The official starting lineup thread

[Cusefan0307]

Your are framing your question so any answer that is not in line with your expectation sounds insane. A different framing would include does starting even matter as well as other factors. JB has said his starters are the players who get the most PT on several occasions.

The way you are framing this question is like you want to have a debate about who are the best players. As I've said previously starting Roberson over Lydon may happen not because Roberson is a better than Lydon. But maybe starting is more significant to Roberson than it is for Lydon. Keeping players happy is important. Players are not robots. We need to try to keep players happy where is makes sense or doesn't cause a negative side effect. I don't think Lydon cares if he starts. Lydon coming in off the bench will most likely not make any difference with his NBA prospects. You could argue coming in fresh will allow him to do better.

I understand everyone elses point, but I think it's stupid.

Is Duke going to bring Grayson Allen off the bench so Luke Kennard can start?
Is UVA going to bring Perrantes off the bench so Kyle Guy can start?
Is UNC going to bring Justin Jackson off the bench so Kennedy Meeks can start?

I mean I think it's absurd. We are overthinking this cause Boeheim has had great 6th men before, and we think we should just pigeon hole our best players into 6th men if we have other good players.

 

[RF2044]

I understand everyone elses point, but I think it's stupid.

Is Duke going to bring Grayson Allen off the bench so Luke Kennard can start?
Is UVA going to bring Perrantes off the bench so Kyle Guy can start?
Is UNC going to bring Justin Jackson off the bench so Kennedy Meeks can start?

I mean I think it's absurd. We are overthinking this cause Boeheim has had great 6th men before, and we think we should just pigeon hole our best players into 6th men if we have other good players.

Well, you're selling Roberson -- one of the top rebounders in college basketball -- a little short. He is NOT the scorer Lydon is, but he brings a trendously valuable skill to the table.

During our run last postseason, many posters suggested he might be the team's MIP [not the MVP, but most important]. We are traditionally a poor rebounding team, and Roberson is a rare double-digit caliber rebounder. He's going to play a LOT.

It's not like people are advocating sitting Lydon to start freshman year Rak. We're talking about not sitting another guy who has been very important to team success.

Frankly, I think the attempts to shoehorn Lydon into the starting 3 position are stranger than suggesting he'd come off of the bench. And I acknowledge that the former MIGHT happen at times, but probably not at the beginning of games.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Well, you're selling Roberson -- one of the top rebounders in college basketball -- a little short. He is NOT the scorer Lydon is, but he brings a trendously valuable skill to the table.

During our run last postseason, many posters suggested he might be the team's MIP [not the MVP, but most important]. We are traditionally a poor rebounding team, and Roberson is a rare double-digit caliber rebounder. He's going to play a LOT.


It's not like people are advocating sitting Lydon to start freshman year Rak.

I'm not selling Roberson, I think he should start too.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not selling Roberson, I think he should start too.

Then where?

Do you think Battle sits? JB as much as suggested in yesterday's articles that the two guys we have to run the point are going to get the bulk of minutes there. That shifts Battle out of the starting 1 spot that so many had him slotted into, which made "room" for Lydon at 3. So one of either White, Battle, or Lydon probably don't start.

The other two go in the starting lineup.


EDIT--this would be a lot easier if Roberson were just a little bit bigger, and could man the center position...

 

[Dave85]

I understand everyone elses point, but I think it's stupid.

Is Duke going to bring Grayson Allen off the bench so Luke Kennard can start?
Is UVA going to bring Perrantes off the bench so Kyle Guy can start?
Is UNC going to bring Justin Jackson off the bench so Kennedy Meeks can start?

I mean I think it's absurd. We are overthinking this cause Boeheim has had great 6th men before, and we think we should just pigeon hole our best players into 6th men if we have other good players.

I am trying to see your point of view. But it's not like Lydon is going to play a full 40 minutes either.

I think both Gillon, White, and Battle are expecting to start. Since starters are not going to play a full 40 minutes how much does it matter who starts. Are you suggesting who we start will determine if we win?

btw, who would be your starters?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Then where?

Do you think Battle sits? JB as much as suggested in yesterday's articles that the two guys we have to run the point are going to get the bulk of minutes there. So one of either White, Battle, or Lydon probably don't start.

The other two go in the starting lineup.

Maybe, maybe not. Cuseman4 is pretty in touch with the program and said the coaches like the idea of Battle at the 1, with White, Lydon, Robey, and Chukwu... not guaranteed to start, but as a lineup to close against team that don't press.

I made my projections as:

Gillon
White
Lydon
Roberson
DC.

I'm just honestly flaberghasted that so many people are basically guaranteeing Lydon comes off the bench and yes I know I'm repeating myself, but I think all you do are reinforcing his biggest weakness, which is to defer to others. Hopefully this is the last post I make on this, but I doubt it is because I keep getting sucked in to the argument.

 

[RF2044]

I actually have a similar reaction when I see the starting lineup you're proposing -- that there is no way that Battle doesn't start at the 2. In fact, I will be flat out stunned if he doesn't start every game, and challenge to be the team's top scorer, and at worst somewhere in the top 2-3.

Here's the elephant in the room -- we have 7 guys who you could legitimately make a case for belonging in the starting lineup. Not all of them are going to start. And of those 7, the bottom two guys on that list in terms of raw talent and scoring are Coleman / Chukwu.

Problem is, one of them is virtually guaranteed to occupy a starting spot, and the other guy is probably going to play at least 15 mpg, too.

In terms of raw talent, our best 5 are probably:

Gillon
Battle
White
Lydon
Roberson

We might even actually see that lineup at times. But there's no starting center there, and the two guys who are centers on the team both bring something to the table [Coleman's bulk / improving ability to score inside and volume rebound, and Chukwu's defensive presence to anchor the press and negate attempts in the zone] that necessitates that they have to play in some capacity.

I love Lydon--I think he is a stud, and possibly the best player on the team [if Battle isn't]. I also think that he will be successful in whatever role we cast him in. I think he could start at 3 if we have a backcourt that includes a legit PG along with Battle. But I think that a White 2 / Lydon 3 combo would be too ball handling and passing limited, no matter who plays the 1. Especially with the number of teams who emphasize pressure defense.

Luckily, Boeheim has lots of options. I think Lydon will ultimately see lots of time at center again, even though that's not where some expect to see him this year.

 

[jordoo]

I understand you do not want Lydon on the bench to start games.

You inquired almost in disbelief how anyone could think differently. I have tried to explain. I would rather see JB substitute liberally and use this depth than if Lydon starts or not.

My disbelief was in reference to you post about a possible short rotation and JB not having 8 guys he can count on which completely contradicts his own statements in the article that Donna wrote yesterday.

If you do not start Lydon then you are basically setting him up to play 32min or less since he won't start either half. Or you are pulling a Grad transfer, 5th year senior or a senior with the super quick hook every half if you want to play Lydon more than that. I don't know for sure what the ideal starting line up is and the ideal combination of bench players is. One thing I do know is that Lydon is one of our very best players and can play all 3 front court positions if needed so its pretty hard for me to imagine him not starting.

We can agree to disagree though and it seems I'm in the minority.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I actually have a similar reaction when I see the starting lineup you're proposing -- that there is no way that Battle doesn't start at the 2. In fact, I will be flat out stunned if he doesn't start every game, and end up as the team's top scorer or if not somewhere in the top 2-3.

Here's the elephant in the room -- we have 7 guys who you could legitimately make a case for belonging in the starting lineup. Not all of them are going to start. And of those 7, the bottom two guys on that list in terms of raw talent and scoring are Coleman / Chukwu.

Problem is, one of them is virtually guaranteed to occupy a starting spot, and the other guy is probably going to play at least 15 mpg, too.

In terms of raw talent, our best 5 are probably:

Gillon
Battle
White
Lydon
Roberson

We might even actually see that lineup at times. But there's no starting center there, and the two guys who are centers on the team both bring something to the table [Coleman's bulk / improving ability to score inside and volume rebound, and Chukwu's defensive presence to anchor the press and negate attempts in the zone] that necessitates that they have to play in some capacity.

I love Lydon--I think he is a stud, and possibly the best player on the team [if Battle isn't]. I also think that he will be successful in whatever role we cast him in. I think he could start at 3 if we have a backcourt that includes a legit PG along with Battle. But I don't think that a White 2 / Lydon 3 combo is optimized, no matter who plays the 1.

Luckily, Boeheim has lots of options. I think Lydon will ultimately see lots of time at center again, even though that's not where some expect to see him this year.

I love Battle and think he's a great player, but how many times do we have great guards come here and despite how talented they are they are not our most efficient players? (MCW/Dion/Malachi)

Battle could end up being our leading scorer, but I'll be shocked if he shoots over 42-43% overall. I think the same with Gillon as well. Even our guys who are pros that leave early that are guards do not shoot the ball efficiently, and that's why I think Battle or Gillon would be perfect as the aggressive 6th man. Anyway were all on the same(if different side) here.

 

[Dave85]

I'm just honestly flaberghasted that so many people are basically guaranteeing Lydon comes off the bench and yes I know I'm repeating myself, but I think all you do are reinforcing his biggest weakness, which is to defer to others. Hopefully this is the last post I make on this, but I doubt it is because I keep getting sucked in to the argument.

This is a great discussion. Please continue to makes posts.

Here's my logic why Lydon comes off the bench. Assume these are your starters: Gillon, Battle, White, Roberson, Coleman. If Gillon makes a mistake substitute him with Howard. If Battle makes a mistake bring in Lydon. Move White to the 2 spot. Lydon plays the 3 or 4 with Roberson. If you do it the other way and bring Battle off the bench. Then if he makes a mistake in a minute or two then you have to substitute him with someone who was just playing. JB has done this with Freshmen who have started in the past. Actually, I've seen him take out any of the starters who up in the first few minutes many times.

Plus I like the idea of tiring out the other teams starters and then bringing in one of you best offensive players. A fresh player appears to have more spark coming in after five minutes.

We may see Howard start over Gillon. According to Francis in his last pod, Howard was owning Gillon during MC pickup games.

I could see this being the starters: Howard, White, Lydon, Roberson, Coleman

It's hard to think Battle doesn't start. This is not easy.

 

[Dave85]

I would put out for pay-per-view to see these lineups play:

Orange Crush: Howard, White, Moyer, Roberson, Coleman

Orange Juice: Gillon, Battle, Lydon, Thompson, Chukwu

 

[newmexicuse]

My guess on starting lineup:

I think Coleman and Roberson start out of respect for their senior status. In Coleman's case he gives way early to Chukwu who will get most of the minutes at the 5 spot.

I think Lydon starts because he is likely to be our best player.

I think Battle and White start because I think they were promised (or implied) starting roles. Also because that would give us a huge and intimidating zone out of the gate.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

My guess on starting lineup:

I think Coleman and Roberson start out of respect for their senior status. In Coleman's case he gives way early to Chukwu who will get most of the minutes at the 5 spot.

I think Lydon starts because he is likely to be our best player.

I think Battle and White start because I think they were promised (or implied) starting roles. Also because that would give us a huge and intimidating zone out of the gate.

Coleman will be better than PC this year. Look for the former HS AA to finally be healthy enough to show why he was so highly regarded.

 

[knicks07]

I'm not sure who the actual starters will be. As above, I believe Lydon will be our best player. With college basketball trending small and JB's propensity to close his rotations, I see it shaking out like this (and this is with an 8 man rotation):

Coleman/Chukwu...some combination of 34 minutes game
Roberson ...26 minutes per game
Lydon...32
White/Battle/Gillon...26-30...a couple more or less depending on given game
Howard....24

Moyer will probably red-shirt and Thompson wont play expect scrub time; if injury, JB will just close rotation more.
I am excited about the multiple possibilities of this team with the core 8 and the position depth even though 9 players. This team is undersold now, but that will not last long.

 

[Jake]

????
White
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman

I think PG will be a fierce competition and we could see multiple starters through the year.

 

[kcsu]

Howard starts as Gil can sub for both the 1 and 2

 

[Shark58]

Gillon
Battle
White
Roberson
Coleman

 

[NYCorange]

Howard starts as Gil can sub for both the 1 and 2

But that works the other way too, Gillon starts and if Howard comes in, Gillon slides to the 2.

 

[Cusefan0307]

????
White
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman

I think PG will be a fierce competition and we could see multiple starters through the year.

Really? That would be a first. JB isn't one to mess with the lineup if he's winning games.

 

[Toronto Cuse]

Starting 5
Battle
White
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman

Finishing 5
Gillon
Battle
White
Lydon
Roberson

Who I would start
Battle
White
Lydon
Roberson
Chukwu

 

[RF2044]

I'm hearing from more than one source that Battle isn't ready to handle the point.

Probably not going to man that role long term, if at all.

 

[Oráiste]

I look at it three ways:

starting lineup if not in November then probably by January
Howard (natural point guard, best passer, longest in the system, prototypical size for SU guard)
White (I know, I know - he's really a 3, but there is not much difference between a 2 & a 3 on offense and he should be able to man the top of the zone on D)
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman
Battle is 6th man

closing lineup in tight games
Howard
Battle
White
Roberson
Lydon

Minutes
Guards: Howard 28, Battle 28, White 14, Gillon 10
Forwards: Lydon 34, Roberson 28, White 18 (maybe these adjust downward & Battle gets some minutes here as well)
Centers: Coleman 25, Chukwu 15, Lydon *
(Lydon won't play enough minutes at C to average anything over the course of 35-40 games, but based on last year, I think he will play the position late in close games when we need our best offensive team on the floor)

I am not as high on Gillon as many others seem to be. If anything, I think his minutes decrease as we face tougher competition.

 

[721Comstock]

I look at it three ways:

starting lineup if not in November then probably by January
Howard (natural point guard, best passer, longest in the system, prototypical size for SU guard)
White (I know, I know - he's really a 3, but there is not much difference between a 2 & a 3 on offense and he should be able to man the top of the zone on D)
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman
Battle is 6th man

closing lineup in tight games
Howard
Battle
White
Roberson
Lydon

Minutes
Guards: Howard 28, Battle 28, White 14, Gillon 10
Forwards: Lydon 34, Roberson 28, White 18 (maybe these adjust downward & Battle gets some minutes here as well)
Centers: Coleman 25, Chukwu 15, Lydon *
(Lydon won't play enough minutes at C to average anything over the course of 35-40 games, but based on last year, I think he will play the position late in close games when we need our best offensive team on the floor)

I am not as high on Gillon as many others seem to be. If anything, I think his minutes decrease as we face tougher competition.

So, the guy who played sparingly for one season, is going to get more than 2x the minutes of a 5th year Grad student, who has played major minutes in his past 3 seasons? Makes sense. :noidea:

Not to mention - last we saw, Frankie couldn't hit water falling out of a boat.
From anywhere: FT line, floor, 3pt line.
Meanwhile, Gillon is an excellent shooter - especially FT's.
You know - the kind of shots you need to hit to win in end-game situations.

I am not as high on Howard as many others seem to be. If anything, I think his minutes decrease as we face tougher competition.
FIFY.

 

[RF2044]

I look at it three ways:

starting lineup if not in November then probably by January
Howard (natural point guard, best passer, longest in the system, prototypical size for SU guard)
White (I know, I know - he's really a 3, but there is not much difference between a 2 & a 3 on offense and he should be able to man the top of the zone on D)
Lydon
Roberson
Coleman
Battle is 6th man

closing lineup in tight games
Howard
Battle
White
Roberson
Lydon

Minutes
Guards: Howard 28, Battle 28, White 14, Gillon 10
Forwards: Lydon 34, Roberson 28, White 18 (maybe these adjust downward & Battle gets some minutes here as well)
Centers: Coleman 25, Chukwu 15, Lydon *
(Lydon won't play enough minutes at C to average anything over the course of 35-40 games, but based on last year, I think he will play the position late in close games when we need our best offensive team on the floor)

I am not as high on Gillon as many others seem to be. If anything, I think his minutes decrease as we face tougher competition.

Well thought out first post--welcome aboard!

But I agree with 721's post above -- there is no way in heck that Gillon plays only 10 minutes per game. He's much, much better than that.

 

[Oráiste]

So, the guy who played sparingly for one season, is going to get more than 2x the minutes of a 5th year Grad student, who has played major minutes in his past 3 seasons? Makes sense. :noidea:

Not to mention - last we saw, Frankie couldn't hit water falling out of a boat.
From anywhere: FT line, floor, 3pt line.
Meanwhile, Gillon is an excellent shooter - especially FT's.
You know - the kind of shots you need to hit to win in end-game situations.

I am not as high on Howard as many others seem to be. If anything, I think his minutes decrease as we face tougher competition.
FIFY.

If you look at Gillon's splits, his numbers collapsed vs. top 100 opponents last year. Shot 27% from three vs. 36% vs everyone else. Assist rate was way down, turnover rate way up. He faced only 10 top 100 teams last year, Syracuse faced 18. This does not give me confidence. I understand and am also concerned with Howard's limitations, but what we've seen from him is probably his floor, and what we've seen from Gillon is probably his ceiling.