There have been thousands of championship games in

[CuseFaninVT]

Big guys playing in the paint are going to be involved in contact constantly. It doesn't mean they are constantly fouling.

There was one I swear he jumped up straight in the air and didn't really contact anyone. And that offensive that was called on him trying to establish position was miserable as well.

 

[longislandcuse]

I would love to see a replay of each of Collins' fouls.

His 4th foul was just the referee being like alright, alright, you've had enough playing time for one night.. foul on Collins for illegal uh, things and such.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

One call here, one call there. It happens. It happened far too much last night, but it happens.

What I found to be criminal was the fact Gonzaga had 3 big men in foul trouble halfway through the second half, including the best player on the court, who was effectively sidelined by the referees for a majority of the game.

That National Championship should've been Few vs Roy. Meeks vs Karnowski. Hicks vs Collins. Jackson vs Williams-Goss. Berry vs Perkins. ...and down the line. Instead we got a war of attrition in which the team who survived the officiating won.

I hope those refs are proud of the fact they stole a Championship Game from a bunch of kids and made it about themselves.

This is exactly right. The matchup was billed as a return to the old days with the battles of actual back to the basket big men, and the refs decided that wasn't going to be allowed.

Maybe they just don't have a clue how to officiate games with big men who don't take 3 point shots anymore.

 

[Jasoncuse]

That blatant missed out of bounds call was as bad as you'll ever see.

 

[realorange]

Big guys playing in the paint are going to be involved in contact constantly. It doesn't mean they are constantly fouling.

^^^^ This!

The number of fouls was outrageous, but the inconsistency was just as bad.

If the Big East had been officiated like this years ago, it would have been at the level of the Horizon League in three years.

 

[orangefog]

I applaud the officials. This was the big stage. They had a chance to be seen, and they took advantage of it. It is about taking advantage of the sliver of exposure available, and these guys knew that all eyes were on this game, so they made themselves a story. Well done jackasses.

 

[SU94]

all of the sports we play in this country. But only one can be the worst called game of all time. Congrats Mike Stephens. I knew you had it in you. Your mates were in your class as well.

I am going to play a bit of a contrarian here, but understand that I too think it was a poorly officiated game. But there WERE a lot of fouls.

Almost every screen that the big men set at the top of the key was illegal. Moving, hips jutting out.

There were 4 separate fouls on 3-point attempts in the first 10 minutes of the game. All looked like legit calls (fouls on the shooter's follow through).

Conjecture alert, ... but I would think that one of Mark Few's directive's before the game was for his Zags to match UNC's physicality down low. That is now UNC won games all year (actually, the last 2 years). That led to a lot of bumping, grinding and clutching. And Gonzaga's Zach Collins only played 14 minutes because of this. Freshman mistakes.

SU grad Adam Kilgore agrees:

Analysis | Referees spoiled the NCAA championship, but they were only doing their job

 

[Cusefan0307]

I am going to play a bit of a contrarian here, but understand that I too think it was a poorly officiated game. But there WERE a lot of fouls.

Almost every screen that the big men set at the top of the key was illegal. Moving, hips jutting out.

There were 4 separate fouls on 3-point attempts in the first 10 minutes of the game. All looked like legit calls (fouls on the shooter's follow through).

Conjecture alert, ... but I would think that one of Mark Few's directive's before the game was for his Zags to match UNC's physicality down low. That is now UNC won games all year (actually, the last 2 years). That led to a lot of bumping, grinding and clutching. And Gonzaga's Zach Collins only played 14 minutes because of this. Freshman mistakes.

SU grad Adam Kilgore agrees:

Analysis | Referees spoiled the NCAA championship, but they were only doing their job

Even if this is correct how does it excuse the OOB and missed foul/OOB 3 point shot call?

 

[orangenirvana]

all of the sports we play in this country. But only one can be the worst called game of all time. Congrats Mike Stephens. I knew you had it in you. Your mates were in your class as well.

The 2012 East Regional Championship was worse. But I'm biased.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I am going to play a bit of a contrarian here, but understand that I too think it was a poorly officiated game. But there WERE a lot of fouls.

Almost every screen that the big men set at the top of the key was illegal. Moving, hips jutting out.

There were 4 separate fouls on 3-point attempts in the first 10 minutes of the game. All looked like legit calls (fouls on the shooter's follow through).

Conjecture alert, ... but I would think that one of Mark Few's directive's before the game was for his Zags to match UNC's physicality down low. That is now UNC won games all year (actually, the last 2 years). That led to a lot of bumping, grinding and clutching. And Gonzaga's Zach Collins only played 14 minutes because of this. Freshman mistakes.

SU grad Adam Kilgore agrees:

Analysis | Referees spoiled the NCAA championship, but they were only doing their job

How would we know if they were legit calls? Seems like we saw very few actual replays other than the tip that wasn't. I'm so tired of these networks cutting to commercial and showing a play that happened 3 minutes ago instead of the one that just happened that is sending us to commercial.

There was one where Berry got fouled and it appeared the guard absolutely missed him but he threw his leg out and fell anyway.

I will say that having Karnosky hedge as hard as he did seemed to work against the Zags. Didn't get there in time to stop the guard, but got in the way of his teammate defending the guard, which definitely led to a grab of an arm on a 3.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I am going to play a bit of a contrarian here, but understand that I too think it was a poorly officiated game. But there WERE a lot of fouls.

Almost every screen that the big men set at the top of the key was illegal. Moving, hips jutting out.

There were 4 separate fouls on 3-point attempts in the first 10 minutes of the game. All looked like legit calls (fouls on the shooter's follow through).

Conjecture alert, ... but I would think that one of Mark Few's directive's before the game was for his Zags to match UNC's physicality down low. That is now UNC won games all year (actually, the last 2 years). That led to a lot of bumping, grinding and clutching. And Gonzaga's Zach Collins only played 14 minutes because of this. Freshman mistakes.

SU grad Adam Kilgore agrees:

Analysis | Referees spoiled the NCAA championship, but they were only doing their job

That article is horsehockey.

 

[longislandcuse]

I am going to play a bit of a contrarian here, but understand that I too think it was a poorly officiated game. But there WERE a lot of fouls.

Almost every screen that the big men set at the top of the key was illegal. Moving, hips jutting out.

There were 4 separate fouls on 3-point attempts in the first 10 minutes of the game. All looked like legit calls (fouls on the shooter's follow through).

Conjecture alert, ... but I would think that one of Mark Few's directive's before the game was for his Zags to match UNC's physicality down low. That is now UNC won games all year (actually, the last 2 years). That led to a lot of bumping, grinding and clutching. And Gonzaga's Zach Collins only played 14 minutes because of this. Freshman mistakes.

SU grad Adam Kilgore agrees:

Analysis | Referees spoiled the NCAA championship, but they were only doing their job

It's CBB in general. I mean they were bad last night, there's no way around it but to even try to defend them means calling to witness the atrocity that is CBB officiating and falling on that sword.

The NBA is 10 times more physical than college yet players aren't sitting half the game in foul trouble.

Perimeter officiating is based on the whims of the crew. Some call everything and others allow teams like Louisville to assault everyone. No consistency.

In the paint is where CBB is a mess. It's a contact sport. People push, shove, pull and elbow. If you watch the NBA, the refs will allow an initial aggressive defense in the post but if you keep pushing, they call it. They don't just blow the whistle immediately when you put your forearm into someone's back for .2 seconds.

On rebounds, every play could be a foul, it's akin to offensive line holding in football. A good officiating crew will let you play and only call egregious contact that directly leads to an advantage. Something CBB refs have yet to grasp which leads to big men being in foul trouble all game.

Oh, and if CBB refs could figure charge/blocking ever, that would also be nice. I know it's not impossible because NBA refs are pretty good at it.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

It's CBB in general. I mean they were bad last night, there's no way around it but to even try to defend them means calling to witness the atrocity that is CBB officiating and falling on that sword.

The NBA is 10 times more physical than college yet players aren't sitting half the game in foul trouble.

Perimeter officiating is based on the whims of the crew. Some call everything and others allow teams like Louisville to assault everyone. No consistency.

In the paint is where CBB is a mess. It's a contact sport. People push, shove, pull and elbow. If you watch the NBA, the refs will allow an initial aggressive defense in the post but if you keep pushing, they call it. They don't just blow the whistle immediately when you put your forearm into someone's back for .2 seconds.

On rebounds, every play could be a foul, it's akin to offensive line holding in football. A good officiating crew will let you play and only call egregious contact that directly leads to an advantage. Something CBB refs have yet to grasp which leads to big men being in foul trouble all game.

Oh, and if CBB refs could figure charge/blocking ever, that would also be nice. I know it's not impossible because NBA refs are pretty good at it.

The fouls on rebounding are the ones that really bother me. Sometimes, a guy is just actually taller than another player, so it's not actually an over the back call.

But let them battle a bit for some of these rebounds, please.

 

[texascpa]

Contact doesn't always mean there is a foul. If no advantage is gained, there is no foul.

With the new freedom of movement rules, most are.

 

[texascpa]

It's CBB in general. I mean they were bad last night, there's no way around it but to even try to defend them means calling to witness the atrocity that is CBB officiating and falling on that sword.

The NBA is 10 times more physical than college yet players aren't sitting half the game in foul trouble.

Perimeter officiating is based on the whims of the crew. Some call everything and others allow teams like Louisville to assault everyone. No consistency.

In the paint is where CBB is a mess. It's a contact sport. People push, shove, pull and elbow. If you watch the NBA, the refs will allow an initial aggressive defense in the post but if you keep pushing, they call it. They don't just blow the whistle immediately when you put your forearm into someone's back for .2 seconds.

On rebounds, every play could be a foul, it's akin to offensive line holding in football. A good officiating crew will let you play and only call egregious contact that directly leads to an advantage. Something CBB refs have yet to grasp which leads to big men being in foul trouble all game.

Oh, and if CBB refs could figure charge/blocking ever, that would also be nice. I know it's not impossible because NBA refs are pretty good at it.

So, we shouldn't have been complaining about Pitt all these years?

 

[Cowtown]

There are a couple things going on. First, regarding the persistent banging in the lane: The football stadiums that are jerry-rigged into basketball arenas are just bullshyte. They provide a completely different backdrop for shooters which throws off the shots. Two things happen off that: a,) more rebounds, and b.) more post entries. Both create a LOT more opportunities for contact because there are at least 6 and sometimes 7 or 8 players in the lane. Shooting percentages were way down last night, because no one could really "find the basket," from the perimeter, and near the basket everyone had two bodies leaning on them. It was freaking God-awful.

The second thing is that players are coached to deny everything. Shot, entry pass, drive, rebound, put-back, outlet, everything. What nobody seems to be able to teach players is how to adjust when there are lots of fouls being called. Like dung beetles, they just keep doing what's been hammered into them every night in practice for however many years. Collins was a perfect example of that. Instead of trying to stay straight up, he kept "dropping his arms on the ball," reaching for the blocked shot. This I blame partly on what I call the NBA mindset, in which the stars get away with all that BS, so they just keep doing it.

Anyway, there's a huge disconnect between the players and the officials. But the first step is to get out of these goddam canyons with a couple of hoops somewhere in the middle. And don't get me started on the unstable footing because of Emmert's treacherous floors. I'd like to punch him right in the face for that.

 

[Cowtown]

The fouls on rebounding are the ones that really bother me. Sometimes, a guy is just actually taller than another player, so it's not actually an over the back call.

But let them battle a bit for some of these rebounds, please.

The "quick whistle" is the real enemy there. Instead of watching the whole play they jump on it right away instead of waiting to see if there's any real disadvantage. And coaches have become conditioned to expect that call and they cry if they don't get it.

 

[Cowtown]

With the new freedom of movement rules, most are.

Rule changes are difficult to administer, even if there's no rule change per se, but rather a new interpretation/application. For years players have been encouraged by coaches and allowed by refs to deny, deny, deny. Bump and run with cutters, stick your elbow into them, trip them, the refs can't call everything. It's gonna take time. Especially when the most skilled players keep leaving early. The NBA doesn't have the problem because the ball is invariably in the hands of highly skilled players with years of experience, surrounded by the more of the same. And it's much easier to develop consistency with 70 refs than 7,000. :noidea:

 

[jordoo]

The fouls on rebounding are the ones that really bother me. Sometimes, a guy is just actually taller than another player, so it's not actually an over the back call.

But let them battle a bit for some of these rebounds, please.

The NCAA refs seem to have no understanding of the term loose ball. When you watch the calls its like they have predetermined that one player has more right to it than the other. When two guys go for a loose ball and bump into each other it doesn't necessarily mean that its a foul on either.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Rule changes are difficult to administer, even if there's no rule change per se, but rather a new interpretation/application. For years players have been encouraged by coaches and allowed by refs to deny, deny, deny. Bump and run with cutters, stick your elbow into them, trip them, the refs can't call everything. It's gonna take time. Especially when the most skilled players keep leaving early. The NBA doesn't have the problem because the ball is invariably in the hands of highly skilled players with years of experience, surrounded by the more of the same. And it's much easier to develop consistency with 70 refs than 7,000. :noidea:

I know most people hate Dan Dakitch, but he had an interesting perspective on this today on Mike and Mike. The refs start the season with their points of emphasis (POE) and the games get called the way the NCAA wants them called based on those new POE. Fine. Players try to react based on the new rules. Then about halfway through the season, even the refs forget about the POE and go back to calling games the way they know how. Players react to this change as well eventually. Then the tourney shows up and the NCAA gathers the refs again and says HEY, DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE POE. And the tournament happens and there isn't enough time for the kids to react in a meaningful way.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

There are a couple things going on. First, regarding the persistent banging in the lane: The football stadiums that are jerry-rigged into basketball arenas are just bullshyte. They provide a completely different backdrop for shooters which throws off the shots. Two things happen off that: a,) more rebounds, and b.) more post entries. Both create a LOT more opportunities for contact because there are at least 6 and sometimes 7 or 8 players in the lane. Shooting percentages were way down last night, because no one could really "find the basket," from the perimeter, and near the basket everyone had two bodies leaning on them. It was freaking God-awful.

The second thing is that players are coached to deny everything. Shot, entry pass, drive, rebound, put-back, outlet, everything. What nobody seems to be able to teach players is how to adjust when there are lots of fouls being called. Like dung beetles, they just keep doing what's been hammered into them every night in practice for however many years. Collins was a perfect example of that. Instead of trying to stay straight up, he kept "dropping his arms on the ball," reaching for the blocked shot. This I blame partly on what I call the NBA mindset, in which the stars get away with all that BS, so they just keep doing it.

Anyway, there's a huge disconnect between the players and the officials. But the first step is to get out of these goddam canyons with a hoop at each end. And don't get me started on the unstable footing because of Emmert's treacherous floors. I'd like to punch him right in the face for that.

He got called for one where he was absolutely straight up and down. Pine trees don't grow that straight. First half. I think it was his second foul.

 

[Cowtown]

He got called for one where he was absolutely straight up and down. Pine trees don't grow that straight. First half. I think it was his second foul.

I wanted to scream when I saw the "illegal screen" fouls that are allowed all year long, and all tournament long, that magically became fouls last night.

 

[Ghost]

With the new freedom of movement rules, most are.

I suppose it just gets confusing. Collins' fourth foul has very little contact. Foul called. The play where Goss-Williams gets hurt, Pinson has two hands on him pushing him out for a good 5 feet out at the three point line.

You can see Few in the background like What???

I have no idea what a foul is from that game. None.

I do know Collins was maybe the most important player in that game. And he was neutralized by the officials.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I wanted to scream when I saw the "illegal screen" fouls that are allowed all year long, and all tournament long, that magically became fouls last night.

The one where the Big Pole threw his hip out was about the only one I thought was an actual foul. Somebody that big could hurt someone.

 

[Cowtown]

I suppose it just gets confusing. Collins' fourth foul has very little contact. Foul called. The play where Goss-Williams gets hurt, Pinson has two hands on him pushing him out for a good 5 feet out at the three point line.

You can see Few in the background like What???

I have no idea what a foul is from that game. None.

I do know Collins was maybe the most important player in that game. And he was neutralized by the officials.

In games like that one last night, the refs themselves start to think, "There have been enough whistles already, now we're trying to find stuff to let go." :noidea: