Tim Duncan or Larry Bird? | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Tim Duncan or Larry Bird?

I didn't realize (until I just looked it up) that Walton only scored 6,215 points in his entire NBA career.
I never got to see Walton in his prime. I know he dominated at UCLA, but I'd like to hear from some of the fans who saw him healthy in the NBA. As you mentioned, his stats don't really jump out much, but he spent a significant amount of time injured.
 
Prime for prime, I take Bill Walton over Duncan. He was Duncan with a bit better offensive game, a better passer. Bill Walton's injuries (and depression from the Portland weather) cut short what probably would have been a Top 10 all-time career.


Walton had what 2 really good prime years? You cant really make the speculation he would have been a top 10 because there is no way to know that. I also dont feel he was a bit better than Duncan offensively either. A better passer sure as he was probably the 2nd best passing big man ever. But Duncan is a very good passer as well.
 
I never got to see Walton in his prime. I know he dominated at UCLA, but I'd like to hear from some of the fans who saw him healthy in the NBA. As you mentioned, his stats don't really jump out much, but he spent a significant amount of time injured.
When healthy, Walton arguably played the game as well as any big man ever has. But we only saw a glimpse of that in the NBA. The injury-shortened NFL career of Gale Sayers was similarly brilliant.
 
He was Duncan with a bit better offensive game

Matt, I'm interested in your thoughts as to Walton having a better offensive game than Duncan. In his MVP season, Walton's scoring peaked at 19 per game, while Duncan has averaged over 20 ppg over his entire 1200 game career.
 
Matt, I'm interested in your thoughts as to Walton having a better offensive game than Duncan. In his MVP season, Walton's scoring peaked at 19 per game, while Duncan has averaged over 20 ppg over his entire 1200 game career.


Well, my opinion is clouded by my fondness for Walton as a player, and certainly a lot of time has passed. But I think that Walton blended in better with his teammates, although Duncan is certainly good at that, too. It's a small degree of difference between them in my mind, and Duncan deserves the nod in all-time polls due to his longevity.

But at his peak, Walton got more assists per game, he ignited the fast break with great outlet passing as well as anybody. He was like a point center in a Princeton style offense. Looking at their stats, Duncan outscored Walton, but Duncan was the offensive focal point for his Spurs teams. He scored more, but they ran the offense through him more on the low block and he got many more FG attempts than Walton.

Walton, however, shot a consistently better percentage from the field than Duncan has done throughout his career, Walton almost always putting up 52-53% FG while Duncan mostly was below 50%.

Duncan's offensive production differential over Walton is due in large part to Duncan getting to the line a lot, because he plays mostly on the low block. Walton, being more of a Princeton style high post center got to the line far less, but his assist numbers were nearly always a lot better than Duncan, and Walton got a lot of steals on defense, far more than Duncan.

To me, Walton was the quintessential thinking-man's center. Duncan is very much like that, too, and we are really splitting hairs here. But I just think Walton's offense and his overall game were a little better than Tim Duncan's. He helped the offense flow and ignited the fast break a bit better than Duncan.
 
Wow... Russell Westbrook has a torn meniscus and is out indefinitely.

Duncan's chances of getting Ring #5 just went up a little bit.
 
Wow... Russell Westbrook has a torn meniscus and is out indefinitely.

Duncan's chances of getting Ring #5 just went up a little bit.
unless LBJ goes down, nobody's chances are getting any better
 
I never got to see Walton in his prime. I know he dominated at UCLA, but I'd like to hear from some of the fans who saw him healthy in the NBA. As you mentioned, his stats don't really jump out much, but he spent a significant amount of time injured.


His Portland team, with Maurice Lucas at PF, was kind of like the Phoenix Suns with Nash, Stoudamire and Marion the way they ran the break. They had toughness, their guards were kind of anonymous guys, but they were effective role players. They had a stretch of about a year and a half that matches up with the top teams in NBA history with about an 85% winning percentage. Bill Walton's passing, shot blocking and overall floor game are on display in this clip from the 1977 NBA Finals, Game 6 against a Philly Sixers all star lineup featuring Dr. J in his prime.

 
Wow... Russell Westbrook has a torn meniscus and is out indefinitely.

Duncan's chances of getting Ring #5 just went up a little bit.

It's a 2-3 week injury. So by NBA playoff standards, that should put him back by game 5 of this series or so.
 
unless LBJ goes down, nobody's chances are getting any better

I certainly don't disagree with that - the Heat are the overriding favorite.
 
His Portland team, with Maurice Lucas at PF, was kind of like the Phoenix Suns with Nash, Stoudamire and Marion the way they ran the break. They had toughness, their guards were kind of anonymous guys, but they were effective role players. They had a stretch of about a year and a half that matches up with the top teams in NBA history with about an 85% winning percentage. Bill Walton's passing, shot blocking and overall floor game are on display in this clip from the 1977 NBA Finals, Game 6 against a Philly Sixers all star lineup featuring Dr. J in his prime.
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And check out this highlight clip of the 1986 Celtics as maybe the best passing NBA team ever.

 
I thought Walton was going to have far superior assist numbers to Duncan, I was kinda surprised. Per 36 minutes, Walton averaged 4.3 assists and Duncan 3.1. But a lot of that is a function of the faster paced game. Walton, for his career, assisted on about 17% of teammate field goals when he was on the court. For a big, that is a great, great #. But Duncan, for his career, is 16.5%. Walton's peak year was 78, when the assist% was over 22. Duncan's career high is 19.

True shooting% wise, the two are nearly identical, 55.2% for Duncan vs 55.1% for Walton. (Hard to compare two guys with differing career lengths like that, but there you go).

The one thing that really struck me from scanning Walton's bbref page; he was a beast on the defensive glass. 4 years leading the league in defensive rebounding%.
 
Thanks Ithaca & Br. Do you think Walton would have gotten into the HOF without being able to take his UCLA career into account?
 
"Larry is a very good player, an exceptional talent. But, if he were black, he'd be just another good guy."
 
His Portland team, with Maurice Lucas at PF, was kind of like the Phoenix Suns with Nash, Stoudamire and Marion the way they ran the break. They had toughness, their guards were kind of anonymous guys, but they were effective role players. They had a stretch of about a year and a half that matches up with the top teams in NBA history with about an 85% winning percentage. Bill Walton's passing, shot blocking and overall floor game are on display in this clip from the 1977 NBA Finals, Game 6 against a Philly Sixers all star lineup featuring Dr. J in his prime.


That kid sitting on the sideline had a great view of the game!
 
"Larry is a very good player, an exceptional talent. But, if he were black, he'd be just another good guy."
Yeah, Zeke was never too popular around Boston after that...Not that he was much beforehand. Great talent though
 
Yeah, Zeke was never too popular around Boston after that...Not that he was much beforehand. Great talent though

Everything about Isiah Thomas' personality creeps me out, but I think he's one of the most underrated players in NBA history. He never seems to come up in a discussion of all-time greats.

I can't remember who said it (someone very reputable, like Kareem), but some Hall of Famer said that if Isiah was 6'6" instead of 5'11" he would have been the greatest player ever.
 
"Larry is a very good player, an exceptional talent. But, if he were black, he'd be just another good guy."


Well, if "just another good guy" gets 3 championship titles, then I guess so, but that's obviously not the case.

Sure, Larry got the hype from a certain subtle (and not so subtle) pro-white-guy bias in those ancient "Who's better Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?" arguments.

But Larry Bird was an all-time great player, not just an all-time great WHITE player.
 
Well, if "just another good guy" gets 3 championship titles, then I guess so, but that's obviously not the case.

Sure, Larry got the hype from a certain subtle (and not so subtle) pro-white-guy bias in those ancient "Who's better Larry Bird or Magic Johnson?" arguments.

But Larry Bird was an all-time great player, not just an all-time great WHITE player.
well, there are two ways to read Isiah's statement. The first, most common reading, was that he was dissing Bird. But you have to ignore his acknowledgement of Bird's "extraordinary talents" to take that interpretation.

The other interpretation is that Isiah wasn't commenting on Bird, but on racism. While Bird is an extraordinary talent, the same talents in a black man would probably only be considered "good."

and you can even read it both ways, that Isiah was delivering both messages at once. that's the way I take it, because there is a bit of truth to both readings.
 
knowing isiah like i do (so not all, but I feel like I do because he ruined my favorite basketball team) I'm going to assume he was taking a shot at Bird and saying people only considered him elite because he was white. Which is absurd.
 
knowing isiah like i do (so not all, but I feel like I do because he ruined my favorite basketball team) I'm going to assume he was taking a shot at Bird and saying people only considered him elite because he was white. Which is absurd.
I think you can make a coherent argument that Bird is somewhat overrated - that he is in the top 20 or 25 but not top 10 - and from there it is not a leap to think that his ethnicity has something to do with his being consistently ranked so much higher. You don't have to agree with the argument, but you can't summarily dismiss it as "absurd"
 
I think you can make a coherent argument that Bird is somewhat overrated - that he is in the top 20 or 25 but not top 10 - and from there it is not a leap to think that his ethnicity has something to do with his being consistently ranked so much higher. You don't have to agree with the argument, but you can't summarily dismiss it as "absurd"

He traded two first rounders for Eddy Curry, I can call anything he says absurd if i want to!

Setting aside my Isiah hate, I doubt you can find even 10 players in the history of the game better than Bird, let alone 15-20. The numbers speak for themselves. He didn't average 24-10-6 on 50% shooting because he was white.
 
The numbers speak for themselves.
the numbers, speaking for themselves, place him 18th all time in PER, for example. And PER undervalues defense, which was not Larry's strong suit and would arguable move some of those behind him, up past him.
 
the numbers, speaking for themselves, place him 18th all time in PER, for example. And PER undervalues defense, which was not Larry's strong suit and would arguable move some of those behind him, up past him.

It also tends to overrate power forwards. (Like I don't think Amare is one of the 26 best players in the history of the game) And also volume shooters; I rerad a study that basically any shot you take as long as you make over 33% or some ridiculously low threshold helps your PER. And you are also including some active players; I don't think you can compare a career rate stat for a guy who is retired to one for players who are still playing. Paul, Wade, Durant; don't really think you can count those guys. And Dr. J is only ahead of Bird if you include the ABA years; in pure NBA PER Bird moves ahead of him.

PER is also just one number. It's nowhere close to a perfect stat. If you think a 6-8 210 pound center who played 60 years ago and shot 44% from the field and only played 516 games in his career is better than Larry Bird (I don't think you do, just saying) then I'm going to have to go ahead and disagree. Bob Petit was legimately a great player, but he was also 6-9 205 and a bruiser type and played a game that didn't feature a ton of black players. I can't really put him ahead of Bird.

Also, I'm not 100% sure how they come up with PER for pre 70's players; they didn't even track turnovers or blocks or steals back then. You have any idea?
I think Bird, Magic, Kareem, and Russell are all in the top 6 or 7 players of all time, and none of them rank in the top 10 of PER. I think David Robinson was great, but I don't think he is one of the five best players of all time. So I'm not going to rely on it for too much.

Actually, taking it a step further, I don't know how many of the all time top 10 in PER I would have in my top ten of all time. Jordan, Lebron, Wilt, maybe Duncan. And that's probably it.

Edit: Went on the website, this is how they handle PER from pre 70's
The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statistics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:
  • Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
  • Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
  • Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
  • Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.
 

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