There have been thousands of championship games in

[Fireball Jr.]

LeBron James‏ @KingJames
Man I can't watch this anymore man! I would like to see the kids decide who wins the game! I mean Bruh!! Smh11:11 PM · Apr 3, 2017
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LBJ and other pros agree on the reffing.
Pro athletes voice their disgust at NCAA championship game refs

I'm going to clean my palate tonight with a good dose of NBA. Playoffs start soon, greatest show on Earth.

 

[Cowtown]

The one where the Big Pole threw his hip out was about the only one I thought was an actual foul. Somebody that big could hurt someone.

No problem there. I think they got Collins on an invention early in the first half. When that happened that early, I said "Uh oh, that's not a good sign ..."

edit: another problem on plays like that is the ball handlers don't know how to use the screen. The ball handler should actually be close enough to brush the screening player, but they go way too wide and allow the defender to get through too easily. So the screening player starts to lean and ...

And using a player like Karnowski to screen the perimeter is so stupid. Everyone knows the guard isn't going to dump it to him on the roll because it's a strip or an offensive foul just waiting to happen, so the hedge cancels the whole play.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

No problem there. I think they got Collins on an invention early in the first half. When that happened that early, I said "Uh oh, that's not a good sign ..."

Let me ask you this. Whose call was it for that out of bounds play that should have been but wasn't called. I know the official right there should have had it, but he's also watching to see if they kill each other down there, and get the tie up (he completely anticipated the tie-up). The official across the court had a direct view of the play and had to see the hand go out or at least made the other guy aware of the possibility.

Earlier in that you can see he's got no screen whatsoever. Why not go over and make sure the other guy was aware of the possibility?

Few on late missed call: 'Just the way it goes'

 

[SoBeCuse]

I suppose it just gets confusing. Collins' fourth foul has very little contact. Foul called. The play where Goss-Williams gets hurt, Pinson has two hands on him pushing him out for a good 5 feet out at the three point line.

You can see Few in the background like What???

I have no idea what a foul is from that game. None.

I do know Collins was maybe the most important player in that game. And he was neutralized by the officials.

Collins is GOOD!!

 

[RF2044]

The fouls on rebounding are the ones that really bother me. Sometimes, a guy is just actually taller than another player, so it's not actually an over the back call.

But let them battle a bit for some of these rebounds, please.

Completely agree. It drives me nuts when they call fouls on incidental contact that has zero impact on the play, and doesn't provide an advantage one way or the other. These are big guys, not all contact has to be whistled. Example--two guys go up for a rebound, there's a bit of contact, one guy easily secures it. Ref blows a whistle behind the play to call a foul based upon the contact.

Again, the rule of thumb should be did the contact advantage or disadvantage the two players, and did it have an impact on the play's outcome?

 

[OrangeDW]

Exactly

This isn't like pickup ball with a bunch of idiots that argue every single call you make even though they are wrong 100% of the time...but it's like arguing with a brick wall. In fact Id rather smash my head into a brick wall.

Yes this has happened to me a few times over the years.

How about the people who spend 5 minutes arguing what the score is, multiple times per run? Retracing their steps on who scored when, and everything. The worst.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

How about the people who spend 5 minutes arguing what the score is, multiple times per run? Retracing their steps on who scored when, and everything. The worst.

That happens almost every game. I don't hate it as much as arguing fouls. I rarely keep track of the score, but I remember if I scored. Usually. And I always know when I foul a guy or get fouled. Respect the call.

 

[Cowtown]

LBJ and other pros agree on the reffing.
Pro athletes voice their disgust at NCAA championship game refs

I'm going to clean my palate tonight with a good dose of NBA. Playoffs start soon, greatest show on Earth.

Most NBA players, especially LBJ (and I know he's your guy) know bupkis about officials especially at the college level because they spent so little time there. The one NBA rule they do know is the star gets every call. I'd bet my last dollar that there isn't one player in the league who's seen the inside of a rule book - either the NCAA's or the NBA's. Hell, most of the coaches haven't either. The announcers are even worse. I cringe when I think about HS & college players listing to the absolutely stupid things they say (and Bill Walton is the worst). Whaddaya gonna do? :noidea:

At this time of year I'm just glad basketball is over. I probably won't watch anything more until the NBA finals, and even then probably just the 4th Q's.

 

[Cowtown]

Completely agree. It drives me nuts when they call fouls on incidental contact that has zero impact on the play, and doesn't provide an advantage one way or the other. These are big guys, not all contact has to be whistled. Example--two guys go up for a rebound, there's a bit of contact, one guy easily secures it. Ref blows a whistle behind the play to call a foul based upon the contact.

Again, the rule of thumb should be did the contact advantage or disadvantage the two players, and did it have an impact on the play's outcome?

Well put. There's almost always some contact on the rebound. If the player who gets the rebound lands in balance, is not displaced and does not lose control of the ball, you disadvantage him by not allowing him to make a play off that - whether it's a put back, or starting a break the other way. The quick whistle is not the game's best friend.

 

[ROCcuse]

I suppose it just gets confusing. Collins' fourth foul has very little contact. Foul called. The play where Goss-Williams gets hurt, Pinson has two hands on him pushing him out for a good 5 feet out at the three point line.

You can see Few in the background like What???

I have no idea what a foul is from that game. None.

I do know Collins was maybe the most important player in that game. And he was neutralized by the officials.

UNC turned into Louisville, or more extremely, Pitt, after the half with the handchecking imo, because they knew they could get away with it/ the refs couldn't possibly call more fouls

 

[Bayside44]

44 fouls, and missed possession calls. Way to go stripes.

 

[dollarbill44]

I agree with the out of bounds calls, several of them, but replays showed many of the fouls were fouls. There was one or two I recall that no one was touched, but both of these teams played tight man-to-man defense and there were definitely plenty of fouls being made.

This was my take as well. I guess we've gotten so accustomed to moving screens, clutch and hold defense, etc that we get mad when they actually call fouls. I don't have a problem with how last night's game was called if the refs hadn't been letting them get away with this type of play the whole tournament. The last two games before this, Karnowski was literally knocking guys to the floor and draping himself over them and not getting called (typical Buzz Williams Marquette stuff). How about Meeks' rebound at the end of the Oregon game where he bowled over two players to get the board. Last night, the refs decided to put an end to it in the second half.

 

[dollarbill44]

Contact doesn't always mean there is a foul. If no advantage is gained, there is no foul.

I'm not sure that's the rule on fouls.

 

[Cowtown]

I'm not sure that's the rule on fouls.

It's not about "the rule" here. The rule states that contact creating an advantage/disadvantage is a foul. The issue here is how that's applied in that situation.

 

[Cowtown]

Let me ask you this. Whose call was it for that out of bounds play that should have been but wasn't called. I know the official right there should have had it, but he's also watching to see if they kill each other down there, and get the tie up (he completely anticipated the tie-up). The official across the court had a direct view of the play and had to see the hand go out or at least made the other guy aware of the possibility.

View attachment 94456

Earlier in that you can see he's got no screen whatsoever. Why not go over and make sure the other guy was aware of the possibility?

Few on late missed call: 'Just the way it goes'

Just saw this. In the first place, I don't know what the NCAA rule states, but in FIBA that's a still a "held ball" regardless. I don't like the rule, but that's what it is.

What I can't tell by that pic is when in the sequence it was taken - as in, before or after the hand was on the line. I'm assuming it was before. So the "held ball" would have occurred prior to the hand touching the line, which is then completely incidental. There's always a certain latency between when the official says "Okay, I've got a held ball here" and blows the whistle, and when the players/coaches/fans hear it, look at the official for the signal, then back at the players who have usually moved some by then.

 

[dollarbill44]

edit: another problem on plays like that is the ball handlers don't know how to use the screen. The ball handler should actually be close enough to brush the screening player, but they go way too wide and allow the defender to get through too easily. So the screening player starts to lean and ...

I can't agree with this enough. This drives me crazy all season long, along with all of the other "fundamentals" we were taught as kids that almost no one seems to know anymore. Players are bigger, stronger, faster than they used to be and they shoot so much better as well (from distance, mind you, not so much from inside the arc), but they know so little of the fundamentals that would make them much more efficient players and better teammates.

 

[RF2044]

Well put. There's almost always some contact on the rebound. If the player who gets the rebound lands in balance, is not displaced and does not lose control of the ball, you disadvantage him by not allowing him to make a play off that - whether it's a put back, or starting a break the other way. The quick whistle is not the game's best friend.

I honestly appreciate the perspective you bring to these discussions as an actual ref. And I think that most people realize that as the game gets faster and the players bigger / more athletic, that it is increasingly more difficult to get calls right in real time.

Not shooting the messenger here at all. It just goes to show how disruptive poor officiating can be. Systemic issue right now in college ball that won't be solved until there is some standardized way to hold refs accountable. Don't see that happening until they are employees instead of contractors -- there are just too many NCAA games for them all to be full time employees.

 

[Cowtown]

I honestly appreciate the perspective you bring to these discussions as an actual ref. And I think that most people realize that as the game gets faster and the players bigger / more athletic, that it is increasingly more difficult to get calls right in real time.

Not shooting the messenger here at all. It just goes to show how disruptive poor officiating can be. Systemic issue right now in college ball that won't be solved until there is some standardized way to hold refs accountable. Don't see that happening until they are employees instead of contractors -- there are just too many NCAA games for them all to be full time employees.

Here's an interesting question: Is it still amateur basketball if we have two of the three components (coaches and referees) employed as professionals?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Just saw this. In the first place, I don't know what the NCAA rule states, but in FIBA that's a still a "held ball" regardless. I don't like the rule, but that's what it is.

What I can't tell by that pic is when in the sequence it was taken - as in, before or after the hand was on the line. I'm assuming it was before. So the "held ball" would have occurred prior to the hand touching the line, which is then completely incidental. There's always a certain latency between when the official says "Okay, I've got a held ball here" and blows the whistle, and when the players/coaches/fans hear it, look at the official for the signal, then back at the players who have usually moved some by then.

It was after the touch out of bounds. I really don't think the held ball really happened until Karnowsky jumped into the pile.

 

[Cowtown]

It was after the touch out of bounds. I really don't think the held ball really happened until Karnowsky jumped into the pile.

I can't speak for Eades (I think that's him at lead) but I figure that's "preventive officiating." I know I've blown the whistle on plays similar to that to prevent players from getting hurt in what becomes more like a loose ruck in a rugby match. From what I saw on the replay, I think there was enough contested possession between Melson and Meeks to make the call before someone the size of Karnowski dives in because there was no whistle. Yes, I know he did, and fortunately no one was hurt because he didn't really jump on top of Meeks, but it could have been much worse.

Now, I know I've spoken against the "quick whistle" but in this specific situation it's a benefit to all involved.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I can't speak for Eades (I think that's him at lead) but I figure that's "preventive officiating." I know I've blown the whistle on plays similar to that to prevent players from getting hurt in what becomes more like a loose ruck in a rugby match. From what I saw on the replay, I think there was enough contested possession between Melson and Meeks to make the call before someone the size of Karnowski dives in because there was no whistle. Yes, I know he did, and fortunately no one was hurt because he didn't really jump on top of Meeks, but it could have been much worse.

Now, I know I've spoken against the "quick whistle" but in this specific situation it's a benefit to all involved.

I was so afraid he was just going to pile on, but even he realized that wouldn't be good for anyone. He seemed to ease himself down, as many 300 pounders would do in that same case.

 

[CorduroyG]

college hoops referees are the worst refs/umpires/judges in any sport.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

college hoops referees are the worst refs/umpires/judges in any sport.

Yeah, I've been to a number of U14 AAU tournaments lately and I'm pretty sure the guys I've been seeing working these games would give them a run for their money on being the worstest.

 

[Cowtown]

college hoops referees are the worst refs/umpires/judges in any sport.

I guess you don't watch the Olympics too closely, huh?

 

[AZOrange]

I thought the refs flat out missed some calls, turnovers etc. I also thought the Flagrant 1 on karnowski was bad.

That said the NCAA has made it very clear that the game needs to change and this was an example of it. I have no problem with how this is called. I have a problem with the consistency over the course of a year (it doesn't exist). The physical stuff and impeding movement needs to end.

We complain when there are no calls and complain when there are too many.