The Head Coach has been the issue since Day 1

[Sherman20]

I’m one of those longtime fans capable of objectivity.

Not sure why you would take peers’ public statements about one of their own at face value. What would you expect them to say? But maybe you’re one of ‘those people.’

Meanwhile, you haven’t actually contradicted the assertion that we had top three talent. “Decades of success” were appreciated, which is why it’s easy to contrast the current state of affairs. If they hadn’t been observed, do you think there would be much rationale or justification in ‘demanding’ better performance now?

I’m not a simple person. I have a great deal of mixed feelings about the program. Trying to paint me as singleminded (defending someone else’s position!) is really just a reflection of yourself.

If you have mixed feelings about the current state of the program, that’s fair. But if you are throwing cold water on the program historically/in the modern era of college basketball, I have to question your wisdom. Syracuse was a top 10 overall program in all of college basketball, over four+ decades from the early to mid 1970s til about 2016. Yes, we were below the blue bloods, but on par with the next top tier of schools like Louisville, UConn, Arizona, Michigan, and Michigan State. That’s indisputable, imo. JB was front and center to that success. And we had top talent because JB built the success despite his ly personality. His peers praise him because he was able to sustain that success for 40+ years, and they can attest personally at how impossible that can be to sustain over the long term. Only a handful of blue bloods have been able to do it. You’re entitled to your opinion but I believe all but the crankiest, most cynical Syracuse fans would disagree with you.

 

[baggerbob]

If you have mixed feelings about the current state of the program, that’s fair. But if you are throwing cold water on the program historically/in the modern era of college basketball, I have to question your wisdom. Syracuse was a top 10 overall program in all of college basketball, over four+ decades from the early to mid 1970s til about 2016. Yes, we were below the blue bloods, but on par with the next top tier of schools like Louisville, UConn, Arizona, Michigan, and Michigan State. That’s indisputable, imo. JB was front and center to that success. And we had top talent because JB built the success despite his ly personality. His peers praise him because he was able to sustain that success for 40+ years, and they can attest personally at how impossible that can be to sustain over the long term. Only a handful of blue bloods have been able to do it. You’re entitled to your opinion but I believe all but the crankiest, most cynical Syracuse fans would disagree with you.

Look anyone with any reasonable common sense knows Jim was a great coach and a sure fire Hall of Fame entry. I just have always wished he had not stayed past 2014, when he could have gone out on a high note.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

If you have mixed feelings about the current state of the program, that’s fair. But if you are throwing cold water on the program historically/in the modern era of college basketball, I have to question your wisdom. Syracuse was a top 10 overall program in all of college basketball, over four+ decades from the early to mid 1970s til about 2016. Yes, we were below the blue bloods, but on par with the next top tier of schools like Louisville, UConn, Arizona, Michigan, and Michigan State. That’s indisputable, imo. JB was front and center to that success. And we had top talent because JB built the success despite his ly personality. His peers praise him because he was able to sustain that success for 40+ years, and they can attest personally at how impossible that can be to sustain over the long term. Only a handful of blue bloods have been able to do it. You’re entitled to your opinion but I believe all but the crankiest, most cynical Syracuse fans would disagree with you.

Disagree with what? I didn’t say anything that contradicts what you just wrote.

Seems like you’re conflating posts, and projecting some sort of negative skew to a very ambiguous phrase: “mixed feelings.”

Mixed means I’m not a JB hype man or cheerleader. It means I have watched every broadcast game (-1) since 1985 and have only shut the tv off once during a game. I attended the school for four years. Thats love and commitment to the program. Not sure what else I have to do, but you seem to require absolute fealty and a selfie of me fondling a JB bobblehead….

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Every fan base has these complaints about their team from time to time. Over 40 years, there are going to be some players that don’t work as hard as others, that lack a motor. In general, JB’s teams played very hard. Y’all are having what’s called selective memory.

Thing is, it’s not just my memory. JB was questioned about it in press conferences, had the reputation amongst fans and the media for teams that didn’t reach “potential,” admitted a lack of effort/defensive commitment/defensive comprehension, and outright stated he didn’t give his players more plays because our players couldn’t remember more. Then you had him not participating in the first half of practices, choosing to ‘supervise’ from a catwalk[?]…. All of this stuff is available to refresh Your “selective memory.” Kinda crazy to call all of the above as being BS without even trying to contradict it….

Again, though, you’re erecting strawmen. No one has asserted that “in general” our players don’t play hard. Not sure why you are so desperate to deny what is known and to create bogus arguments. “In general,” we play hard. Are you good now? Print it, cut it out, tape it to the fridge.

You can also refer to a post I made yesterday-ish, where I disputed the assertions that our current players weren’t playing hard on defense….

 

[IthacaMatt]

This is the problem: "intensity", "playing soft". These are all red herrings... the issue on D is that he doesn't have a plan for when someone on his team gets beat by someone on the other team. Unfortunately in basketball this will happen more often than not, especially when playing teams with equal or better athletic talent. Coaching is having a plan for what happens when the man on the ball gets beaten and in year 3 WE STILL HAVE NO PLAN. That is inexcusable and in my opinion is a fireable offense.

Maybe I'm being naive, but do you think that part of the problem is that our coaches do not provide enough structure in the offseason?

Now, I'm not an expert at the rules of engagement, but it seems to me that in some sports, teams are using the offseason workouts to really do team work, not just individual development and pick-up games.

I believe that some teams have semi-organized summer programs where you can put in systems, so that you're ready to go when the official practices start.

If you're just starting your work as a team on Day One, I think you're already behind. Aren't sports year-round at the top levels?

It seems we have gotten better later in each of the last 2 seasons. Maybe other teams are doing in August what we're doing in October.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Maybe I'm being naive, but do you think that part of the problem is that our coaches do not provide enough structure in the offseason?

Now, I'm not an expert at the rules of engagement, but it seems to me that in some sports, teams are using the offseason workouts to really do team work, not just individual development and pick-up games.

I believe that some teams have semi-organized summer programs where you can put in systems, so that you're ready to go when the official practices start.

If you're just starting your work as a team on Day One, I think you're already behind. Aren't sports year-round at the top levels?

It seems we have gotten better later in each of the last 2 seasons. Maybe other teams are doing in August what we're doing in October.

I don't know enough about what goes on behind the scenes. But here is what I'll say... these guys are all career coaches, their assistants are all career coaches, their S&C guys are all career S&C guys. There isn't that much new under the sun when it comes to off court process so that stuff should be table stakes. If it's not then the coach should be fired plain and simple.

What I suspect is actually happening is several things that are happening because we have a first time HC who has been a career assistant coach for just about his whole career under a HoF HC who owned 100% of the strategy and was very rigid in his strategy:

1. Red has a vision for the team - play fast, put the other team under pressure, run lots of bodies at them, shoot lots of 3s. But I could get that same vision statement from chat-gpt. As a leader of an org, it is important to have a vision to motivate the team, attract new resources and investment to the team, get people excited about the team, etc... I'll give Red credit, he seems to have done a good job of this, or maybe people in Syracuse were so desperate for a change just not being JB was enough of a vision to generate new energy.

2. Unfortunately, as a leader having a vision is the easy and smallest part of the job. Having a strategy for how to execute the vision is the 2nd biggest part of the job and the hardest. This is also where someone new on the job is most likely to get exposed. I'll give you a personal example... I've been in adtech for 15+ years now and I've done it over and over. I took a new job in January in a completely new country... but the job transition was seamless because ads are ads and I was able to largely take the vision and strategy I've always had and tweak it to make it work here. I was able to do this because I've done it multiple times before under different circumstances and I had to speak to that in my interview process. Now with Red, there seems to have been minimal vetting done of what the vision was and the strategy to get it done. Now here we are... I see zero evidence that Red has any strategy for how to accomplish his vision. He is just trying stuff to see what sticks... this is year 3 and there is ZERO consistency in the way the team is structured or plays from year to year. The only consistency in fact is a complete lack of strategy.

3. Now comes the hardest part, executing the strategy on game day. What I think we are seeing is a complete failure in execution because the strategy is non existent. So to answer your question, I think the failure isn't lack of structure in the off season, it's that the players are just playing without any sort of execution plan. Or more likely whatever execution plan they are practicing is so basic that the second the execution comes up against friction it completely falls apart because it is just so surface level. I do believe Red has a vision and strategy but it's not layered enough because he hasn't had to do this before in his career. Every strategy and plan falls apart somewhat when the bullets start flying, good coaching is the ability for you and your players to react to that and we are completely missing that so far.

We missed having a true interview process after JB... maybe Red is a great interviewee and would have nailed the vision/strategy part of the process, we will never know. But we are paying the price because maybe a more experienced coach would have shown more than Red in the process. It feels like we are seeing the same issue on the football side this year where there is a great vision, but again the strategy is falling apart once it hits adversity. Given that the same dude hired both guys, maybe the problem is the hiring manager?

Anyways this post is way too long and rambling. My 2c.. if Red can't figure out the strategy part and how to get his players to execute it on game day he is done after this year. I don't think the same guy who hired Fran and Red and fell for “Orange is the new fast” should be the same guy who hires the next HC... or at least they need to pull outside people into the vetting process.

 

[AZOrange]

Maybe I'm being naive, but do you think that part of the problem is that our coaches do not provide enough structure in the offseason?

Now, I'm not an expert at the rules of engagement, but it seems to me that in some sports, teams are using the offseason workouts to really do team work, not just individual development and pick-up games.

I believe that some teams have semi-organized summer programs where you can put in systems, so that you're ready to go when the official practices start.

If you're just starting your work as a team on Day One, I think you're already behind. Aren't sports year-round at the top levels?

It seems we have gotten better later in each of the last 2 seasons. Maybe other teams are doing in August what we're doing in October.

It’s probably a decade remove but I specifically remember another big name coach or 2 commenting on how if they had JBs teams in the 80s they would have won multiple titles. I cannot recall the name but seems like it was a Pitino/knight type. I’m not denigrating what they accomplished but there was a very real undertone that a good chunk of those teams should have won more. The later JB years were certainly “do more with less types”. Not being able to keep Fab eligible was a complete joke

 

[orangecuse]

It’s probably a decade remove but I specifically remember another big name coach or 2 commenting on how if they had JBs teams in the 80s they would have won multiple titles. I cannot recall the name but seems like it was a Pitino/knight type. I’m not denigrating what they accomplished but there was a very real undertone that a good chunk of those teams should have won more. The later JB years were certainly “do more with less types”. Not being able to keep Fab eligible was a complete joke

Indeed. I recall besides some in the national media, it bleeding into our local media as well, and the "JB was a great recruiter, but just an okay coach," or along those lines. Personally, I recalled fans utter this same type sentiment at games, local radio shows, etc. around that time as well.

For a while there, the infatuation of the Carrier Dome's crowd size, ESPN broadcasts, etc. influenced recruits as much, if not more, than JB's recruiting prowess, etc., however, bottom line is that he did land them. It wasn't until that amazing run to the Final Four in '87 where JB started getting more respect, etc. as a coach and that "monkey off his back" sentiment that had been swirling around. Especially, with Vitale yacking to the world how Dwayne Schintzius was going to eat Rony's lunch, and doubled down with that same take when we faced Frosh sensation, JR Reid in the Regional Final.

 

[AZOrange]

Indeed. I recall besides some in the national media, it bleeding into our local media as well, and the "JB was a great recruiter, but just an okay coach," or along those lines. Personally, I recalled fans utter this same type sentiment at games, local radio shows, etc. around that time as well.

For a while there, the infatuation of the Carrier Dome's crowd size, ESPN broadcasts, etc. influenced recruits as much, if not more, than JB's recruiting prowess, etc., however, bottom line is that he did land them. It wasn't until that amazing run to the Final Four in '87 where JB started getting more respect, etc. as a coach and that "monkey off his back" sentiment that had been swirling around. Especially, with Vitale yacking to the world how Dwayne Schintzius was going to eat Rony's lunch, and doubled down with that same take when we faced Frosh sensation, JR Reid in the Regional Final.

Again this really isn’t a JB comment just a juxtaposition of our current angst about ethic, effort etc of the team vs cuse historically. The 1988 team should have never lost. 89 either

 

[Blanko97]

Thing is, it’s not just my memory. JB was questioned about it in press conferences, had the reputation amongst fans and the media for teams that didn’t reach “potential,” admitted a lack of effort/defensive commitment/defensive comprehension, and outright stated he didn’t give his players more plays because our players couldn’t remember more. Then you had him not participating in the first half of practices, choosing to ‘supervise’ from a catwalk[?]…. All of this stuff is available to refresh Your “selective memory.” Kinda crazy to call all of the above as being BS without even trying to contradict it….

Again, though, you’re erecting strawmen. No one has asserted that “in general” our players don’t play hard. Not sure why you are so desperate to deny what is known and to create bogus arguments. “In general,” we play hard. Are you good now? Print it, cut it out, tape it to the fridge.

You can also refer to a post I made yesterday-ish, where I disputed the assertions that our current players weren’t playing hard on defense….

Winning it all isn’t easy, I think people forget how the tournament isnt geared toward the best team winning. You have to do it in the one and done style because of timing but without a 3-5 game series the best teams are fully capable of flaming out early because of an off night

 

[baggerbob]

Winning it all isn’t easy, I think people forget how the tournament isnt geared toward the best team winning. You have to do it in the one and done style because of timing but without a 3-5 game series the best teams are fully capable of flaming out early because of an off night

Most of the time the best team doesn't win the championship. All you need is one not great game against a hot team in 6 games and you are out. Wooden's UCLA teams had it easy because they only had to beat the teams from the West to get to the final four. If they had to play more games and seeded they might not have won all those Championships. Plus for a long time only the league champions got in . Maryland with Tom McMillan, and Len Elmore were top 5 in the country didn't get in only North Carolina the league champions got in.

 

[Brooky03]

It’s probably a decade remove but I specifically remember another big name coach or 2 commenting on how if they had JBs teams in the 80s they would have won multiple titles. I cannot recall the name but seems like it was a Pitino/knight type. I’m not denigrating what they accomplished but there was a very real undertone that a good chunk of those teams should have won more. The later JB years were certainly “do more with less types”. Not being able to keep Fab eligible was a complete joke

I’d hesitate to put stock in another coach saying they’d do xyz with a certain roster. Any coach worth anything is going to think they could win more with better players. Doesn’t mean they would. And the fact that they feel that way or say that means very little.

I couldn’t picture another HoF coach thinking the opposite. None of them would see a successful team with a top 25 recruiting class somewhere else and go, ‘yeah, idk, I think I’d struggle to get them to the Sweet 16.’

 

[IthacaMatt]

Indeed. I recall besides some in the national media, it bleeding into our local media as well, and the "JB was a great recruiter, but just an okay coach," or along those lines. Personally, I recalled fans utter this same type sentiment at games, local radio shows, etc. around that time as well.

For a while there, the infatuation of the Carrier Dome's crowd size, ESPN broadcasts, etc. influenced recruits as much, if not more, than JB's recruiting prowess, etc., however, bottom line is that he did land them. It wasn't until that amazing run to the Final Four in '87 where JB started getting more respect, etc. as a coach and that "monkey off his back" sentiment that had been swirling around. Especially, with Vitale yacking to the world how Dwayne Schintzius was going to eat Rony's lunch, and doubled down with that same take when we faced Frosh sensation, JR Reid in the Regional Final.

Yeah, and of course JB evolved over time as a coach.
He changed the way he ran the zone several times.
His real gift was managing a game, and making in-game adjustments.
He was really under-appreciated in that respect.

 

[DoctahLexus]

No one has asserted that “in general” our players don’t play hard.

How about this guy I know Zelda Z from a couple days ago: "What he said was true, at least since I started watching in ‘85. Boeheim teams took a lot for granted, seemingly were unmotivated until ‘provoked,’ and won on sheer talent disparity."

If people were not making such strong blanket statements you would not see such a strong response.

 

[AZOrange]

Yeah, and of course JB evolved over time as a coach.
He changed the way he ran the zone several times.
His real gift was managing a game, and making in-game adjustments.
He was really under-appreciated in that respect.

Agreed. He won us a lot of games we should have lost

 

[mikemorg]

If you have mixed feelings about the current state of the program, that’s fair. But if you are throwing cold water on the program historically/in the modern era of college basketball, I have to question your wisdom. Syracuse was a top 10 overall program in all of college basketball, over four+ decades from the early to mid 1970s til about 2016. Yes, we were below the blue bloods, but on par with the next top tier of schools like Louisville, UConn, Arizona, Michigan, and Michigan State. That’s indisputable, imo. JB was front and center to that success. And we had top talent because JB built the success despite his ly personality. His peers praise him because he was able to sustain that success for 40+ years, and they can attest personally at how impossible that can be to sustain over the long term. Only a handful of blue bloods have been able to do it. You’re entitled to your opinion but I believe all but the crankiest, most cynical Syracuse fans would disagree with you.

Those do appear to be our peer programs but the one difference, and I’m not sure what it means, is that those programs seemed to have produced more and better NBA players than SU did during that time. Does that mean JB did more with less? Then that belies his reputation as a great recruiter. Was he a great recruiter and not a great bench coach? Well he didn’t have the NBA guys, or didn’t develop them into quality NBA players. Obviously the name of the game is to win in college, not develop NBA players, but I think there can be some connection.

 

[CuseMan4]

I’ve been saying since before he was even hired that Autry is not the guy. He’s a nice dude, he’s a good recruiter and he’ll get players. But he is not a head coach at this level. He has no presence, that a head coach needs, he can’t control a locker room/room, he lacks X’s and O’s, he’s not a smart coach. Now if Autry was an assistant here I would be happy. I think he’s a good assistant that you want. He’s the perfect good cop to bad cop. You typically want your coach to be the bad cop. Where he is hard on the players, demanding and players in turn respect you for that. But you always need that good cop assist that’s a very player friendly coach. PERFECT example to this was Boeheim and Hop. Hop was an amazing recruiter and players coach. The perfect good cop to Boeheim. I don’t think Autry has the capability to be the bad cop and I think the players still respect him. But they don’t respect him like a Boeheim, or tbh I know for a fact the players had more respect for Gmac while he was here. Autry is just not cut out for this job, like at all. Extremely nice dude, as a person I will not say a bad word about him. As the head coach of Syracuse basketball, I have a hard time finding anything good to say about him in terms of the job he does

 

[Cuseloyal]

I’ve been saying since before he was even hired that Autry is not the guy. He’s a nice dude, he’s a good recruiter and he’ll get players. But he is not a head coach at this level. He has no presence, that a head coach needs, he can’t control a locker room/room, he lacks X’s and O’s, he’s not a smart coach. Now if Autry was an assistant here I would be happy. I think he’s a good assistant that you want. He’s the perfect good cop to bad cop. You typically want your coach to be the bad cop. Where he is hard on the players, demanding and players in turn respect you for that. But you always need that good cop assist that’s a very player friendly coach. PERFECT example to this was Boeheim and Hop. Hop was an amazing recruiter and players coach. The perfect good cop to Boeheim. I don’t think Autry has the capability to be the bad cop and I think the players still respect him. But they don’t respect him like a Boeheim, or tbh I know for a fact the players had more respect for Gmac while he was here. Autry is just not cut out for this job, like at all. Extremely nice dude, as a person I will not say a bad word about him. As the head coach of Syracuse basketball, I have a hard time finding anything good to say about him in terms of the job he does

Totally agree. During Pace exhibition Kiyan had two turnovers and got blown by twice and when he was subbed out Autry said good job

 

[Zelda Zonk]

How about this guy I know Zelda Z from a couple days ago: "What he said was true, at least since I started watching in ‘85. Boeheim teams took a lot for granted, seemingly were unmotivated until ‘provoked,’ and won on sheer talent disparity."

If people were not making such strong blanket statements you would not see such a strong response.

Why are you regurgitating this, addressed three days ago? Woke up and decided you needed more semantic confrontation because you were out of coffee?

“Blanket statements.” Looking back on this thread, it’s easy to see that you are unnecessarily fussy about a statement by someone else, that you wrongly interpreted as being “blanket.” I supported that statement, and added that it ‘wasn’t universal,’ and you still can’t deal with it. Despite the references, despite that it was a commonly held belief…. Take the fight up with the internet, “history,” and your support team.

Did you somehow miss #154? Have someone help you with that if it still hasn’t penetrated.

And, as for “strong responses,” if you’re doing the Likes Count thing, look back at how many the original statement garnered, versus your overly sensitive, facts-averse responses.

 

[RedtheGOB]

I’ve been saying since before he was even hired that Autry is not the guy. He’s a nice dude, he’s a good recruiter and he’ll get players. But he is not a head coach at this level. He has no presence, that a head coach needs, he can’t control a locker room/room, he lacks X’s and O’s, he’s not a smart coach. Now if Autry was an assistant here I would be happy. I think he’s a good assistant that you want. He’s the perfect good cop to bad cop. You typically want your coach to be the bad cop. Where he is hard on the players, demanding and players in turn respect you for that. But you always need that good cop assist that’s a very player friendly coach. PERFECT example to this was Boeheim and Hop. Hop was an amazing recruiter and players coach. The perfect good cop to Boeheim. I don’t think Autry has the capability to be the bad cop and I think the players still respect him. But they don’t respect him like a Boeheim, or tbh I know for a fact the players had more respect for Gmac while he was here. Autry is just not cut out for this job, like at all. Extremely nice dude, as a person I will not say a bad word about him. As the head coach of Syracuse basketball, I have a hard time finding anything good to say about him in terms of the job he does

Not surprised by this commentary. I suspect this is what a lot of people are feeling and worried about as well.

Now all we can do is play the waiting game. The pieces are in CNY and there’s no more excuses to make.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Totally agree. During Pace exhibition Kiyan had two turnovers and got blown by twice and when he was subbed out Autry said good job

I mean you may want to give some context on that. Kiyan was playing Point. A position he’s never really played before and should not be playing in the season ever.

One could argue why the hell is Autry playing Kiyan at all, which is another story. Fennell was out and George decided to treat the game like a game at the Y so Kiyan got more mins at the 1.

 

[Cuseloyal]

I mean you may want to give some context on that. Kiyan was playing Point. A position he’s never really played before and should not be playing in the season ever.

One could argue why the hell is Autry playing Kiyan at all, which is another story. Fennell was out and George decided to treat the game like a game at the Y so Kiyan got more mins at the 1.

Has nothing to do with him trying to force drives into traffic. Plus I’m sure Kiyan has been asked to run some sets in his life

 

[LAorange44]

we all love red. We preface any criticism with that because I genuinely believe the fan base loves him. But the man is 3-17 in quad 1 games. If he wasn’t part of the family, the fan base would be a lot more nasty in their criticism. Love red, but he’s not it.

 

[SU Mania]

I’m not even saying this was universally or consistently the case. But even though my memory is cruddy, I remember very vividly some Lawrinson lounge conversations after games where we talked about how other teams played like they needed it and we would come out like we were expected to win. And then we’d ‘turn it on’ and win, and then it was like, ‘wish we came out like that.’

Had many conversations with my co-worker who was a rabid St John’s fan/alum, about the same things in the 90s. He pretty much would say something like ‘Can’t argue with the number of games he’s won. But, you always think there should have been more.’

I don’t know about “work ethic.” I wasn’t at practices. Effort is hard to define—I don’t even criticize the effort from these last two squads. Some players look like their hair is on fire and some are smoother. When I played football as tailback, I felt like I was in max-effort, full sprint, but coaches/dad said it looked like I wasn’t running hard. Even though no one was catching me. On our team, some players actually have a chance to defend if they’re right on top of an offensive player, some need to have space to react. Then there’s the ‘perception’ aspect. A lot of our fans thought Jason Hart was an incredible defender. I thought he was a paper tiger—all the motions and postures, but those weren’t actually doing anything….

You mentioned practice. I remember reading an article sometime after Pearl had been drafted in the first round by the Nets. It quoted a Nets executive as saying that they'd never draft another Syracuse player. I don't remember much more from the article except that he said that Pearl didn't even know how to practice properly.