The JHU conundrum for the ACC.

[arbitragegls]

The answer to this question is not easy...and it goes far beyond what is the significance insofar as whether JHU would increase the ACC Lax programs...because it would.

One of the key questions relates to the B1G and its desire to move into the East Coast. Even with JHU only in LAX...it places the B1G more substantially into the middle of the ACC.
--even though JHU is in Maryland and the B1G already has Univ of Maryland, it does portend a problem for the ACC in the future.

The ACC already has an associative member in Notre Dame and though this is on a significantly different level, I believe that JHU brings further positive notoriety to the ACC. And JHU really does fit the ACC better than the B1G. First it it a private university of the highest academic status (Ivy League would be best for JHU but the cost of travel may be too much to cover), it resides in the middle of the ACC and it truly is a blueblood Lax competitor.

Should the ACC take one more step from equal revenue sharing and full membership by allowing JHU to become an associate member for Lax. Interestingly, JHU has its own TV contract with ESPNU...you know, that company that owns all the ACC TV rights. Could this lead to another $$$ increase for the conference...would it provide increased content for the ACC Network...does it solve the need for a team in the Maryland-DC area??????

It has been indicated (source) and others that Louisville is moving toward a Lax team...it may take a few years to get up and running at the level of the ACC Lax teams. Interestingly, JHU is looking for a 3-5 year trial time frame to determine if conference association is best for it. That timing may prove to be a major point in the discussions...there could be an end in a reasonable time frame if it doesn't work out.

So what do you all think...should JHU be embraced as a Lax partner with the ACC...or should the ACC conference pass on the opportunity...and don't forget, JHU plays against 'Cuse, UVA, and other ACC teams nearly every year.

Discuss...and as always: ItIs Good to be 'Cuse!

 

[Alsacs]

All ACC fans believe Hopkins would be a good addition to help keep the ACC brand in Maryland somewhat. I think the addition makes sense because we already play Hopkins annually and it won't hurt us one bit, and would tweak Jim Delany and the B1G. Anything that Jim Delany is for I am against for the most part. Get it done Ninja.

 

[omniorange]

The answer to this question is not easy...and it goes far beyond what is the significance insofar as whether JHU would increase the ACC Lax programs...because it would.

One of the key questions relates to the B1G and its desire to move into the East Coast. Even with JHU only in LAX...it places the B1G more substantially into the middle of the ACC.
--even though JHU is in Maryland and the B1G already has Univ of Maryland, it does portend a problem for the ACC in the future.

The ACC already has an associative member in Notre Dame and though this is on a significantly different level, I believe that JHU brings further positive notoriety to the ACC. And JHU really does fit the ACC better than the B1G. First it it a private university of the highest academic status (Ivy League would be best for JHU but the cost of travel may be too much to cover), it resides in the middle of the ACC and it truly is a blueblood Lax competitor.

Should the ACC take one more step from equal revenue sharing and full membership by allowing JHU to become an associate member for Lax. Interestingly, JHU has its own TV contract with ESPNU...you know, that company that owns all the ACC TV rights. Could this lead to another $$$ increase for the conference...would it provide increased content for the ACC Network...does it solve the need for a team in the Maryland-DC area??????

It has been indicated (source) and others that Louisville is moving toward a Lax team...it may take a few years to get up and running at the level of the ACC Lax teams. Interestingly, JHU is looking for a 3-5 year trial time frame to determine if conference association is best for it. That timing may prove to be a major point in the discussions...there could be an end in a reasonable time frame if it doesn't work out.

So what do you all think...should JHU be embraced as a Lax partner with the ACC...or should the ACC conference pass on the opportunity...and don't forget, JHU plays against 'Cuse, UVA, and other ACC teams nearly every year.

Discuss...and as always: ItIs Good to be 'Cuse!

Obviously JHU would make a great get for the ACC lacrosse, I just have this gut feeling they will go with the BiG.

If they allow JHU to keep their ESPNU contract, then basically they shouldn't receive any monies from the ACC or the upcoming ACC Network.

The ACC interest in this may be about limiting the BiG from further incursion into the northeast, but it also sets the precedent for a Texas to keep its LHN if they ever do decide to do an ND type deal, which while not likely, could catch Texas' attention to be used further to get their way in the Big 12.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[riskylogic]

If they allow JHU to keep their ESPNU contract, then basically they shouldn't receive any monies from the ACC or the upcoming ACC Network.

The ACC interest in this may be about limiting the BiG from further incursion into the northeast, but it also sets the precedent for a Texas to keep its LHN if they ever do decide to do an ND type deal, which while not likely, could catch Texas' attention to be used further to get their way in the Big 12.

It seems to me that ND has already set the precedent. JHU could keep their own contract, have ESPN rights to their home games, while the ACCN would have rights to JHU away games. I would guess that is the same deal that JHU would get with the B1G/BTN.

 

[omniorange]

It seems to me that ND has already set the precedent. JHU could keep their own contract, have ESPN rights to their home games, while the ACCN would have rights to JHU away games. I would guess that is the same deal that JHU would get with the B1G/BTN.

Perhaps, but remember, ND is only keeping their football and hockey TV monies. The rest of their inventory is being thrown in with the ACC.

The LHN isn't only about 1 Texas football game. It's about other stuff that would normally be part of a conference network. Now, if UT were interested, and the LHN was reworked to be only Texas football games and any other sport that they may sponsor outside the ACC, then it would be similar to ND I would think.

But as it stands right now, a JHU compromise is more along the lines of the compromise Texas was seeking with the Pac and the ACC, only it would be for all sports rather than simply lacrosse.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Alsacs]

Since JHU is only Division 1 in Men's and Women's LAX and nothing else if I was Swofford I would let JHU keep its own contract with ESPNU have them play 2/3 road games under the ACC's control, and boom goes the dynamite.JHU won't need any $$$ for membership from the ACC they will be playing LAX and that is it. They already play 4 of 5 ACC teams anyway just add ND and be eligible for the ACC tournament. If Hopkins goes to the B1G then all ACC teams shouldn't schedule them and let them have a terrible SOS and beat up terrible B1G teams.

 

[Noexcuse]

Join the B1G and dominate via "Big Fish in Small Pond" or play in the ACC with the "Big Boys". My guess is they would not have the same appeal to recruits in the B1G, but the money may be the deciding factor for them.

 

[Alsacs]

The allure of the B1G is the CIC. If Hopkins goes B1G the conference would be won by Hopkins or Maryland each year. If they joined the ACC all they would need to do is add Notre Dame to the schedule as they already play the other four SU, Duke, UNC, UVA. Also, the ACC wouldn't care about the ESPNU deal that JHU has that pays them for their home games a la ND Football with NBC. While the B1G would want them to play their games on BTN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Institutional_Cooperation

 

[omniorange]

The allure of the B1G is the CIC. If Hopkins goes B1G the conference would be won by Hopkins or Maryland each year. If they joined the ACC all they would need to do is add Notre Dame to the schedule as they already play the other four SU, Duke, UNC, UVA. Also, the ACC wouldn't care about the ESPNU deal that JHU has that pays them for their home games a la ND Football with NBC. While the B1G would want them to play their games on BTN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Institutional_Cooperation

If there is ONE institution in the country that absolutely, positively, gets no benefit from being part of the CIC, it's Johns Hopkins.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[72Cuse]

Join the B1G and dominate via "Big Fish in Small Pond" or play in the ACC with the "Big Boys". My guess is they would not have the same appeal to recruits in the B1G, but the money may be the deciding factor for them.

Good points.

 

[Toga]

Only if they bring their football team.

 

[MassOrange]

Minor in the grand scheme of things, but I'm thinking about what happens if ND wants Navy as 16, as part of their taking the final step to full membership down the road. At what level is Navy's lacrosse program? Would we want both?

 

[Alsacs]

If there is ONE institution in the country that absolutely, positively, gets no benefit from being part of the CIC, it's Johns Hopkins.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree with your point, but Hopkins would have access to a lot of research/funding that comes with being in the CIC. Harvard, Yale, Hopkins have among the best medical center/research universities, but the CIC is truly impressive and would be something Hopkins would be interested in. If the allure of the CIC wasn't there Hopkins wouldn't even entertain the possibility of playing Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, Rutgers each year. All of these programs suck or are building themselves up. Hopkins and Maryland would run roughshod thru the B1G each year. If Hopkins went to the ACC they would only be adding Notre Dame to their schedule, and would probably be able to keep its ESPNU deal. The B1G would want them under the BTN umbrella you would have to believe. The only reason to add Hopkins is to F the B1G, and get into the MD market for the Southern ACC schools to recruit.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Minor in the grand scheme of things, but I'm thinking about what happens if ND wants Navy as 16, as part of their taking the final step to full membership down the road. At what level is Navy's lacrosse program? Would we want both?

Navy is a Patriot League program.

Can you imagine the ACC inviting Lehigh, or Colgate, or Holy Cross?

That's about what the chances are of Navy getting an ACC invite.

Other than one FB game a year, I don't think ND has any other interaction with the Middies.

BTW Navy LAX was 3-10 this year. Their BB team was 8-23.

 

[riskylogic]

Web rhetoric aside, the main purpose of the CIC is to lobby for federal research funds. The CIC wants to add states because they represent more senators and congressmen. (Nebraska over Missouri can only be explained by football).

In Maryland, College Park is a distant second fiddle to JHU in terms of getting federal research funding. I don't know if JHU is really threatened by UMD membership in the CIC, but if they are, joining the CIC isn't going to help them.

 

[omniorange]

I agree with your point, but Hopkins would have access to a lot of research/funding that comes with being in the CIC. Harvard, Yale, Hopkins have among the best medical center/research universities, but the CIC is truly impressive and would be something Hopkins would be interested in. If the allure of the CIC wasn't there Hopkins wouldn't even entertain the possibility of playing Michigan, Penn State, Ohio State, Rutgers each year. All of these programs suck or are building themselves up. Hopkins and Maryland would run roughshod thru the B1G each year. If Hopkins went to the ACC they would only be adding Notre Dame to their schedule, and would probably be able to keep its ESPNU deal. The B1G would want them under the BTN umbrella you would have to believe. The only reason to add Hopkins is to F the B1G, and get into the MD market for the Southern ACC schools to recruit.

There is no direct specific funding that comes with being a member of the CIC.

I am going to cut and paste a post from CrazyPaco from the csnbbs college sports and realignment board:

This has already been done, here, dozens of times, by not only myself, but others, to no avail. All of the information is publicly available if people wanted to do homework and not just make things up. Of course, they don't want to do this.

I could write 1000s of words on this process, but primarily understand that the vast bulk of federal awards come through a strenuous peer review process that evaluates primarily the science itself but also the budget feasibility. That evaluation is done in rotating (or standing for a few cycles for NIH) committees made up of scientists with expertise in fields relevant to the particular subset of applications. They score each grant and then the institute that was applied to for funds (say NCI or NIDA) determines the cut off based on funding levels (say set by their parent, NIH) and that is determined by the funding and priorities set by Congress. You are talking about somewhere south of 25% of grant applications, depending on awarding institute, are being funded and that rate is dropping.

These research funds are applied for at the individual investigator level (like NIH R and K series or T & F training grants) or at most, at a department level (P series program projects or institutional training grants). The higher levels of universities don't apply for grants, although they legally have to sign off on them because they are responsible for holding the money and providing regulation for things like overseeing human and animal research, things that are paid for by indirects. The impetus for the acquisition of most federal money comes from individual principal investigators who write and submit the grants. University presidents and provosts have nothing to do with it.

There is absolutely NO benefit for a researcher or center group applicant to be affiliated with any particular university that is in the AAU or CIC or anything else vs being affiliated with a school that is not in any such group. It is nonsense (please see the example of UCSF). Lobbying has no affect on whether a single school like Michigan or UNC or anyone gets any advantage in this process. University affiliation isn't factored into it at all. ZERO. Therefore, the idea that conference affiliation or AAU affiliation somehow matters is a complete and utter joke. You either have the scientific merit to get the award, the appropriate budget, and the ability to perform what you propose or not. It has NOTHING to do with whether your school is in the AAU, CIC, ACCIAC, MAC, Sun Belt, or Patriot League. NONE.

Regarding lobbying, it is done by the AAU, but also other groups, and most individual universities that have major research programs. The primary goal of that lobbying is to affect general congressional and agency budgeting and policy that keeps money flowing into NIH and NSF or other federal agencies that distribute academic research awards. The bulk is NOT FOR ANY ONE GROUP OF SCHOOLS. That idea is nonsense. Individual schools may themselves lobby for individual contracts, but that is a completely different mechanism and is a clear minority of appropriate R&D money (see UNL getting kicked out out of the AAU despite DOA funding that isn't peer reviewed) Studies are done by these groups, data provided, lobbying for things like increasing indirect rates from federal grants or keeping academic science funding through NIH/NSF a priority in the national budget. These things affect AAU members and non-members equally.

People, think, if the AAU got you more of a slice of research money just by being in it, UNL and Syracuse would still be in it and BU would have never been able to get in invite. Penn State's research, by % share of the total pie, has actually dropped since they joined the CIC while many nonmembers have increased their share. The idea that the AAU or CIC enhances the chance of research application success or the amount of total research funding shows unbelievable ignorance of the process. The schools that get the lion's share of funding do so because of the quality of the stable of researchers at the schools applying for it, not because of any lobbying effort or membership.

And I'll say this for probably the 100th time, the CIC provides not one mechanism to enhance the success of any one grant applicant at any member institution to apply for or secure any research funding. NONE. ZERO. Neither does the AAU or the ACCIAC. No research money is shared between any member of the AAU or CIC. Not a dime, as that would constitute the defrauding of the government and your entire research enterprise would be shut down. Also, inter-institutional collaborations are not born out of affiliation or membership in any group like these. They are formulated at the individual investigator level between colleagues, often typically fostered at professional scientific societies, and are born out of convenience and need, not conference membership.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Moontan]

I suspect that single sport, associate, membership will not get an institution access to the CIC.

The ACC is a better fit... not sure if the conference would be game. The conference tourney would be an extra boost to their RPI.

 

[Toga]

My visceral reaction to this idea? No.

 

[omniorange]

Web rhetoric aside, the main purpose of the CIC is to lobby for federal research funds. The CIC wants to add states because they represent more senators and congressmen. (Nebraska over Missouri can only be explained by football).

In Maryland, College Park is a distant second fiddle to JHU in terms of getting federal research funding. I don't know if JHU is really threatened by UMD membership in the CIC, but if they are, joining the CIC isn't going to help them.

Lobbying is the AAU's main function.

The function of the CIC is to share technology resources, library resources, study abroad, negotiating better prices for common purchases and creative licenses, and creating programs for faculty development.

http://www.cic.net/news-and-publications/multimedia/videos/cic-video-overview

Another function is recognize research trends and to develop or change graduate programs to meet these changing needs.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Moontan]

Lobbying is the AAU's main function.

The function of the CIC is to share technology resources, library resources, study abroad, negotiating better prices for common purchases and creative licenses, and creating programs for faculty development.

JHU is "The Mayo Clinic" of university medical programs. Do they really need this?

If so, I could see them trying to leverage their way in.

If not, then other conferences are better options.

 

[riskylogic]

There is no direct specific funding that comes with being a member of the CIC.

And I'll say this for probably the 100th time, the CIC provides not one mechanism to enhance the success of any one grant applicant at any member institution to apply for or secure any research funding. NONE. ZERO. Neither does the AAU or the ACCIAC.

^^^^snipped

Sure, but in general, what research activities will be funded? Different universities have different strengths, and how money gets doled out at the macro level can greatly influence which groups of peers and which institutions get funded.

Another function is recognize research trends and to develop or change graduate programs to meet these changing needs.

Research trends = Funding trends

 

[Toga]

Frozen Tundra v Sawgrass

 

[Moontan]

JHU could join the Atlantic Sun (if they'd let them in), win the tourney nearly every year, while continuing to play the blue-bloods. Yup, games in VA, NC, SC, GA & FL... but they'd be the top dog.

 

[texasorange]

My gut reaction is to say no, but can they ever elevate their other programs or is this a one sport thing

 

[JeremyCuse]

Probably the Big 10 if anyone. I would be shocked if it was the ACC, theres no real benefit to brining in JHU for the ACC.