Thinking about Turnover and Next Years Lineup

[AZOrange]

He most definitely has the talent. He is a Kadary type player. The question for him is will he grow as a basketball player and use his talent to the best of his ability. Play within himself. If so, his ceiling is as high as we have had in a very long time. If not i agree.

Eh…he makes a few good plays and some really bad ones. His emotions get the best of him at times. If he comes back so be it

 

[FrancoPizza]

Eh…he makes a few good plays and some really bad ones. His emotions get the best of him at times. If he comes back so be it

I also don’t think his handle is tight enough to be PG. kadary was steady. I hold my breath with Q every time he dribbles because it’s a 50/50 deal.

 

[AZOrange]

I also don’t think his handle is tight enough to be PG. kadary was steady. I hold my breath with Q every time he dribbles because it’s a 50/50 deal.

Yeah and does random around the worlds between his legs before he dribbles. Literally no one in basketball does taht

 

[NineOneSeven]

Judah, Bell, Taylor, Carey, transfer. Hima retires. Hope like heck we can hang on to Maliq.

If Bell doesn’t transfer I’d say Q does.

Yikes.

 

[5OutFred]

Judah, Bell, Taylor, Carey, transfer. Hima retires. Hope like heck we can hang on to Maliq.

If Bell doesn’t transfer I’d say Q does.

It's a daunting turnover, but Red doesn't have time (years) to play around with guys that don't fit his vision and buy in for the program. Major programs are doing this type of overhaul almost yearly.

Outside of Maliq, what's needed to be done will be done. I trust Red here.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Here's my wish list...

Benny, Judah, Taylor, Carey, and Hima gone

Incoming - Freeman, Moore, portal pg, portal , portal c (All starting caliber)

1. Portal PG
2. Jj
3. Portal or Freeman
4. Maliq
5. Portal C

Cope, Westry, Freeman/portal , Bell, and McLeod off the bench for a 10 man rotation.

Moore is 11th man and Cuffe is 12th. No clue how good Westry will be though after 2 back to back injuries so maybe Moore slides into the rotation.

Moore is going to play. Copeland will likely start if Judah isn't here.

 

[IthacaMatt]

He brought in 4 portal players and 3 of then had injuries last year. He knew he needed a forward and didn't bring one in. The existing players weren't good in either system. I question all of the coaches ability to evaluate talent.

Well, they did sign 2 very good high schoolers. So, let's give them 1 more window. If they can't bring in 3 players who can help us, then I join you in your judgment.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Everyone is dissing Taylor. Do you realize we only have six players right now that play on the team and he is one of them? Don’t you think deserves some credit for being there every game? Have you ever seen any plays that are run specifically for him? He moves on the floor for both offense and defense, set picks and at least tries for rebounds.

yeah unfortunately for this season Taylor is an essential piece

Prjecting to next season - I hope that is not the case...

I mean - do you seriously want Taylor to be a starter next year??

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Judah, Bell, Taylor, Carey, transfer. Hima retires. Hope like heck we can hang on to Maliq.

If Bell doesn’t transfer I’d say Q does.

I'm going to be pissed if we can only realistically keep 1 of Bell and Copeland.

I understand how it could come down to that, and I'm prepared to be pissed, but that's taking a step back to take some steps forward that are no sure thing.

 

[FireballPhil]

Don't think Q goes anywhere. I was wondering too, but after the NC win and seeing his interaction with Red, they obviously have a great relationship. I don't think JJ leaves, he has become a de facto star on his hometown team. Bell is 50/50, but would another high major pick him up? I think he has improved so I would like for him to stay provided his attitude is in line. Maliq I am interested to see him more at the 4, seeing what kind of shot he has consistently from outside of 14 ft. He is such a special player, I really hope NIL is taking care of him. The question with Taylor is can he learn to shoot under pressure? He works hard, but is that enough? I would rather keep him than 4 centers though. Judah...so much potential...probably the most frustrating thing is we have three coaches who were guards yet they can't teach him what he needs to succeed. Yet he is another who has changed his play through out the year for the better. He also did the same thing last year. Would a return year be rinse and repeat? Or would he build and improve? Would having more consistent shooters change his game for the better? I honestly don't know what is best for his game- transfer? Go overseas? G league? Or stay and listen to 3 very good guard coaches and improve his game?

All the rest, injuries suck for both them and the team. None of us really know enough about them to draw conclusions. Are they hitting the weight room and working hard? If possible, are they shooting multiple reps, even if just at the free throw line? If they are working hard and improving then keep them and give them a year to prove themselves. If not, cut them loose.

JJ and Bell can both generally shoot and should get better. We need at least one more good shooter to get good spacing. Can Freeman and/or Moore be that? Or possibly Maliq? We really really need rebounders. I don't see based on the limited time how McCloud is the answer, Carey is interesting, and Patterson is unproven. Based on what we know, which really isn't much, Hima and McCloud should leave. Taylor a huge question mark. Cuffe a question mark. It all depends on what the coaches see in practice. If they honestly believe there is room for improvement, or if they have reached their ceiling. I have to trust the coaches because they see it every day. They have seen the attitudes. They know who has worked hard and who will be a good teammate. And the coaches want to win. They also want to do what is right by the players. Ultimately, at least for now, they are all preparing these kids for life.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Copeland starting PG and add the best shooter you can find in the portal. Get a D first rebounding forward.

Moore and Westry push for Cope and JJs minutes. Freeman is Taylor replacement and starts. Malik and Naheem play center. Bell and 2 transfers the other forwards.

Probably not enough minutes to keep all those guys happy.

 

[pokercuse08]

Q is not a starting talent for any of our better teams. Not consistent enough. The occasional flashes don’t offset the boneheaded forced turnovers. This won’t cut it if we have top 25 aspirations. We’ve been desensitized by 10 years of mediocre talent.

Right. Q is just a perfect sixth man on a good team. I'd like to see him develop two gears. A cruise control gear where he's focused on playing within himself and the primary goal is to get the team into the offense and not make mistakes - that's his PG gear when he's spelling the starter and going up against someone who's a good defender against him off the dribble. The other would be his attack off the dribble gear, which he'd ideally use when he's playing the 3 and has a mismatch in speed/agility.

I think the matchups should determine where he's used the most, but I think he's at his most valuable when he can play point SF. When he can draw a defender who cannot stop him from penetrating, and then either attack the rim or distribute to the PF or C - he's a great passer in tight spaces.

He's also shown an ability to be a really dangerous defensive weapon if opponents have a 3 who is good offensively but a little loose with the ball and not fast enough to get around Q.

 

[billsin01]

Q is not a starting talent for any of our better teams. Not consistent enough. The occasional flashes don’t offset the boneheaded forced turnovers. This won’t cut it if we have top 25 aspirations. We’ve been desensitized by 10 years of mediocre talent.

He’s had two or fewer turnovers in nine straight league games. He does get loose with the ball at times and there will be the occasional brutal turnover, but he’s also our most creative offensive player by a mile.

The problem with this board is that so many folks make declarations like he’s not starting talent. Copeland could start and be part of a very good team here. Same for Brown and JJ. Bell might be more of offense/shooting off the bench, but he could be part of a good team as well. Judah is frustrating but he’s a very, very good player nonetheless.

What we need to be able to do is find the right mix and next season with a few additions and likely a few departures and hope Red makes some progress as well. Will it happen? Not sure. Is red the guy Lon term? Jury remains out. Will we be basking in the glow of our return to prominence next season, I doubt it.

But people need to stop writing off every player who’s not Carmelo or sherm. We have some pieces, we need some more but we’re really not THAT far away from this team being in the tourney conversation. A healthy westry could make a bit of a difference. Freeman could make a bit of a difference. Maybe Brown continues to grow. Maybe we add a key portal piece or two. But swapping the entire roster down the toilet and bringing in 11 transfers doesn’t guarantee us a thing.

 

[billsin01]

Just posted this in SWC’s thread but adding it here.

Counting last night, JT:

7.6 PER
41.9% true shooting

He can’t be playing. Those numbers are anemic. The fact he’s starting is insane.

Except it’s not. We have zero bodies. He’s our no. 2 big for all intents and purposes. Been a miserable year for him, for sure, and not sure what the future holds, but he’s going to average 15 mpg the rest of the season because there is no one else.

 

[billsin01]

Really nice analysis.

My only point of disagreement is that Taylor has to go. He just has not shown anything close to high D1 skills IMHO. There are lots of threads out there about how Red is doing - how would any high D1 coach do with Justin as a starter ???

I think Bell comes back as he is our best three point shooter despite other weaknesses in his game.

Carey needs to go, the injuries have totally set back his development. We dont need another injury/developmental risk on the roster, we need to replace him with a starting caliber 5 from the portal.

If we are able to portal in a starting caliber PG then probably Cuffe or Westry go as between JJ, Cope, Moore, and the new starter the backcourt would be looking pretty crowded.

I just don’t like talking about specifically pushing kids out the door. I feel ok about it with Hima just because I don’t get the sense he’s healthy enough to play.

I’m basically with you though. Tough to say what Taylor’s upside is because his confidence is clearly shot offensively. But either way, he probably has a better opportunity elsewhere.

Carey, I think the question is how healthy is he and do they feel he can genuinely be healthy going forward. Agree, might be too much of a gamble, but that’s the question on him. They don’t really need his scoring but could use his size and athleticism if he was genuinely healthy. Patterson could be a factor too. Do they think he could provide some minutes next year? That might impact that decision as well.

Bell is interesting too. He genuinely scores the ball well and probably could be even better. But he stands in one spot and watches offensively. I think I only remember him coming a screen for a bucket once earlier in the season (I’m sure it’s happened more, but it’s not a common sight). And outside of putting the ball in the basket? Nada. So I would think he’s the one who’s back, but I’m not totally sure.

 

[PauliePeppas]

Taylor and Brown are tight from back home in hs. Seems like a forgotten factor in people ready to kick JT to the curb…

 

[newmexicuse]

I just don’t like talking about specifically pushing kids out the door. I feel ok about it with Hima just because I don’t get the sense he’s healthy enough to play.

I’m basically with you though. Tough to say what Taylor’s upside is because his confidence is clearly shot offensively. But either way, he probably has a better opportunity elsewhere.

Carey, I think the question is how healthy is he and do they feel he can genuinely be healthy going forward. Agree, might be too much of a gamble, but that’s the question on him. They don’t really need his scoring but could use his size and athleticism if he was genuinely healthy. Patterson could be a factor too. Do they think he could provide some minutes next year? That might impact that decision as well.

Bell is interesting too. He genuinely scores the ball well and probably could be even better. But he stands in one spot and watches offensively. I think I only remember him coming a screen for a bucket once earlier in the season (I’m sure it’s happened more, but it’s not a common sight). And outside of putting the ball in the basket? Nada. So I would think he’s the one who’s back, but I’m not totally sure.

I agree nobody should be forced out, but if a kid is not likely to get minutes, the staff should be up front about that.

 

[CardiacCuse]

None of us have seen Patterson play. Griff was very complementary of him, saying he is ahead of where Edwards was when he was a freshman.

If you want Carey gone, you and I have watched very different games where he has played. I see an aggressive, athletic guy who has a chance to be a good player. The form on his shot looks good, and he doesn't back down. He has good awareness. (Referring specifically to taking a jump shot to avoid a shot clock violation.)

He is also engaged. He talked about paying attention to what was happening on the court so he had an idea of what he needed to do when he went in the game.

You have to realize he lost 2 years. He is a freshman in terms of eligibility. His growth could be exponential. I see him as more of a 4 than a 5, but we will have to see what Red does. The coaches see him in practice, and will have an idea of his ceiling.


You want to run that guy off the team?

Hima was a good back up to Jesse. He had 47 (19 Off.) rebounds and 26 blocks in 200 minutes last year. His per 40 minute numbers were 9.4 rebounds (4.8 Off) and 5.2 blocks. We would take that all day from a starting center. Unfortunately, his physical injuries seem to be too much for him to be considered. He may just want to walk away.

I'm ok with McCloud. If he leaves, ok. If we recruit over him, fine. He will be a good practice foe, who can give minutes in games.

I feel badly for Taylor. I think if he could get some shots to fall, his confidence would soar and he could be an effective player. His defense is as good as our starting guards, and he is playing out of position against bigger guys. As a 2G, he might have a better time getting shots off against non-forwards. I would not be surprised if he left, but coach won't run him off. He works hard, and if you read between the lines, he is one of few who understand the defensive assignments and rotations. He has value right now, you just have to look for it.

i mean - I dont wanna seem coldhearted or unsympathetic to these players - I feel like they could all really use our support and that the onlne critiques do make their impact on their play - for instance, Im sure taylor hears the noise loud and clear...and it is hurting his play

ive been thinking lately...we should all be just sending our positive vibes to the players...they need it.

but then I remember they are getting paid...and that they can transfer out at any time...and that they have often acted extremely entitled and immature in recent years...as a trend.


idk...

I think your orange colored assessments are simply pipe dreams, in many ways...


some of these guys might make a leap if they stayed...maaaaaybe...but its far from a sure thing

if patterson was so good...he should be playing right now...for a team that just got outrebounded 48-29...if he cant help a team like that...i have zero hope for him.

taylor and carey are total projects...who have shown severe limitations to their games...yeah they could blow up ...but why wait around for that when the portal is open every offseason?

i would prefer to grab 4th and 5th year players that actually are polished basketball players and fill out the roster with those types

this isnt 1998 anymore

if it was, then yeah, I would be on board with keeping more of these current players.

in this era every offseason is a re-build...and there isnt really much there with the current team that would be so devastating to try and re-build...I do want a bunch of the players to come back - brown, jj, westry, copeland, especially. ...

but these team needs vets and big bodies that can control the paint and play maturely. NOT PROJECTS.

id much rather bring in some 22/23 year olds and fill the roster out like that, if possible. ...(and I do think it is highly possible)

this team needs seniors and leaders...im sure they are out there...

 

[CardiacCuse]

I think one of the main issues with the roster turnover is that we have a few guys who I would be fine with staying, in the right role. Obviously we need to lose enough of them to be able to go get the portal PG, C, and 3 point shooter that we need.

Like, Westry's been hurt, not his fault. I don't want him gone, but also I don't think we can count on him going into next year as a major contributor. Taylor can't shoot, but he plays hard so I don't hate the guy or feel like he HAS to go. I'd be okay with him coming back as a bottom of the roster guy who has a longshot chance at finding his confidence and becoming valuable situationally. I feel similarly about Cuffe, I don't want him back as a major part of the rotation, but a down the roster guy? OK. Bell likewise, if we had enough talent I'd say "Hey, maybe he develops. If not, he can ride the bench and we've got other guys who can play."

Ironically, the guy I think I most want to see gone is Judah, because I just don't think he plays winning basketball. He's not a PG, and he's not a good outside shooter, and if he comes back that's 33 minutes a game at the 1 or 2 that's not going to a PG or a good outside shooter, and it's a detriment to getting a PG or a good outside shooter in the portal.

Anyway we pretty desperately need three portals we can count on (PG, 3 point shooter at the 2/3, C), plus our two incoming freshman, so we need to open up five scholarships. Benny is 1. So basically four of the above five players need to be gone.

As it stands we currently have:

Combo Guards who Can't Shoot 3's:
Judah, Copeland, Westry, JJ (he's showing signs of becoming a decent 3 point shooter), Cuffe

3 and D forwards who can only do one or the other:
Taylor, Bell

Power Forwards:
Maliq

Injured Centers:
McLeod, Hima

TBD:
Carey, Patterson

Dismissed:
Benny

I would argue the only two pieces that we know we can count on that actually fit on a good team in the starting lineup are Maliq at the 4 and JJ at the 2. Starling is shooting 37% from three his last 10 games, which would be top-10 in conference play in the ACC this year if it were for the full season. That's good enough for a guy who can also drive and distribute, and spell the PG. Maliq is obviously a starting 4 on a good team.

Judah is not a PG, he's only shooting 23% from 3 in conference play, he's too reliant on getting to the free throw line, and gambles too much on defense. I doubt he'd take kindly to being a sixth man "instant offense" type, so...

Copeland on the other hand seems like a good, versatile 6th man. He plays hard, he can play multiple positions, he's high energy.

I'm worried Red will gamble on guys developing, and keep Taylor and Cuffe, leaving us with one less portal player than we need.

there's only so much room on any roster for "projects"

you can carry a couple...but there are way too many on this current roster that are merely projects and not ready to help the team win right now...hence the 6 man rotation at the moment

in the portal era, it makes less sense than ever to invest in "projects"

some of this isnt red's fault but thats why you cannot carry a bunch of NON CONTRIBUTORS

my wish for the roster this offseason is that any player who will not be likely to be able to help the team win games next season will not be brought back. plain and simple.

i want a full roster of players capable of contributing. is that really that crazy??

 

[hoopsupstate]

By the way, I do now think the NIT would be valuable to these guys. If that's where we end up, I'd start...

1 - Mintz
2 - Starling
3 - Copeland
4 - Maliq
5 - Carey

Could be valuable experience for Carey, gives Maliq a chance to play the right position.

Bell comes off the bench at the 3. Give Cuffe decent minutes and see what he can do with them. Bring Taylor off the bench... wherever.

That might be the all time worse shooting team in SU history.

 

[pokercuse08]

That might be the all time worse shooting team in SU history.

Who cares? It's the NIT. See what Carey can do at this point, and evaluate accordingly. Not like starting Taylor improves the shooting. Bell, sure, at a cost. And we've seen him play extensively.

 

[phil77]

Judah, Bell, Taylor, Carey, transfer. Hima retires. Hope like heck we can hang on to Maliq.

If Bell doesn’t transfer I’d say Q does.

If Q thinks he is a starter and wants to start he can leave as well.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Taylor and Brown are tight from back home in hs. Seems like a forgotten factor in people ready to kick JT to the curb…

On a better team Taylor could just defend and rebound and only shoot when hes wide open. We have 13 scholarships and don't ever play that many guys if he wants to say and Moore and Freeman have to take his minutes that is fine.

His struggles this year have shown there is no real upside and we are probably best to move on.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

If Q thinks he is a starter and wants to start he can leave as well.

Id rather keep Q than JJ or Judah.

 

[phil77]

Id rather keep Q than JJ or Judah.

I would rather keep JJ. Q is super overrated by this board. He isn't consistent enough of a playmaker to overcome his terrible shooter to have him as a starter at a top 25-level team we all want to get back to. Copeland is who is he. He isn't going to magically be some controlled level-headed point guard capable of calming a team down and getting them in position to win close ball games against top-level competition and he isn't going to suddenly become a knockdown shooter. To try to make him into that will be doing Copeland a disservice.

Copeland is a bench player to provides spark and energy when the starters don't bring it. He is literally in his perfect role now. Counting on him to be the starting PG the next two seasons will have Red fired.