The New Guys | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

The New Guys

rrlbees said:
oh oh
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Year after year, in our analyses, we make the same mistake. We assume each character will be the same in the current chapter as he was in the last. Joe appears to be an intelligent young man. The coaches are obviously good at what they do. He should be better prepared to handle a defense that starts by stopping his forward progress.
We're all promoting Buddy's evolution into a 45% 3-point shooter. Why should Buddy evolve, but not Joe? With three other shooters on the floor, why shouldn't Joe be able to take better shots? His driving should be better. His handle should be better. Do you think he'll stay an 80% free throw shooter? Do you think he's still going to get stuffed every time he puts up a shot at the basket? Do you think the staff is going to let him?
Kadary's a loss, but the decision to bring in a pure, point guard with two years of college experience should make up for what Kadary actually produced (not what he could produce as a Sophomore): 6ppg, 3apg and 33.3 3 pt %. And that was averaging 21 minutes a game.
 
General - great write up. Thx. I found your thoughts on JimJr vs Cole to be different than what I had seen. I saw a pretty athletic 6'9" player in Cole and a slightly slower, more deliberate JimJr.

You mention Cole playing center. I hadn't considered that, but had thought of JimJr there (it had been mentioned how he might be a fit for the vacated Marek role). Do you think the offensive center would be Cole over JimJr?
 
LAOrange said:
Year after year, in our analyses, we make the same mistake. We assume each character will be the same in the current chapter as he was in the last. Joe appears to be an intelligent young man. The coaches are obviously good at what they do. He should be better prepared to handle a defense that starts by stopping his forward progress.
We're all promoting Buddy's evolution into a 45% 3-point shooter. Why should Buddy evolve, but not Joe? With three other shooters on the floor, why shouldn't Joe be able to take better shots? His driving should be better. His handle should be better. Do you think he'll stay an 80% free throw shooter? Do you think he's still going to get stuffed every time he puts up a shot at the basket? Do you think the staff is going to let him?
Kadary's a loss, but the decision to bring in a pure, point guard with two years of college experience should make up for what Kadary actually produced (not what he could produce as a Sophomore): 6ppg, 3apg and 33.3 3 pt %. And that was averaging 21 minutes a game.
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Girard probably knew better than anyone that Richmond was breathing down his neck. I’m sure he was pressing. I don’t think he’ll feel the same pressure with his friend and former teammate backing him up.
 
LAOrange said:
Year after year, in our analyses, we make the same mistake. We assume each character will be the same in the current chapter as he was in the last. Joe appears to be an intelligent young man. The coaches are obviously good at what they do. He should be better prepared to handle a defense that starts by stopping his forward progress.
We're all promoting Buddy's evolution into a 45% 3-point shooter. Why should Buddy evolve, but not Joe? With three other shooters on the floor, why shouldn't Joe be able to take better shots? His driving should be better. His handle should be better. Do you think he'll stay an 80% free throw shooter? Do you think he's still going to get stuffed every time he puts up a shot at the basket? Do you think the staff is going to let him?
Kadary's a loss, but the decision to bring in a pure, point guard with two years of college experience should make up for what Kadary actually produced (not what he could produce as a Sophomore): 6ppg, 3apg and 33.3 3 pt %. And that was averaging 21 minutes a game.
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Eh... I don't know, man. Does Joe project as the kind of player that makes strides? Covid year making things weird and all, the reality is, Joe seemed like pretty much the same player as a sophomore that he was as a freshman. In some ways he performed worse, in other things he made some improvement but not stuff that really jumped out. He struggled with the same things he did as a freshman, still took some really dumb shots, etc. I think he can improve but I don't know if he's making huge jumps or not.

Now in fairness to him, he far overexceeded expectations as a freshman, so his starting was a lot higher than most and he deserves a lot of credit. His improvements from here might be around the edges though. Get his fitness figured out so he can be quicker, be smarter about shots he takes, things like that.
 
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OttoinGrotto said:
Eh... I don't know, man. Does Joe project as the kind of player that makes strides? Covid year making things weird and all, the reality is, Joe seemed like pretty much the same player as a sophomore that he was as a freshman. In some ways we performed worse, in other things he made some improvement but not stuff that really jumped out. He struggled with the same things he did as a freshman, still took some really dumb shots, etc. I think he can improve but I don't know if he's making huge jumps or not.

Now in fairness to him, he far overexceeded expectations as a freshman, so his starting was a lot higher than most and he deserves a lot of credit. His improvements from here might be around the edges though. Get his fitness figured out so he can be quicker, be smarter about shots he takes, things like that.
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I thought he regressed last year, although he played well during the postseason.
 
OttoinGrotto said:
Eh... I don't know, man. Does Joe project as the kind of player that makes strides? Covid year making things weird and all, the reality is, Joe seemed like pretty much the same player as a sophomore that he was as a freshman. In some ways we performed worse, in other things he made some improvement but not stuff that really jumped out. He struggled with the same things he did as a freshman, still took some really dumb shots, etc. I think he can improve but I don't know if he's making huge jumps or not.

Now in fairness to him, he far overexceeded expectations as a freshman, so his starting was a lot higher than most and he deserves a lot of credit. His improvements from here might be around the edges though. Get his fitness figured out so he can be quicker, be smarter about shots he takes, things like that.
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Good post - tend to agree.

Joe exceeded my expectations as a ball-handler / passer in his first season. But I think it's important to note that his handle is more about him protecting the ball and not turning it over, not necessarily being able to attack off the dribble, especially against tight on-the-ball pressure. Now, there are some guys he looks to drive on [such as Beverly from NC State], but he hasn't demonstrated the ability to do that against bigger, stronger, more athletic defenders with any consistent regularity.

Now, could he improve in this dimension? Sure. But I think he's somewhat capped based upon his own athleticism and speed, in that regard.

I think the improvements you note -- better shot selection, etc. -- is what is more realistic to expect than him suddenly turning into a more effective lead guard.
 
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Sgt Cuse said:
General - great write up. Thx. I found your thoughts on JimJr vs Cole to be different than what I had seen. I saw a pretty athletic 6'9" player in Cole and a slightly slower, more deliberate JimJr.

You mention Cole playing center. I hadn't considered that, but had thought of JimJr there (it had been mentioned how he might be a fit for the vacated Marek role). Do you think the offensive center would be Cole over JimJr?
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I don't have much of an opinion on this myself. They are similar size guys and neither one is going to be a shot blocker.

What I'll say is I saw Swider guard the opposing team's center for Villanova a lot, probably every game I watched. I have never seen Jimmy play center for Colgate. Because of that I would guess Swider is the likely center candidate out of the two.
 
General20 said:
I was exposed to covid and now I'm stuck in quarantine with tons of time on my hands. Luckily we've got a lot of new players and I don't know enough about basketball to make judgements about how good someone is from highlight clips. I really need to watch whole games to form an educated opinion. So I went ahead and watched a ton of games. Here are my opinions. Hopefully you get some entertainment out of my boredom.

Benny Williams 6'9 190 (according to his coach) Height/weight always seems to be a guessing game, but he looks all of 6'9 to me so lets go with it.

The best skill he brings to the table is his jump shot. Its as smooth as any I've seen, and he makes shots at as high a percentage as I've ever seen a high school kid make.

The second best skill he brings to the table is his shot blocking. He's tall, he's long, and he jumps out of the gym. He is a top notch rim protector.

The numbers I found for him (understanding that high school numbers are generally very unreliable) are 14ppg 6rpg 3apg 1.5 bpg. You might not think that sounds like much for a 5 star recruit, but you have to understand his situation. He plays for the basketball factory IMG. Not on their regular varsity team. He plays on their post grad team, which is a bunch of college age kids with college talent. They go around playing other basketball factories and they DEMOLISH them. I watched 7 of their games and no team was within 20 of them by half time. In all 7 games the coach removed all the starters at half time, and played back ups the rest of the way. The point here is, those numbers are being put up in only 13 or 14 minutes of playing time ... I'll let you extrapolate what his per 40 numbers might be. I saved the best stat for last because its the hardest to swallow. According to the site I found, he's shooting 70% from the field and 50% from 3. I know, those are video game numbers. Is it accurate? Maybe and maybe not. I can tell you from the 7 games I watched (which were all blowouts against inferior competition), his shooting numbers seemed right around there. Maybe even better. The kid hardly misses. He's not a huge part of the offense, mind you (nobody dominates the ball for them). He hangs out near the 3 point line and waits for someone to feed him. When they do he usually takes and makes a 3. Sometimes he drives to the basket and finishes. I saw maybe three Michel Jordan-esk turn around jumpers. Not much of a sample size to be sure, but he made them all, and if that is any kind of a reliable weapon, there isn't a college defender capable of bothering him when he takes it.

Lets talk about weaknesses now. The only one is his youth. He's got NBA size, NBA skill, NBA athleticism. Barring injury, he's going to be playing in the NBA the minute he puts on about 20 more pounds of muscle. The only questions are, is he going to be a good NBA player or a mediocre NBA player, and how long is it going to take him to get there? The faster college game affects all freshmen differently. If Benny struggles he won't be the first five star to do so. But, I think the odds are pretty good that he comes in and gives us great shooting while also contributing ball handling and passing, with the defense and rebounding that come around once he learns the zone There really isn't anything he can't do, but of all his attributes I'm probably most excited about his shot blocking. He and Edwards together have the potential to turn back a lot of shots ... pair them with a 6'8 or 6'9 'small' forward, and our zone will look intimidating.

Cole Swider 6'9 225

Best skill he brings to the table, a sweet jump shot.
Second best skill he brings to the table, a very solid post up game.

Cole averages about 20 mpg and 6ppg on a very talented Villanova team that was a top 10 team until their point guard got hurt, and even then made the sweet 16 and gave Baylor their toughest game of the tournament. From what I can see Cole is a very good player that doesn't fit into Villanova's style very will, but still plays just below starters minutes because he's too good to sit. On D, Nova switches on every screen. They want guards tough enough to cover big guys, and big guys quick enough to cover guards. They don't want to have any mismatches when they switch. Unfortunately Cole isn't that kind of guy. When he's matched up against a guard in space its a mismatch. Luckily for us that will never happen playing zone. On offense, Villanova plays mostly 5 out. They run very little motion and do very little screening. They like to have one of their guys beat his man off the dribble and dare the D to leave a player open from 3 to help. It is to Cole's credit that it was rarely his man that left to double team, so he simply didn't get a lot of shots.

In my opinion the best way to use Cole would be to move him around a lot, run pick and pops with him, and run him off screens. Try to get the D to switch into mismatches. Get a guard on him who he can post up, or get a shot blocking center on him so he can take him away from the basket. To me that sounds a lot like how our offense works.

If Cole gets enough minutes, I have very little doubt he will average double figures in scoring. He scores in three ways. Shoot from 3, pump fake one dribble into a mid range pull up, and posting up. He does all three very well. He also can be counted on to make the right pass, and has a solid handle (better than any of our forwards this year).

His weakness is he's not a high flyer, he won't get a ton of blocks, but he's tall, he doesn't mind banging down low, and he goes up for rebounds with two hands and tends to hold on to the balls that come his way. He's going to need to know the zone well to play defense the way we need because he won't be able to make up for mistakes with athleticism, but if he can figure the defense out he will be a very good player.

One other thing of interest to me. I looked at how often Cole played center defensively for Villanova, and the answer is, quite a lot. I'd say about 50% of the time. Could he be a center in a small ball line up for us? He's not going to be the shot blocker Dolezaj was, but he bangs down low better than Dolezaj could, and will probably rebound better. Plus offensively he offers a lot more than Dolezaj ever did because of his ability to pull the opposing center all the way out to the NBA 3 point line. If he does play center it will be like Dolezaj where sometimes he's just not good enough, but the times we can afford to have him there, wow, we would be putting out a great offensive line up.


Symir Torrence 6'3 200

Best skill he brings to the table, speed (both legs and hands)
Second best skill he brings to the table, passing.

Symir began the year as Marquette's starting point guard, and put up good numbers in 2 games before getting banged up, dropping out of the starting line up, and putting up poor offensive stats for the rest of the year. Was he playing hurt? I don't know, but if he was hurt it sure didn't seem like a leg or foot injury, because he really moves quick. Was it possibly a shoulder or elbow injury? Maybe ... his jump shot looked terrible, and he made very few of them despite putting up decent shooting numbers as a freshman.

Marquette has 3 point guards on their team that all play pretty big minutes so a lot of the time Symir was in the game but playing off the ball. This is a terrible way to use a pass first point guard who was struggling with his jump shot, and all the minutes Symir played off the ball were basically zero productivity minutes on offense. When Symir played point he usually made good things happen. Expect Symir to have the ball in his hands 100% of the time with us. On offense he is amazing at getting past his defender and into the lane under control. Remember how Jalen Carey would always blow past his defender, but then be too out of control to make a basketball play when a help defender came? Symir is the opposite of that. He's mastered going just fast enough to keep the defender on his back hip, but not so fast that he can't stop or switch direction when needed. Symir is okay at finishing in traffic, but he's better at drawing help and finding the open man. He's the definition of a pass first point guard. On D, Symir has quick feet and quick hands. He's good at using his length to grab steals when he's out on an island defensively, which I think translates well to playing in our zone. He's also pretty tall for a point guard, and looks pretty long too. I think he will excel in our zone, and also make our press better, not many people are good at both those things, he's one of the few.

I can see why the coaching staff signed Symir quickly. He wants to play for us, he seems like a good kid, and he brings a ton of skills to the table that we need. This feels like a low risk move. If you get excited by lots of points and superstar players, Symir won't thrill you. But if you think Syracuse needs more speed and athleticism, if you want Syracuse to have an excellent defensive option at the top of the zone, and if you want a passer who can help our shooters perform even better, Symir is your guy. Also, for what its worth, I saw a couple games where Marquette was getting pressed, and he handled that nicely too.

Jimmy Boeheim 6'8 215

I wasn't able to find any full Cornell games, so for this one you are going to have to live with my memory of seeing him play in the past rather than recent observations, but I have seen him play 3 or 4 times and I do have a few thoughts.

Best skill he brings to the table, creative finishing around the hoop.
Second best skill he brings to the table, passing.

When people talk about Jimmy, they seem to talk about him as a jump shooter. I get it, he's an ivy league white guy, and his brother is maybe the best shooter in the country. But the truth is Jimmy is far more of a Quincy Guerrier type than he is a Buddy Boeheim type. Both Quincy and Jimmy can hit the 3, but its a small portion of their game. Their bread is buttered slashing to the basket, and posting up. Quincy is more athletic than Jimmy ... but Jimmy is just better at those skills right now. He's got a better handle and he's great at finishing around the basket.

You can go to another post in the Jimmy Boeheim thread and see highlights of a game he scored 25 against Coppin State. If you fast forward that video to the 50 second mark you'll see 4 straight plays where Jimmy drives to the hoop. On each occasion a double team comes immediately, showing that the Coppin State coach saw his driving ability as a major threat. And on each play Jimmy scores despite the double team. Against ACC competition Jimmy won't be able to take it to the basket against double teams and still score, but he won't need to because he's never going to see a double team with shooters like Girard, Buddy, Williams, and Swider around him. Even ACC athletes will have trouble stopping him one on one because he has a great handle and a WIDE variety of methods to get his shot off. What you don't see much of in that Coppin State highlight is Jimmy's post up game. Its top notch, and considering he's going to have lots of time to make moves without needing to worry about help defenders, I think it will be successful here.

The other big thing Jimmy brings to the table is passing. He should replace all the ball handling and passing we lose in Dolezaj. You know that play we ran very successfully the last few years where Hughes, Griffin, or Braswell make a back cut and gets an easy lay up after Dolezaj delivers the ball to them perfectly? Well Cornell runs that play about a hundred times a game. Jimmy absolutely has that pass in his arsenal.

His weakness are a lot like Swiders. He's not a high jumper or a shot blocker. I do think Jimmy is quicker laterally than Cole.

As a whole

When I look at this group I see a lot of basketball skill. A lot of passing, dribbling and shooting. Also a lot of size. I expect Williams and Swider to be 3 point shooters who can go inside from time to time, and I expect Jimmy to give us points in the paint and occasionally shoot a 3. They all seem to have a role to play here.
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Great Detail and updates on each of them. I am a little concerned with our athleticism to be honest especially if Q is gone.
 
The amount of time Symir plays will depend upon matchups to a great degree. Just like this year, Joe will play tons early in the year when he is matched up against slower smaller guards. I think Symir, like Kadary, will get more run later in the year against quick, taller, more athletic guards.
 
RF2044 said:
Good post - tend to agree.

Joe exceeded my expectations as a ball-handler / passer in his first season. But I think it's important to note that his handle is more about him protecting the ball and not turning it over, not necessarily being able to attack off the dribble, especially against tight on-the-ball pressure. Now, there are some guys he looks to drive on [such as Beverly from NC State], but he hasn't demonstrated the ability to do that against bigger, stronger, more athletic defenders with any consistent regularity.

Now, could he improve in this dimension? Sure. But I think he's somewhat capped based upon his own athleticism and speed, in that regard.

I think the improvements you note -- better shot selection, etc. -- is what is more realistic to expect than him suddenly turning into a more effective lead guard.
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Three areas I think Joe needs to and can improve is how he attacks his defender. Neither of these are based on athleticism.

1- Joe needs to speed things up. The moment the defender looks to press him he needs to blow by him even if he has to bring it back out. You don't have to be an elite athlete to get past your man. Joe isn't Jalen Carey out there but he is still fast enough to use a hesitation dribble and make a quick move. I say this as a short guy who was fast always playing against taller better athletes. Just have to find a move or two you can master and go for it. We saw him do this his freshman year at times. I do think CoVid slowed this down. That said he needs to make a habit of this because it will be there as teams will defend the outside shot on him. This is where he can make a play and honestly he is more comfortable on the move than he is stationary unless he is shooting.

2- Face his man up. Joe and in fairness too many guards are too quick to go into protect the ball mode as a ballhandler. This allows the defender to crowd you and force the ball a certain direction. It also means you will require a screen or two every trip to even get room. Joe needs to bring it up and face his man and force the defender to guard him in either direction. This is something another smaller guard in GMac did extremely well. He used a crossover to get space and at times a hesitation dribble too.

3- Joe needs to add the floater back into his arsenal at this level. He is capable and had that in HS. It's the appropriate pairing with growth in the first two areas.

He is still going to run into great defenders who can take things away but right now he is failing to do things that are not athleticism dependent. You then add Symir to the mix whose speed allows him to do both 1/2 well and you get a much more complete offering at PG.

This past year was supposed to be the year Joe had realized College Basketball is quite a bit more difficult than Glen Falls and grown as a player. Between CoVid and even his early success that didn't happen. He seems like a motivated kid who will put in the work to max out his own game. I think he can but this next year is really the telltale.
 
If Joe exhibits dazzling PG skills next year, I'll be surprised.
Expect serviceable PG at best, based mainly Joe's physical limitations and that he's better at looking for his own shot than opening up opportunities for teammates.
Joe as backup SG/PG 20-25MPG, going all-out and hitting 3's is his best role IMO.
Joe may improve as a driver, but I'd go with AutoPilot.
Regardless, hope Joe exceeds my expectations. Know he'll do his best in whatever role.
 
Joe is a quality point guard, he's just not the slow down type. At this point I expect him to look for the quick shot in the lane first, and then assist if it's not there. No reason he cant dribble back outside once in a while. His left offhand could use a bit of work still but its still slightly above average for a guard. I look forward to seeing one of our bigs passing over the defense though, and hope Joe keeps working in the corners.
 
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Terrific write up thanks for sharing! The staff definitely added some needed skillsets to the roster. Next year will be interesting with the tough nonconference schedule. Hopefully the team does well there to build the resume and grab a decent seed for March
 
bballbeadle said:
Ah, but you still have not said where this is . . . .

The board is having a little fun with you because I am female. The mistake is easy to make. I am one of only 5 women who post on this board (that I know about).
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Onondaga Lake, right?
 
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