The Syracuse Center Graveyard

[orange2win]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

 

[Trueblue25]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

I think it's our offense, or lack there of, not the zone.

 

[MSOrange]

Didn't get drafted but Arinze spent a little time in the NBA and had a solid college career.

 

[AZOrange]

In case you haven't noticed the position has become a "graveyard" across basketball.

 

[urban96]

Christmas

 

[Forza Azzurri]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

Boule, Schayes, Seikaly, Coleman, Ellis. Who are the other 2?

Hill graduated in 97.

Since 1990, McRae, Thomas, Watkins, Onuaku, Melo, Xmas.

I don't think the data is clear at all.

 

[jncuse]

Google

 

[SoBeCuse]

I hope DaJuan also gets a huge send-off. He's been an incredibly hard worker, a great teammate, and a kid with more perseverance than most of us, certainly me.

I've been a little disappointed with the quality of some of the bigs SU has brought in this past decade or so. Even Baye. Love the kid and he was serviceable on defense and a great communicator/quarterback back in the zone, but, man he couldn't catch anything and couldn't do anything offensively. My friends who were basketball junkies and not SU fans would always get a good chuckle whenever he would check into the game. I have basically zero optimism with Chukwu. Pre-injury he was still a disaster out there and he's been in two basketball systems now. Da'Shonte Riley, Chino, Cat Rescuer, etc. Bascially getting nothing out of Coleman his whole career has been disappointing to say the least. I think Diagne would've been pretty good at PF and maybe C in a pinch but he never made it here so he's a bust. I did think Watkins was underappreciated a little. Rak of course was awesome even though he was an undersized C. Onuaku was steady and a gem of a recruit, really. I guess there just have been too many guys who truly were too raw and should've never been recruited at a program like Syracuse, imo.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

If only Thomas Bryant listened to his Mom.

 

[orange2win]

Boule, Schayes, Seikaly, Coleman, Ellis. Who are the other 2?

Hill graduated in 97.

Since 1990, McRae, Thomas, Watkins, Onuaku, Melo, Xmas.

I don't think the data is clear at all.

Bouie (76), Schayes (77), Seikaly (84), Manning (88), Ellis (89), McRae (89), Hill (93), Thomas (96)

Xmas, like Thompson, was a PF. Never played a minute at center in the NBA (filled in at center like Thompson is doing now). Watkins and Onuaku were not drafted.

 

[OrangeTarheel]

Center is a tough position to play and the size requirement seems like it would reduce the pool of potential candidates. I can't think of many great centers anywhere. We have had guys who filled a particular role well but a complete offensive/defensive package? That's basically an all star on any team - it will be rare no matter where you look.

 

[orange2win]

I hope DaJuan also gets a huge send-off. He's been an incredibly hard worker, a great teammate, and a kid with more perseverance than most of us, certainly me.

I've been a little disappointed with the quality of some of the bigs SU has brought in this past decade or so. Even Baye. Love the kid and he was serviceable on defense and a great communicator/quarterback back in the zone, but, man he couldn't catch anything and couldn't do anything offensively. My friends who were basketball junkies and not SU fans would always get a good chuckle whenever he would check into the game. I have basically zero optimitism with Chukwu. Pre-injury he was still a disaster out there and he's been in two basketball systems now. Da'Shonte Riley, Chino, Cat Rescuer, etc. Bascially getting nothing out of Coleman his whole career has been disappointing to say the least. I think Diagne would've been pretty good at PF and maybe C in a pinch but he never made it here so he's a bust. I did think Watkins was underappreciated a little. Rak of course was awesome even though he was an undersized C. Onuaku was steady and a gem of a recruit, really. I guess there just have been too many guys who truly were too raw and should've never been recruited at a program like Syracuse, imo.

Here they are: Celuk (98), McNeil (99), Forth (01), Gorman (02), Watkins (03), Brennan-McBride (06), Onuaku (05), Williams (07), Jackson (07), Riley (09), Kieta (10), Coleman (12), Obokoh (13), Chukwu (16).

There are a lot of busts in there.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Bouie (76), Schayes (77), Seikaly (84), Manning (88), Ellis (89), McRae (89), Hill (93), Thomas (96)

Xmas, like Thompson, was a PF. Never played a minute at center in the NBA (filled in at center like Thompson is doing now). Watkins and Onuaku were not drafted.

Your post said 76-90 and 91-17, not 76-96. and 97-17.

And nobody uses freshman year. Use the year they graduated or the years they played.

Manning transferred after not playing much. He doesn't count.

And, if you don't count DC, then you only have 4 from '76 to '90.

Bottom line, regardless of what year you use, we've had pretty good players at the 5 over the entirety of Boeheim's tenure, regardless of whether we played man or zone.

And TT may turn out to be the best of them all. He is far and away the best we've ever had offensively at the 5 as a freshman.

 

[orange2win]

Forza Azzurri, post: 2099824, member: 1452"]Your post said 76-90 and 91-17, not 76-96. and 97-17.

And nobody uses freshman year. Use the year they graduated or the years they played. As you prefer. They played during the M2M era and the gray interlude before JB switched to totally zone.

Manning transferred after not playing much. He doesn't count. Wrong. Manning was here as long as Fab Melo.

And, if you don't count DC, then you only have 4 from '76 to '90. DC was a PF, although he played nearly a season at center.

Bottom line, regardless of what year you use, we've had pretty good players at the 5 over the entirety of Boeheim's tenure, regardless of whether we played man or zone. Not so. It's 8-1

And TT may turn out to be the best of them all. He is far and away the best we've ever had offensively at the 5 as a freshman. TT is not a center, he's a PF. Check the SU official site roster.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

In case you haven't noticed the position has become a "graveyard" across basketball.

Nah, it's making a comeback in the NBA.

 

[Brooky03]

What's the argument we're having? Is it that we haven't had a bunch of good college Centers in the last 2 decades? Cuz that's bologna. Or is the argument trying to make some weird connection between draft picks and their 'development' in college?

 

[cuseinseattle]

JB's game style does not bode well for center development. While this is certainly a debatable point, what is not open to debate is that during the Zone Era, the center position at SU has become a graveyard.

From 1976 to 1990 when JB played M2M, SU placed 8 centers in the Pros - 7 in the NBA and Otis Hill in the CBA. In the Zone Era, 1991-2017 (nearly twice as long) we sent just one (1) center to the NBA (Fab Melo). Fab was the most recruited center in the nation when he picked SU and while he enjoyed some success here, he performed below expectations.

The data is clear. Our zone is a center killer. Our current acting center position is played by forwards (Thompson and Lydon) and our real centers (Coleman and Chukwu) sit.

I hope Dajuan gets a great send-off on Saturday afternoon.

You forgot about Etan Thomas who had a good NBA career.

 

[billsin01]

Forza Azzurri, post: 2099824, member: 1452"]Your post said 76-90 and 91-17, not 76-96. and 97-17.

And nobody uses freshman year. Use the year they graduated or the years they played. As you prefer. They played during the M2M era and the gray interlude before JB switched to totally zone.

Manning transferred after not playing much. He doesn't count. Wrong. Manning was here as long as Fab Melo.

And, if you don't count DC, then you only have 4 from '76 to '90. DC was a PF, although he played nearly a season at center.

Bottom line, regardless of what year you use, we've had pretty good players at the 5 over the entirety of Boeheim's tenure, regardless of whether we played man or zone. Not so. It's 8-1

And TT may turn out to be the best of them all. He is far and away the best we've ever had offensively at the 5 as a freshman. TT is not a center, he's a PF. Check the SU official site roster.

Your argument is based on semantics if you're not counting Xmas or TT. Or really lydon for that matter. I'm not even sure how you rank some guys particularly since some guys who weren't 'centers' played the position exceptionally well -- Rick Jackson, lydon during the tourney run last year, etc.

JB's also had much more post-season success in the second era you cite, so there's also the question of, 'what does it matter if we're winning?'

If your argument is that we don't do a great job developing offensive bigs and/or getting them the ball im with you. But worrying about how many center we put into the NBA seems misguided and largely irrelevant.

 

[billsin01]

What's the argument we're having? Is it that we haven't had a bunch of good college Centers in the last 2 decades? Cuz that's bologna. Or is the argument trying to make some weird connection between draft picks and their 'development' in college?

Yeah -- the idea that people care about artificial labels (rak isn't a center) or NBA draft picks is kind of weird given out mr goal is to win a bunch of games. College games.

 

[two3zone]

Fab below expectations? May have been the MVP of our arguably our best team ever and won big east defensive player of the year.

 

[orangefog]

Bouie (76), Schayes (77), Seikaly (84), Manning (88), Ellis (89), McRae (89), Hill (93), Thomas (96)

Xmas, like Thompson, was a PF. Never played a minute at center in the NBA (filled in at center like Thompson is doing now). Watkins and Onuaku were not drafted.

Those are their high school graduating classes, you should probably use their college graduating class. And Who cares if they were drafted or not? They played in the NBA. You are contorting facts to fit a false agenda.

 

[Fat tire 13]

I don't get the point either. It's not like we had a David Robinson or Shaq, and blew it. If you look at the list the vast majority aren't sniffing the NBA even if our coaching staff was Wooden, Knight, Smith, etc. On other threads I've argued we've been able to develop centers over the years, and still stand by that belief. Lots of those guys were very raw coming into college, and graduated as a top college players.

 

[AZOrange]

Nah, it's making a comeback in the NBA.

Kind of...it's really a different position player though. The days of 300 pound back to basket behemoths are done.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Bouie (76), Schayes (77), Seikaly (84), Manning (88), Ellis (89), McRae (89), Hill (93), Thomas (96)

Xmas, like Thompson, was a PF. Never played a minute at center in the NBA (filled in at center like Thompson is doing now). Watkins and Onuaku were not drafted.

uhhhh... Have you been watching the Pacers? He's listed as a forward, but Christmas is their backup 5.

 

[oli44]

Bouie (76), Schayes (77), Seikaly (84), Manning (88), Ellis (89), McRae (89), Hill (93), Thomas (96)

Xmas, like Thompson, was a PF. Never played a minute at center in the NBA (filled in at center like Thompson is doing now). Watkins and Onuaku were not drafted.

Not totally dismissing your point but not sure how you can have Otis Hill on your list of Syracuse centers and then with a straight face say Xmas doesn't count because he was really a PF filling in. And Watkins and Onuaku as pros are not much different than Mcrae, Manning or Ellis. Who cares whether they were drafted. I think you can definitely make the point that we have not developed big men in recent years as well as we have in the past but I think you are distorting things just a bit.