuz there were many games you'd
know the gameplan was "don't let X shoot", and he'd finish the game with 27 pts on 7-9 from deep.

And just reading this entire chain, about the 'lack of focus for SU players', that has always been an issue
for SU. Even going back to their great their late 80s great teams. Think DC and Billy Owens were always
focused? Noooo. They'd get way up, let teams back into, and turn it on to win, but they'd lose because
of it. SU could, and for much of the last 40 years has, gotten away with it due to sheer talent, turn it on,
lose it, then turn it back on. It's more noticeable when the talent is less. And when they maybe had less
talent, but a very challenging D, you could do it then too, cuz you could count on the opponent to
just chuck up a ton of bricks. You can't do it now, when you're maybe not as talented, and the D style
can't count on the opponent to beat themselves. If I'm playing a team, and I can count on them to shoot
25% from the field, I'm not focused on them, no way. But I doubt that's the case anymore. And I don't
think the team, not that SU is alone in this, has figured it out. Others have. They keep winning. Maybe
you do need a hardazz coach for it.

Kev

 

[atlanticuse]

The likelihood of JB's replacement being as good, or better, than JB was always going to be somewhere between slim and none - unless you broke the bank for someone with that level of pedigree, which always seemed somewhere between highly unlikely and not happening in this lifetime or the next.

Despite the issues towards the end of his almost 50 year tenure, we were spoiled rotten for 40+ years.

I think the challenge which validates your statement is ... "JB's replacement from INSIDE THE PROGRAM".

We could have hired from the outside. But we didn't.

Hop was next-in-line/coach-in-waiting, until he gave up and went to UW. Would he have been better as SU HC 5-6 years ago? Dunno. We'll never know - can't go back in time.

 

[atlanticuse]

I’m going to add that the assistant coaches own this too. We all saw a team we expected to see the last 8-10 mins. Over the game they cut to the staff with Red actively coaching and then Dan and AG sitting there looking half interested. All the sudden at about 13 mins left in the second half you see them focus in on coach Rob. While the idle crew collected metal chair splinters coach Rob was actively revving the guys up on the bench and when they came off the floor and before they went out. Immediately the energy picked up around that time. I get it’s not everyone’s personality but that is the energy this entire team needs on that bench. It’s not just the X’s and O’s it’s about the juice and getting everyone locked in and foaming at the mouth. Honestly I want to see coach Rob involved like that for 40 mins. I’m tired of pouting half interested Griff on the sidelines too.

Agree with this.
But Autry is, basically, the CEO.
He's the reason these guys are here.

 

[althea]

Same here. Drowned our sorrows at Bentley's after.

Kenny Wood from that team lives in Olney and his son is a pretty good player for the Nats. (Left field).

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I would agree JB understood the zone as far as it being analytics - teams weren't full of shooters - but then
the game changed and everyone got afflicted with "Steph Curry disease" and it enough of them became
good enough shooters that it limited the zone's effectiveness, and he was slow to realize that. So, even
if the assistants are great zone D guys, and got the teachings, the zone is still not going to be as effective
when the opponent can run out a lineup full of shooters who can hit Js from 24 feet away. Sometimes it
wasn't even effective against a single guy who could hit from deep, cuz there were many games you'd
know the gameplan was "don't let X shoot", and he'd finish the game with 27 pts on 7-9 from deep.

Why I said competitive advantage for 20, and not 30, years.

And his getting beaten by a single guy going off for an entire game were few and far between.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I think the challenge which validates your statement is ... "JB's replacement from INSIDE THE PROGRAM".

We could have hired from the outside. But we didn't.

Hop was next-in-line/coach-in-waiting, until he gave up and went to UW. Would he have been better as SU HC 5-6 years ago? Dunno. We'll never know - can't go back in time.

Yup, that was my implied, but unstated, follow-up.

Odds were more stacked against Autry.

Doesn't mean he can't, and won't, figure it out but I think his path to success is more difficult.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I think the challenge which validates your statement is ... "JB's replacement from INSIDE THE PROGRAM".

We could have hired from the outside. But we didn't.

Hop was next-in-line/coach-in-waiting, until he gave up and went to UW. Would he have been better as SU HC 5-6 years ago? Dunno. We'll never know - can't go back in time.

Look at all the high profile coaches who have retired recently.

JAB
Coach K
Roy Williams
Tony Bennett
Bruce Pearl
Jim Larranaga
Mike Brey
Leonard Hamilton
Jay Wright

Those who left off season were most likely replaced by a staff members. Others left just prior to or during the season and did so possibly so a staff member would get the job. How have all the staff members done. Not as good, but really too early to tell. Kansas will probably be the next high profile job to open, what will happen there.

You answered your own question. Cuse was never going outside the family. Just like most of the schools above. And it was supposed to be Hop. But, he took a different path.

So, let's say GMAC wins the MAAC this year and wins a game in the NCAAT. Let's say that Cuse also makes the NCAAT.

Will Cuse fans want Red to get another contract. Will Cuse fans want GMAC as HC next year. Will Cuse fans want a name from the outside.

My 2 cents is Red should get another opportunity if he makes the NCAAT, as long as he has the backing of the players, families, recruits, boosters. So, basically if Melo wants Red here next year, I am on board with that.

 

[orangecuse]

It's puzzling how so many people here over the years have posted critical comments about Autry but felt the need to preface them with opening lines like "I love Adrian" or " Autry is a great guy," buuuuut...

Hmmm. Now, you've been here since 2012, therefore, well past that greenhorn stage and are a seasoned vet. Many folks post in this fashion, preface with niceties, etc., beforehand, is done in an attempt to somewhat ease the brunt (so to speak) of them 'usual suspects' here throwing shade back, getting personal, etc., along with those typical; "how many games have you won," type malarkey.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Hmmm. Now, you've been here since 2012, therefore, well past that greenhorn stage and are a seasoned vet. Many folks post in this fashion, preface with niceties, etc., beforehand, is done in an attempt to somewhat ease the brunt (so to speak) of them 'usual suspects' here throwing shade back, getting personal, etc., along with those typical; "how many games have you won," type malarkey.

I don't know that that is the case in this particular instance.

Those of us who were fortunate enough (and old enough ) to watch him play, revere him (as a player) just like DC, Pearl, Melo, Sherm, Wallace, Owens, Bouie, Louie etc.

And, when he isn't at that same level as a coach as he was as a player, we are loathe to criticize without the preamble.

I think any in-house coach would get that same preamble, especially if that in-house coach was also a great player for us.

Just my two cents.

 

[atlanticuse]

Look at all the high profile coaches who have retired recently.

JAB
Coach K
Roy Williams
Tony Bennett
Bruce Pearl
Jim Larranaga
Mike Brey
Leonard Hamilton
Jay Wright

Those who left off season were most likely replaced by a staff members. Others left just prior to or during the season and did so possibly so a staff member would get the job. How have all the staff members done. Not as good, but really too early to tell. Kansas will probably be the next high profile job to open, what will happen there.

You answered your own question. Cuse was never going outside the family. Just like most of the schools above. And it was supposed to be Hop. But, he took a different path.

So, let's say GMAC wins the MAAC this year and wins a game in the NCAAT. Let's say that Cuse also makes the NCAAT.

Will Cuse fans want Red to get another contract. Will Cuse fans want GMAC as HC next year. Will Cuse fans want a name from the outside.

My 2 cents is Red should get another opportunity if he makes the NCAAT, as long as he has the backing of the players, families, recruits, boosters. So, basically if Melo wants Red here next year, I am on board with that.

Look at UConn. How'd that work out? Kevin Ollie wasn't bad his first couple years - then it dropped off.

JAB didn't leave the program in as good a shape.
And it's a different time with one-and-done TEAMS every year due to NIL.

 

[RedtheGOB]

As I get ready to crack a beer here and watch the toilet bowl later. Here’s a hypothetical when it comes to coaching.

What impact do you guys think Carmelo will or can have on these guys in the locker room?

I mean if I’m these guys after Pace I’d be embarrassed to have to see a HOF’er after the game walking around the locker room with how they played.

 

[Orangezoo]

Agree with this.
But Autry is, basically, the CEO.
He's the reason these guys are here.

My comment is in no way letting Red off the hook just my frustration with the assistants given we know one of them very well.

 

[tipphill]

Fortunately, SU is not a state school or like the Louisiana Governor helping to pick their next Football coach, I do not think that NYS's Governor, although an SU alum, should have any input. I think Syverud and Wildhack should appoint a committee of Syracusefan.con posters who would be among the most intelligent and vested people to find the next coach.

Although, like others, I am cautiously optimistic that this team has enough moving parts to be better this season.

I wish we were a state school. STATE MONEY. BETTER RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY ETCETCETC.

 

[Sherman20]

I’m not even saying this was universally or consistently the case. But even though my memory is cruddy, I remember very vividly some Lawrinson lounge conversations after games where we talked about how other teams played like they needed it and we would come out like we were expected to win. And then we’d ‘turn it on’ and win, and then it was like, ‘wish we came out like that.’

Had many conversations with my co-worker who was a rabid St John’s fan/alum, about the same things in the 90s. He pretty much would say something like ‘Can’t argue with the number of games he’s won. But, you always think there should have been more.’

I don’t know about “work ethic.” I wasn’t at practices. Effort is hard to define—I don’t even criticize the effort from these last two squads. Some players look like their hair is on fire and some are smoother. When I played football as tailback, I felt like I was in max-effort, full sprint, but coaches/dad said it looked like I wasn’t running hard. Even though no one was catching me. On our team, some players actually have a chance to defend if they’re right on top of an offensive player, some need to have space to react. Then there’s the ‘perception’ aspect. A lot of our fans thought Jason Hart was an incredible defender. I thought he was a paper tiger—all the motions and postures, but those weren’t actually doing anything….

Every fan base has these complaints about their team from time to time. Over 40 years, there are going to be some players that don’t work as hard as others, that lack a motor. In general, JB’s teams played very hard. Y’all are having what’s called selective memory.

 

[tbonezone]

We could have hired from the outside. But we didn't.

JB did indeed run the program down from top 20 to bubble every year/ to no shot. still succeeding one of the all-time winningest coaches at a former illustrious program would have been highly appealing to a lot of the top young coaching talent . instead we stay in house. and if the times comes when we gotta axe red , well the touchstone job is gonna be that much harder of a sell. less luster .